Warrior pretty much the Go-To tank for now.

Why? Why would they scale better than Warriors in comparison to the upgrades in gear warrior gets?

It fascinated me in a WoD run on Tuesday after the weekly reset, that a level 50 WARR with just the conqueror and an assortment of 110 and 120 gear was voted to be the MT for the entire raid. She hadn't even been to Ishgard yet while the other two [a level 53 DRK and a level 52 PLD] just took OT. Even the WARR was shocked lol. And she did a GREAT job!

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Why? Why would they scale better than Warriors in comparison to the upgrades in gear warrior gets?

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The ratio will be the same, but the difference will be higher.
If a DPS does 50% more than a tank, it's lower from 300 to 450 than 400 to 600 (Actual numbers notwhistanding)

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

It fascinated me in a WoD run on Tuesday after the weekly reset, that a level 50 WARR with just the conqueror and an assortment of 110 and 120 gear was voted to be the MT for the entire raid. She hadn't even been to Ishgard yet while the other two [a level 53 DRK and a level 52 PLD] just took OT. Even the WARR was shocked lol. And she did a GREAT job!

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It's not like level 50s weren't MTing WoD before HW came out, right?

I think WoD will still cap them at level 50, and the gear found in the early stages of HW are actually more around the iLevel 115-120 range -- Comparable to what the WAR had.

Still, it does seem strange that the PLD didn't step up, at least.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Why? Why would they scale better than Warriors in comparison to the upgrades in gear warrior gets?

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Well, a lot of the warrior gear has parry on it, a strictly defensive stat. While DPS will be getting critical strike. The rings, necklaces, wrists, and ears. Those are strictly split down dps/tank lines, so either the warrior gets the dps gear, sacrificing their tankiness for damage and potentially taking it from a DPS, or they get the tanking gear which has no str and is based on defense. The DPS accuracy cap is also higher if the tank wants to focus on damage, and they'd typically will aim for defensive materia over offense based.

This thread is getting trolled soooooo hard.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

This thread is getting trolled soooooo hard.

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SHHHHHHHH, I just got the popcorn ready

All tanks share gear, this is a comparison of tanks. Warriors will have very good dps numbers on OT, but the poster is ignoring changes to other tanks and is cherry picking his arguments. Can a warrior do a 3 fell combo in berserk which is INSANE --yes--its gonna be the BEST burst damage of the tanks, but its overall damage being far and away better than others remains to be seen (I mean--it *will* be better, just looking at it). Goring Blade is 540 potency attack every 24 seconds, royal authority is 340 spammable attack and sword oath remains as great as ever. In 2.0 paladin ot had a great passive but terrible active damage options (where warriors were the opposite). Warriors now have a fantastic deliverance stance and fell cleave has 100 more potency than IB, but the warrior is less a story of fell cleave and much more a story of deliverance to be blunt.

Fell cleave has 200 more potency than IB.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

This thread is getting trolled soooooo hard.

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We know dude, sometimes it's fun to take the bait.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

We know dude, sometimes it's fun to take the bait.

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Nothing wrong with trying to get an actual discussion going.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

Nothing wrong with trying to get an actual discussion going.

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Shame the professional troll spotters, focused as they are on naught else but pointing out trolls and preparing popcorn, will miss this post :(.

Warrior has been the go to tank :) Equilibrium so sexy when it crits for damn near 6k

WARs still take a lot more damage than PLDs
ill never main tank as WAR when there is a PLD in the party

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Originally Posted by YISUG

WARs still take a lot more damage than PLDs
ill never main tank as WAR when there is a PLD in the party

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You have no idea what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

As far as warrior goes, I'm expecting to see Raw Intuition's auto crit heals get fixed and Fell Cleave to get beat with the nerf stick. A warrior on my server supposedly routinely hits for 11k+ with it, which just seems ridiculous. >.>

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Warriors are only Fell Cleaving for that much on Ravana. Ravana has +50% damage taken during his channeled attacks. A fully buffed, fully geared strength warrior right now will crit for ~7500 in raid settings (STR pot + Berserk + Trick Attack + Hypercharge).

Wars take more damage but not alot more. Lack of shield and worse cds but they can ib every buster with some skill.


Paladin Mt and war it is still the preference

On the warrior side, we get a new raid utility which is raw intuition.

MT PoV, assuming i'm getting hit by physical dmg i'm gonna have a 20s 20% dmg reduction, this is the basic point when we gonna use the skill as a cd, also it works with awareness.

OT PoV, sch gets behind me, lands crit adlo on me, spread it on team before the big raid wide aoes.

I got no idea if the second plan is doable or not, but i can imagine it can be a large dmg reduction on the whole team at critical points, like pld clemency will be.

