SE,we Mac users do not deserve this third class treatment!

How well do you expect a GT 650M to perform anyway? I'm on a GTX 850M win8.1 laptop and run at 1920x1080 borderless windowed with dx11 custom settings mostly set to low and most of the dx11 settings off and my laptop runs 30-60 depending on lighting/player swarm (this includes the nthan fate zerg).

I feel like a lot of people are completely missing the point. There are many people who use mac for work. I know people who are designers or are in the arts field and use mac as their primary computer. They also happen to love gaming. Why should they be forced to own two computers when mac should be perfectly capable of handling games at reasonable settings. Further more, mac users paid the same amount for their client as we ps4/ pc users did. Why do they automatically deserve to have a subpar product just because they're using mac?

Most PC gamers regularly swap out components, upgrading bits and pieces as they can afford new things. My desktop on a less than 2 year old build with a 1 year old graphic's card, everything near top of the line at the time. The equivalent iMac would be $3000 or so (although it'd come with retina monitor which would be way nicer than my dual 1080s.)

Mac machines are great for what they are built for - daily use, graphic design, etc. But few of them are purchased at max specs because they're as expensive as hell, and fewer still are upgraded beyond their original specs. It's a point of pride for many mac users to make their machines last for years (I myself have a 2008 ancient Mac I keep for playing with Mac OS stuff.)

Mac users should have realized they paid double the price for half the capabilities...lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeonWhitehart

Surely, PC and PS users are your main player bases. But please don't forget that we Mac users were, some of us are, PC or PS players of FFXIV as well. We do deserve the same level of treatment as everyone else regarding to the quality of game and support.

---

From the interviews with Yoshi-P it's pretty clear that a third party is responsible for the Mac Client, and logically speaking, every time there is a patch for the Windows version, the Mac version has to stay in lock-step, so it's reasonable to conclude that the OS X client is simply the Windows client with a graphics shim somewhere in the rendering layer, and that's probably the reason for the poor performance. Anyone who has ever tried to run a Windows game on Linux or Mac OS using Crossover knows what a pain in the butt this is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raelgun

In fairness OP, theres something you need to take into consideration, not many devs develop mac version of games, when you then take account how many japanese developers are even familiar developing a game for a mac OS is a different beast, does it excuse them, no. However I will be somewhat honest but some expectations of this should of been known to you already. Its not the best thing to say but just wait it out, let the devs get better developing on this platform. I consider FF14 the only well made japanese developed title on a PC, rest of them do not run well even on PC and my system is quite high end.

---

This answer you pulled completely out of your butt.

MacOS X is far easier to develop for, but you're overlooking the fact that Square Enix also has a PS4 version. All versions write to some common graphics layer, and the Windows version writes this to DX9 or DX11, the PS4 version writes this to OpenGL or GNM (I'm not a SE Developer,) and so does the OS X version use OpenGL. There is no direct 1:1 mapping of DX calls to OpenGL , because it's comparing a C++ COM API to a state machine API. It's like comparing a rock to a watermelon, they're both round, but that's about where the similarities end.

Japanese developers are just as familiar with MacOS X. The key thing to consider is that a lot of Japanese software (eg doujinshi stuff, and MMORPG's) are written for Windows because that's the "Adults" computer. The game console is the kids computer. Both the Famicom and the SG-1000 were marketed as computers in Japan while they were marketed as toys in the US and still largely are. So the reason you don't see a lot of Mac OS X games in Japan is the exact same reason it is in the US, everyone builds their "Kids-to-Teens" games for the console and leaves the Windows PC for the Teen to 18+ market.

The market for games is on the PC. It's a catch-22 situation, you can't get people to game on OS X if there's no games, and you can't get people to switch to OS X if their games aren't on it.

Indie developers are far more aware of the need for OS X and Linux versions of their games, but they don't build non-Steam versions of these games because Linux users don't buy games and have awful GPU drivers, and Mac OS X users tend to not have dedicated GPU's. So nobody wants to port a high-end title to either platform because there just IS NOT any high end hardware support to justify it.

Kudos for SE at least trying. It might have made better sense to use have it steam-only license and utilize the PC/Mac version separation on Steam than release a separate license entirely for Mac OS X.

http://i.imgur.com/Vvrefmd.jpg

Eh, I agree if you plan to game on a computer you really should go PC over Mac. But the point here is that SE as a company offered a product that is claimed to work on Mac computers. And according to Mac users, it's not working. That's not the fault of Mac customers, that's fault on SE for not programming it right (if it is indeed faulty programming for the Mac native client). So really all jokes aside, I feel bad for Mac customers ^^; I'd be cheesed off too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Eh, I agree if you plan to game on a computer you really should go PC over Mac. But the point here is that SE as a company offered a product that is claimed to work on Mac computers. And according to Mac users, it's not working. That's not the fault of Mac customers, that's fault on SE for not programming it right (if it is indeed faulty programming for the Mac native client). So really all jokes aside, I feel bad for Mac customers ^^; I'd be cheesed off too.

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Exactly, but so far SE has said nothing to us. :) They have acknowledged the PS problems though.

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/80/80a4b6...e64c54fe80.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illya

Macs have had Bootcamp forever, I don't really know why Squenix bothered with a native Mac client.

I actually wonder how many Mac WoW players use their native Mac client instead of the Windows client.

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Most of them.

Blizzard has developed with Mac in mind since almost the beginning. WoW was developed under openGL before DirectX.

< original beta tester

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WoW is also a 10 year old game with much simpler visuals....Your mac was also crap when it was new.

Side note: It amazes me that people still use macs. You can do practically everything mac does on pc for half the price. It still baffles me, even more so when people try to play games on it knowing full well developers don't really support macs.

---

WoW just rehauled its entire graphics engine with Warlords. The graphics aren't as simple. My old PC no longer met system requirements... Which are higher than HW.

People that think MAC are immune to virus's and hacking are very naive. They can and do get infected and hacked. True, not often as a Windows box, but since Windows has majority of the market share, that is what most attacks occur on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Most of them.

Blizzard has developed with Mac in mind since almost the beginning. WoW was developed under openGL before DirectX.

< original beta tester

---

I remember reading that back when it launched Blizz got about 1 million using the Mac Client. No idea what that number might be these days though given the fluctuations in player base vs the rise in popularity for Macs over recent years. I never had any problems with WoW even as they upped the graphics reqs over successive expansions. I played ESO on my Mac for a good few months as well and that was seamless.

A lack of DirectX complicates things. It takes a lot of time and hard work to convert games to open GL without error and that often takes a toll on performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

A lack of DirectX complicates things. It takes a lot of time and hard work to convert games to open GL without error and that often takes a toll on performance.

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PS4 doesn't use Direct X.

They'd likely have had better luck adapting the PS4 client than slapping an emulation layer on the PC client.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

PS4 doesn't use Direct X.

They'd likely have had better luck adapting the PS4 client than slapping an emulation layer on the PC client.

---

Right, Luminous Tools supports PSGL and GMN/GMNX in addition to whatever Nintendo uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gardes

How well do you expect a GT 650M to perform anyway? I'm on a GTX 850M win8.1 laptop and run at 1920x1080 borderless windowed with dx11 custom settings mostly set to low and most of the dx11 settings off and my laptop runs 30-60 depending on lighting/player swarm (this includes the nthan fate zerg).

---

Just to answer your question, my 650M MacBook pro retina (Late 2013) scored "High" on the DX11 test in the benchmark at 1920x1200 Laptop Standard settings. So given that benchmark and the fact that it runs fine through Boot Camp, I think it's reasonable to expect it to be playable on the native Mac client.

And to the haters that keep suggesting "LOL U USE MAC FOR GAMING HAAHAHAHAHA" did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, we bought a Mac for other purposes and game on the side? I guess none of us have jobs or artistic hobbies that benefit from having a laptop that can do pretty much anything that isn't made of crappy plastics and doesn't have to be replaced every few years. I'm not a PC hater... in fact, windows based PCs dominate my household over Mac 4 to 2. But I bought my Mac so I could take my side work... to my couch... to my mom's house... to a friend's house... to another state... to another country... and I shelled out extra for a dGPU model so I could do the same with FFXIV.

It's not unreasonable for us to own a Mac. The people on this thread aren't idiots and from what I've seen, we're all running dGPU models which perform fine using Boot Camp. We just want the ability to play without switching OS so that we can free up space on our drives, or multi-task with our work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

Your argument holds not water. I've been arguing with ignorant people like yourself all day, but I am always up for another round, because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. My video card is an Nvidia GeForce GTX750M.