Instead of debating whatever of the 3 tanks will be the greatest, we should start think about how we gonna pair our skills for the team benefit, there will never be a better tank than an other. I got a large respect to my co-pld buddy, i'd never neglict his skills or think my tank is better than his one. Saying war, dk, pld is the go-to tank is just nonsense imo.

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Originally Posted by LuceliaUltima

OT PoV, sch gets behind me, lands crit adlo on me, spread it on team before the big raid wide aoes.

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Which we're all pretty sure is a bug, exactly like when Awareness negated the chance of critical heals.

If it's not, that's one hell of a cooldown.

DRK all the way,embrace darkness

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Originally Posted by Perzeval

Fell cleave has 200 more potency than IB.

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The ability to ignore Defiance's Damage penalty makes it an effective 400 potency attack.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The ability to ignore Defiance's Damage penalty makes it an effective 400 potency attack.

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Isn't it the opposite.

Instead of being 240 potency attack due to defiance it is a true 300 pot attack.

If there was no defiance penalty it would be 300pot vs 500pot.

as a pld, id say we both have our respective places in raids: us plds can provide defensive/healing support where needed and y'all WARs can provide extra beat-down sauce for dps checks. parties with either 2 pld or 2 war dont seem to be as efficient for progression as when Axe and sword combine their might.

^
That's how I see it as well.

Both PLD and WAR bring strong benefits as either OT or MT, its just one is more heal/defensive support oriented and one is more extra beatdown oriented. In the end though they both kind of result in the same thing, an easier time and more dps with the WAR providing the dps boost themselves and PLD lightening the load on the healers so that they can assist in dps'ing as well.

Although I think there may have been a few oversights that led to WAR dps being a little overtuned, but I'm sure it as well as other things will get tweaked and smoothed out more.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

More generally about DRKs:
At level 60 in ilvl gear, it seems there are a select few that can really output a chunk of DPS. I would expect them to outdo the average duty finder DPSer, but these are not average tank players it's coming from.

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Yeah I off-tanked a Ramuh HM for my trial roulette yesterday and out-DPS every single DPS in there. Like you said, none of them were even above average players, but DRK can definitely put out some respectable DPS however it comes at a cost. Extremely high TP usage. Blood Weapon increases our attack speed by 15% and lets us generate MP with every physical attack. It lasts for 20sec, and has a cooldown of 45sec so you can use it quite often (and should for higher DPS). This literally allows you to spam Dark Arts for every Souleater (and weave a Carve and Spit/Dark Messenger) for the entirety that it's up.

But (using the same instance), Ramuh HM has almost no down-time if you never get targeted by anything (Chaotic/Rolling). I got targeted for Rolling once in the later part of the fight, and I even helped clean up some orbs in the first phase because ranged weren't doing it and by the time the adds spawned I was TP starved. The only way I have found to regen the TP is by switching to MP usage moves, but that is a huge loss in DPS. It's better than standing there doing nothing, but not much...

I love watching the GCD go as fast as a monk in GL3 while I'm off-tanking, I just don't love it 4min later when I look at my TP and realize that I switched from playing the worst TP job for all of 2.0 (BRD) to the new 3.0 worst TP job (off-tank DRK) lol.

I absolutely love DRK though, but Blood Weapon kills our longevity. Unless people think it's viable to stand there and spam an enmity generating move out of tank stance that uses MP for long enough for our TP to gain back organically through ticks....

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Isn't it the opposite.

Instead of being 240 potency attack due to defiance it is a true 300 pot attack.

If there was no defiance penalty it would be 300pot vs 500pot.

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6 of one thing half a dozen of another. The effect in all use circumstances, outside of during Unchained, is of having used a 400 potency attack. Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast are 200/300 ignore 25% penalty instead of 265/400 in order to prevent them from being incredibly overpowered during Unchained.

I'm so confused. IB is 300 potency. It doesn't change if you use Unchained because it already ignores Defiance's damage reduction. Where is this extra 100 potency coming from...?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'm so confused. IB is 300 potency. It doesn't change if you use Unchained because it already ignores Defiance's damage reduction. Where is this extra 100 potency coming from...?

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Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone are unaffected by the Defiance Damage Penalty and are unaffected by Unchained. Also, Fell Cleave and Decimate are unaffected by the Defiance Damage Penalty because they can't be used in Defiance. The extra 100 potency is coming from misinformation.

The effective extra 100 potency is not misinformation, but relative effect.

If you are using Inner Beast while Unchained is not up during Defiance it would deal the same damage as a theoretical 400 potency attack that was effected by Defiance's -25% damage penalty.

Unchained's actual effect is to negate the -25% damage penalty of Defiance for 20s while its relative effect is to increase the damage of all warrior attacks save Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Fellcleave and Decimate by +33% while in Defiance.

Inner Beast's actual effect is a 300 potency attack that ignores the Defiance penalty and its relative effect is that of a theoretical 400 potency attack that would be effected by the Defiance damage penalty. The math comes down to 300 * 100%/75% = 400.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Isn't it the opposite.

Instead of being 240 potency attack due to defiance it is a true 300 pot attack.

If there was no defiance penalty it would be 300pot vs 500pot.

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Don't forget Maim. Inner Beast is 360 potency versus Fell Cleave's 600 potency. FC is a full 240 above IB. But yes, it's a 300 pot attack instead of 225 (Remember, 25% penalty). It's very important to factor in all buffs and debuffs when comparing potency. For instance, let's look at the healing efficiency of IB.

IB is a 360 potency attack, but it heals at a 100/125 penalty because it does not gain bonus healing from potency, so the healing's impact from a tank perspective is reduced from 360 to 288. Souleater, by comparison, is 400 potency, reduced to 320 but then boosted back up to 400 because you reduce impacted damage, increasing the effective health returned by the same cut off. This is then boosted above 400 by Darkside to 460 effective healing potency despite its raw damage being at 368 potency, effectively making it vastly superior to Inner Beast as a self-healing ability while being more or less identical in raw damage.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

^
That's how I see it as well.

Both PLD and WAR bring strong benefits as either OT or MT, its just one is more heal/defensive support oriented and one is more extra beatdown oriented. In the end though they both kind of result in the same thing, an easier time and more dps with the WAR providing the dps boost themselves and PLD lightening the load on the healers so that they can assist in dps'ing as well.

Although I think there may have been a few oversights that led to WAR dps being a little overtuned, but I'm sure it as well as other things will get tweaked and smoothed out more.

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Pretty much, yeah. I am struggling to see a purpose for the DRK in a raid setting. Int reduction on the boss only works on magic damage, while Storm's Path works for all damage, though it can't be maintained without a noteworthy DPS loss compared to the DRK which can maintain it without incurring a meaningful loss.

By the way, I'd heavily look at the potency of every other class before saying the WAR's potency is really high right now. For a given span of time, at first glance it seems the WAR and DRK's potency is looking very similar. Even when factoring in things like multiple Fell Cleaves and the like, a standard damage rotation including a boosted souleater is barely 10 potency behind a standard rotation for a WAR. This is exclusively when using GCD abilities and firing off Fell Cleave/Souleater as necessary, while also factoring in Maim/Darkside (but not 5-15% crit).

Once you start throwing in Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Scourge, and Salted Earth, the DRK's overall potency over time starts to look quite comparable, if not favorable to, the Warrior as a whole. As an example, let's take a best-case scenario for a Warrior's potency, starting at Butcher's Block, with Maim already applied.

That's (280+150+190+270+150+200+280+500)*1.2 / 8 or 303 potency. Giving the DRK the same advantage (8 GCDs), we get (250+280+150+250+280+150+250+400) * 1.15 / 8 or ~289 potency over those 8 GCDs. The gap is a bit closer if you start from a point not halfway through a combo. The crit will start to work into the War's favor a bit more, but Scourge blows Fracture out of the water, and Salted Earth and Carve and Spit are both vastly superior to anything WAR has access to simply because they're oGCD and hit like a truck when going for DPS. Considering that chaining for Souleater isn't that far behind WAR chaining for Fell Cleave, and that Blood Weapon not only increases attack speed, but vastly increases the amount of times you can cast Souleater within a given time span, I'd be willing to bet that the Warrior isn't half as "overpowered" as people actually think it is. In fact, I'd be more likely to wager that the DRK is pretty comparable to the warrior.

The big thing that I'm not going to factor in (too lazy) is Berserk, which will overcome a few of the advantages that DRK would have and probably lets it break even with DRK when it's all said and done, especially if pacification is removed. So, while I cannot guarantee that the DRK does equivalent or superior damage to a Warrior when going for raw DPS, I'd be highly surprised if the WAR was vastly superior to both tanks.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Pretty much, yeah. I am struggling to see a purpose for the DRK in a raid setting. Int reduction on the boss only works on magic damage, while Storm's Path works for all damage, though it can't be maintained without a noteworthy DPS loss compared to the DRK which can maintain it without incurring a meaningful loss.

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There's no meaningful loss for WAR to keep up Path instead of BBing. SP combo = 590, BB combo = 630. It's 40 potency before buffs/SE every roughly 7 GCDs (accounting for 2 combos + occasional Fracture/IB/SC/Fell), or more accurately, roughly 3 potency per second lost ... if you calculate whatever 1 potency is for your stats, multiply it by 3 and that's about how much you'll lose doing SP over BB.