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And I'm going to stop you right there. Nvidia didn't MAKE a GTX 750m. GT 750m yes. GTX? Nope. Also, your proof that the so called GTX /airquotes is rated 120 FPS on FFXIV? LOL That I have to see. For one, the GT 750m didn't even EXIST at the 1 year mark ( the date you're stating you have been running this "GTX 750" since) until 2013. So unless you're talking about the ARR 1 year release, this card didn't even exist during the 1.0 1 year. Well, technically, the card you're talking about doesn't exist at all anyway soo ... but yeah. SS or it didn't happen with a GT 750m since the only few games it scores that high on FPS, and I can prove it, is games like Sims 4 on LOW settings. You won't get 120 FPS on the max settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

And I'm going to stop you right there. Nvidia didn't MAKE a GTX 750m. GT 750m yes. GTX? Nope. Also, your proof that the so called GTX /airquotes is rated 120 FPS on FFXIV? LOL That I have to see. For one, the GT 750m didn't even EXIST at the 1 year mark ( the date you're stating you have been running this "GTX 750" since) until 2013. So unless you're talking about the ARR 1 year release, this card didn't even exist during the 1.0 1 year. Well, technically, the card you're talking about doesn't exist at all anyway soo ... but yeah. SS or it didn't happen with a GT 750m since the only few games it scores that high on FPS, and I can prove it, is games like Sims 4 on LOW settings. You won't get 120 FPS on the max settings.

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http://imgur.com/gallery/pCI8cOi/new
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...specifications
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...0m/performance

I meant 780M.

Maybe the mac version got the same treatment as the new batman game. PS4 great PC sucks. because PC version was outsourced.

Mac version was likely outsourced to some 3rd party and will get patched now that it's not running on Mac PROs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

http://imgur.com/gallery/pCI8cOi/new
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...specifications
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...0m/performance

I meant 780M.

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I listen to this while reading your posts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_cQ_IZxDHY

;):D;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmaiHanakaze

And to the haters that keep suggesting "LOL U USE MAC FOR GAMING HAAHAHAHAHA" did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, we bought a Mac for other purposes and game on the side? I guess none of us have jobs or artistic hobbies that benefit from having a laptop that can do pretty much anything that isn't made of crappy plastics and doesn't have to be replaced every few years.

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Actually, I've seen that mentioned throughout this thread. Things said such as, Macs aren't really meant for gaming. Stick to using them for graphic design etc etc etc... so your hate on those of us using a PC is misdirected. Even though you say you're not a PC hater that pretty much states you are.

Those of us who use and build PCs, know the price Apple requests for the exact same if not OLDER GPUs and CPUs, low end RAM etc is ludicrous. Period. End of story. Everything you can do on your Mac, I can do on my PC as far as digital art, movie making, editing, music production etc. The biggest difference in your Mac vs my PC is the OS AND, I don't have some so called "genius" charge me to work on my PC AND I don't have to worry that my PC will be outdated no matter what, in 3 years. Because see, that's the length of warranty that Apple thinks your Hardware is worth. After 3 years LOL you get to buy a new one because Apple won't do anything for you old 3 thousand dollar machine. So ... that's why the OP is being ridiculed. It's not really a Mac vs Windows thing. It's a gamer and someone who thought a 3 year old over priced design tool was going to allow him or her to game. For one, Apple won't even support their machine. What makes you think that buying a game for it was the "smart" choice? You can't blame the developer for your lack of knowledge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

http://imgur.com/gallery/pCI8cOi/new
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...specifications
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/note...0m/performance

I meant 780M.

---

Then you should go back and edit your post. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeonWhitehart

Surely, PC and PS users are your main player bases. But please don't forget that we Mac users were, some of us are, PC or PS players of FFXIV as well. We do deserve the same level of treatment as everyone else regarding to the quality of game and support.
*snip*

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It's not really Squeenix's fault you overpayed for a brand logo instead of getting a sensible piece of widely supported equipment.


/jk

/sorta

/notreally

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quixotica

It's not really Squeenix's fault you overpayed for a brand logo instead of getting a sensible piece of widely supported equipment.


/jk

/sorta

/notreally

---

This is what I don't understand. Lots of you guys seem to forget that SE decided to release a mac client. The only issue to discuss at all is that this official release does not work. Ya, you are poking fun, but lots here honestly believe it's ok to release a product that does not work because "macs are overpriced." If I bought a new mercedes, it sure as hell better run. I really don't care that cheaper cars exist that do run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twivana

http://i.imgur.com/Vvrefmd.jpg

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I take your lol and raise you a

http://i.imgur.com/wscLiCX.png

I want to know why Yoshida put his stamp of approval on this. He had to have seen the same thing we're seeing. There's only an handful of people out there claiming to have "decent experience" on the Mac. I want Square to expend the time and energy on a native client.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raiya

I take your lol and raise you a...

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The Mac isn't a console.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Actually, I've seen that mentioned throughout this thread. Things said such as, Macs aren't really meant for gaming. Stick to using them for graphic design etc etc etc... so your hate on those of us using a PC is misdirected. Even though you say you're not a PC hater that pretty much states you are.

---

Not sure how I can be a PC hater with a decent overclocked i5 rig hooked up to my TV. I only stated the truth; every non-Mac laptop I've owned has fallen apart or been unreliable on me after a few years. When it comes to desktops, I wouldn't do anything but a PC because most of the time you can build a PC for a single purpose and thus specialize the design to fit the task. I have a dedicated media PC, a dedicated gaming PC, and I run a Windows file server at my place.

When I want to specialize my hardware for a specific purpose, PCs are great.

When I want a reliable laptop with a standard build and no guesses on what's inside of it, I'll buy a Mac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

I want Square to expend the time and energy on a native client.

---

That's like complaining to Sony that they need to make a console version of a game for an XBONE or 360 or PC that works just as well on the PS.

It's created by a third party as was mentioned previously in another post. If it worked on what they used to test the game on at SE HQ then, it works for them it should work for others. However, just like some Windows owners have issues while the majority of the PC players are windows players, there are still problems. You don't see those people on the forums complaining. They, may complain but they aren't blaming SE. They have machine issues or network issue or outdated machines *cough cough* like the OP.

Point is, the OP's machine has outdated hardware. He's using an Intel GPU (THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE) and is upset the game runs like crap. Well, upgrade. If it was a PC, most of us probably would have asked for more details and given him or her a reasonably priced GPU they could swap out and use to play the game well until they could afford a better Windows machine but, being the GPU is part of the MOBO and the CPU itself, they're S.O.L. And this is another reason why, Laptops, Mac or PC suck for gaming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmaiHanakaze

I only stated the truth; every non-Mac laptop I've owned has fallen apart or been unreliable on me after a few years.
When I want a reliable laptop with a standard build and no guesses on what's inside of it, I'll buy a Mac.

---

Okay fair enough. However, I don't know what laptops you're buying where they fall apart on you every few years. I have owned the same Asus G60Vx laptop since 2009 and it's had no issues. Then again, I take care of my stuff. Not saying you don't but, saying every Windows based LT is a POS basically is a very general and untrue statement.

As far as knowing what's in your Mac ... it's the same hardware. Plain and simple. The ONLY difference with a Mac and a windows based PC or LT is the OS. That's it. Oh. And the ridiculous price Apple asks for because they use X material as their case body. Otherwise, Intel CPUs, Samsung (lol at the irony) RAM 90% of the time and a brand of SSD if you go that route. The parts are the same. They do use proprietary other connections which 90% of the time bomb because they're a PITA for users to have to shop for when they already had the LAST model "new thing" from Apple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Point is, the OP's machine has outdated hardware. He's using an Intel GPU (THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE) and is upset the game runs like crap. Well, upgrade. If it was a PC, most of us probably would have asked for more details and given him or her a reasonably priced GPU they could swap out and use to play the game well until they could afford a better Windows machine but, being the GPU is part of the MOBO and the CPU itself, they're S.O.L. And this is another reason why, Laptops, Mac or PC suck for gaming.

---

The OP stated in a later reply that he's using the dGPU GeForce 650M model, which is the same GPU my MBP has. Thus my response earlier that a majority of us Mac users in this thread are not idiots and have posted specs using a dGPU model. I'd be as quick to laugh off an Intel iGPU user as anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

And this is another reason why, Laptops, Mac or PC suck for gaming.

---

That's only if you're the kind of person who just buys whatever's on the store shelf and that's it. Store bought, or any cheaply made computers in general, make it difficult or outright impossible to upgrade. Someone who wants to seriously game on a PC would do some research beforehand. I built my PC recently and it made playing this game so much sweeter compared to the old 2011 dinosaur PC I was using that was pre built. PC for games can be fantastic, but you have to put in a bit of effort to get the results you want from your games. Laptops are a whole other story I won't get into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geesus

They do use proprietary other connections which 90% of the time bomb because they're a PITA for users to have to shop for when they already had the LAST model "new thing" from Apple.

---

I'll totally give you that, buying thunderbolt stuff was a PITA and expensive xD

Regarding my PC laptop buying, most of my experience has been with HP / Dell (through my day job). The Dells have been better in general... the one they have me with now is pretty solid and nice honestly. My first HP had an issue where the soldering of the power jack broke... so it literally got the point where it had to be plugged in a certain way or it would shut off... eew.