In the grand scheme of things that 3 potency per second is extreme chump change compared to raid DPS. Keeping people alive however, and allowing for easier healer DPS, that's significant.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

snip

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WAR can more easily stack DPS cooldown and plan for a burst window, and stacking amplifies the effect. Not to mention take another damage cooldown via cross class. WAR decimates DRK dps, simple as that. The difference isnt big when MTing, but when OTing its a notable gap. Not to mention they can much more easily switch between tanking and offtanking due to how their stance mechanic works. DRK dps also largely requires the DRK to be able to stay on whats being fought: more so than warrior, due to the insane importance of blood weapon. Lose a few seconds of blood weapon and the DRK dps drops.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Blood Weapon increases our attack speed by 15% and lets us generate MP with every physical attack. It lasts for 20sec, and has a cooldown of 45sec so you can use it quite often (and should for higher DPS).

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No offense, but please check your numbers.
Blood weapon increase attack speed by 10%, for 15s and is up every 40s.

Still a great CD though ;)

Vs war with maim (20%) and deliverance (5% and 0% to 10% critical chance) and cds like inner release plus berserk..... Warriors dps is just smarter and better as an ot.

what I've noticed since launch as a WHM

PLD is still by far still the easiest to heal
WARs don't use any cooldowns. Instead relying on their huge health pool and dps to get them through. To the point where I almost want to drop party as soon as I see I have a one in dgn.
DRK is somewhere in the middle. Very pretty abilities. The Aura outside of a dgn (just standing around in town) is obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No offense, but please check your numbers.
Blood weapon increase attack speed by 10%, for 15s and is up every 40s.

Still a great CD though ;)

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Good call, typing out specifics from memory obviously wasn't the best idea :D

There is now a plethora of youtube and twitch streams with videos of Ravana Ex clears showing that all the tanks are doing roughly the same DPS, so WAR doesn't "decimate" anyone in any department. I'm really enjoying DRK at endgame, I'm not squishy at all, and the threat is phenomenal, I absolutely love only having to use Power Slash once a fight. And the burst that is Hard Slash -> Dark Arts -> Syphon Strike -> Carve and Spit -> Delirium Blade -> Plunge, 930 Potency in 1 GCD LOVE IT!

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

There's no way DRK with Grit active has enough mana to dark arts every single soul eater unless we're talking AoE tanking with blood price active. In which case you should probably not be doing soul eater at all.

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Tanking only instances at 60 so far, but yeah, its doable.. Just have to use your mana regenerating skills like sole survivor on an add, or carve'n'spit without dark arts. Heck I mostly don't even do the aggro combo and am fine with aggro from grit and Dark Arts Damage Combo alone.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

There is now a plethora of youtube and twitch streams with videos of Ravana Ex clears showing that all the tanks are doing roughly the same DPS, so WAR doesn't "decimate" anyone in any department. I'm really enjoying DRK at endgame, I'm not squishy at all, and the threat is phenomenal, I absolutely love only having to use Power Slash once a fight. And the burst that is Hard Slash -> Dark Arts -> Syphon Strike -> Carve and Spit -> Delirium Blade -> Plunge, 930 Potency in 1 GCD LOVE IT!

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Yep, awesome to do that indeed. ^^

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

There is now a plethora of youtube and twitch streams with videos of Ravana Ex clears showing that all the tanks are doing roughly the same DPS, so WAR doesn't "decimate" anyone in any department. I'm really enjoying DRK at endgame, I'm not squishy at all, and the threat is phenomenal, I absolutely love only having to use Power Slash once a fight. And the burst that is Hard Slash -> Dark Arts -> Syphon Strike -> Carve and Spit -> Delirium Blade -> Plunge, 930 Potency in 1 GCD LOVE IT!

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Well if thats true, if tank DPS is all about the same, then that would be a different problem entirely. Just means PLD is better and should always be taken over both DRK and WAR since that was just about the only thing they had over PLD.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The effective extra 100 potency is not misinformation, but relative effect.

...

Inner Beast's actual effect is a 300 potency attack that ignores the Defiance penalty and its relative effect is that of a theoretical 400 potency attack that would be effected by the Defiance damage penalty. The math comes down to 300 * 100%/75% = 400.

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This is not how any of this works. Relative effects are meaningless if you can only use one skill with 1 stance and the other skill with the other stance. If you COULD use fell cleave with defiance up, you're right about it. But we are talking about two different situations and thus, we are looking at the absolute numbers. If the IB does 2k dmg and the FC does 3.5k, we are not just looking at an increase of 25% dmg of 400 vs 500 potency. The only thing that counts towards your "relative effect" is the aggro generated, but that's not the point of those skills.

OT DPS is probably really the same in the endgame, but an OT's job is not just generating pretty numbers, utility is just as important. A DK is missing out a lot of raid utility because his damage reduction skill is based upon parry procs, which means he cannot use it at all when being the OT. The int reduction is okish, but can be replaced by a dragonkick anyday, anytime. A warrior can always apply his debuff whenever he wants and there is currently no skill that can possibly replace SP.