My second HP just eventually went crazy and the HDMI port stopped working, and random bluescreens. It also overheated and throttled all the time... a cooling pad helped but wasn't enough. I eventually found out how to undervolt the CPU and that seemed to help, but I feel I shouldn't have had to go that far to solve it to begin with.

So I tried a MacBook Air after the second HP. It was super tiny and portable and I never had any trouble with it. I pretty much gave it to my girlfriend once I bought the pro. Still works just fine, and she's a lot less careful with hardware than I am heh ><

Regardless of one's hardware I think it's just important to know the limitations on it. If I read a post here with a Air user complaining about not being able to game on their Mac, then it would be "well, you're using Intel 5000 graphics, you're not going to be able to play no matter what you do with that." But most of what I'm reading is Mac users with machines that have a GeForce 650M or higher spec card and they're still having issues. So in that case, it's more like "well, this wrapper is a piece of Opo-Opo poo and yeah, your machine could Boot Camp FFXIV just fine so the actual software offering shouldn't suck this bad."

And the reason I spoke out about the haters is because we actually have machines that CAN play games. No, we're not going to max FPS on high settings but the hardware exceeds the minimum requirements.

( And admittedly, the comment about PC laptops falling apart was off and said because of frustration ^^; )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

snip

---

The problem is that mac users paid the EXACT same amount of money as PC/ PS4 users for a crap product. If SE had given away mac clients for free, then they wouldn't be upset right now. Is it in, any way, shape or form, acceptable that they should be asked to pay TWICE just to get a product that functions at a reasonable standard? SE should issue all mac users an apology and a refund immediately because the client is almost unplayable as it is right now. They paid $60 for the same bundle that pc and ps4 users did, why should their money not take them as far as platforms?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geesus

That's likecomplaining to Sony that they need to make a console version of a game for an XBONE or 360 or PC that works just as well on the PS.

It's created by a third party as was mentioned previously in another post. If it worked on what they used to test the game on at SE HQ then, it works for them it should work for others. However, just like some Windows owners have issues while the majority of the PC players are windows players, there are still problems. You don't see those people on the forums complaining. They, may complain but they aren't blaming SE. They have machine issues or network issue or outdated machines *cough cough* like the OP.

Point is, the OP's machine has outdated hardware. He's using an Intel GPU (THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE) and is upset the game runs like crap. Well, upgrade. If it was a PC, most of us probably would have asked for more details and given him or her a reasonably priced GPU they could swap out and use to play the game well until they could afford a better Windows machine but, being the GPU is part of the MOBO and the CPU itself, they're S.O.L. And this is another reason why, Laptops, Mac or PC suck for gaming.

---

It's more widespread then the OP.
According to this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rs#post3062162,
someone ran the client on the this: http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...A&step=config# with the highest GPU available.
And got similar performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

The problem is that mac users paid the EXACT same amount of money as PC/ PS4 users for a crap product. If SE had given away mac clients for free, then they wouldn't be upset right now. Is it in, any way, shape or form, acceptable that they should be asked to pay TWICE just to get a product that functions at a reasonable standard? SE should issue all mac users an apology and a refund immediately because the client is almost unplayable as it is right now. They paid $60 for the same bundle that pc and ps4 users did, why should their money not take them as far as platforms?

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Honestly, I don't want a refund. I want them to acknowledge the issue to start with.

Just stopping in here to show my support for the poor mac users out there. As someone who plays a lot of MMOs and has played on gaming pcs and MacBook pros, a native client makes a world of difference (example: WoW Mac Client) and FFXIV players deserve the kind of experience a native client provides. Good luck to all the Mac players out there, I hope SE optimizes the wrapper client or provides you with a native one!

Is square-enix developing this client? Maybe it is developed by an outside programmer and that is why it is taking them so long to respond?

Transgaming, which just got bought by nVidia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strifex

Just stopping in here to show my support for the poor mac users out there. As someone who plays a lot of MMOs and has played on gaming pcs and MacBook pros, a native client makes a world of difference (example: WoW Mac Client) and FFXIV players deserve the kind of experience a native client provides. Good luck to all the Mac players out there, I hope SE optimizes the wrapper client or provides you with a native one!

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Really appreciate your support. But so far we have heard nothing from anyone from SE. And the good thing is I am getting used to the slide-show gameplay on Mac client. hehe:)