Bard is utterly destroyed

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Originally Posted by JovianTheCool

Thanks Rui, I don't have a 60 BRD yet, so I can't judge. I'm pretty sad by MCH's numbers at this point though.

780-800 for 3 mins without Minuet? Yea, let me get some practice in and test. From my initial testing last night, i'm about 60-80 dps lower than the numbers with GB.

For MCH, if you're not in GB, you'll be losing 200 potency every 20 seconds and 400 potency every min which adds up to 1000 potency every minute and they're off-GCD. Need to do more testing to see if Auto-attacks can make up for that. Furthermore unlike BRD, MCH can actually move if there are procs in GB just like BLM.

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What numbers does MCH pulls without party/food/buffs etc?

I'm contemplating on leveling MCH but IDK, I have been reading that MCH is a worse shithole than BRD now lol.

Pretty much rigged with bugs and shitty potencies right now.

I did around 700-720 with some screw ups without party/food/buffs. I'll try again tonight when I get back. Opener wise, I based it off level 50 bard style, so the cooldowns line up perfectly. There's a point 180 seconds in where Hawk Eye+B4B+Wildfire+Rapid fire are available at the same time, but reload is about 10 seconds off. Need to tweak this to see how it goes.

Unlike BRD, if i decide to take off GB stance, MCH do not have many reliable damage dealing off-GCD skills except Blank and Silence/Stun. I'm basically just 123, wait for blank, silence/stun, reload/quick reload and my cooldowns. Normal stance BRD vs MCH, BRD wins hands down. IMO, BRD can play like level 50 and be really efficient, MCH only shines at level 60 with GB (2 powerful off-GCDs added to arsenal but gated behind this stance). In return, MCH gets to move in GB depending on procs, but BRD can't. I guess that's how they decided to "balance" it out.

Edit: 810-820 dps with no party buffs/food

Sort of getting nervous to see how se might "fix" any of this.

Empyreal arrow not connected to wm would be a fine start....maybe IJ too.

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Originally Posted by JovianTheCool

Pretty much rigged with bugs and shitty potencies right now.

I did around 700-720 with some screw ups without party/food/buffs. I'll try again tonight when I get back. Opener wise, I based it off level 50 bard style, so the cooldowns line up perfectly. There's a point 180 seconds in where Hawk Eye+B4B+Wildfire+Rapid fire are available at the same time, but reload is about 10 seconds off. Need to tweak this to see how it goes.

Unlike BRD, if i decide to take off GB stance, MCH do not have many reliable damage dealing off-GCD skills except Blank and Silence/Stun. I'm basically just 123, wait for blank, silence/stun, reload/quick reload and my cooldowns. Normal stance BRD vs MCH, BRD wins hands down. IMO, BRD can play like level 50 and be really efficient, MCH only shines at level 60 with GB (2 powerful off-GCDs added to arsenal but gated behind this stance). In return, MCH gets to move in GB depending on procs, but BRD can't. I guess that's how they decided to "balance" it out.

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Yes. BRD have more OGCDs to play with (technically only repelling/blunt/BL but BL procs lots) and they are very efficient in weaving that (you can do 2 OGCD per GCD cycle). That is why it comes annoying, and ultimately a source of DPS loss over time when in extended WM mode. On dummy parse I find a lot of time my OGCDs are up and wasted time not firing them off quickly because I can only afford to use one OGCD per cycle, just like casters.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

What numbers does MCH pulls without party/food/buffs etc?

I'm contemplating on leveling MCH but IDK, I have been reading that MCH is a worse shithole than BRD now lol.

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Seems to be sitting around the same dps as bard. Seen them be able to pull 800+

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Seems to be sitting around the same dps as bard. Seen them be able to pull 800+

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So we are now what 400 DPS behind melee?

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Originally Posted by Crazypluto

So we are now what 400 DPS behind melee?

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well, i've seen posts of dragoons pulling 1200 now...so yes. we would be doing 2/3 to 3/4 damage of dragoons.

The real test comes 1 month later - Alex Savage. Where everything puts into the stress test, we will see if BRD is still worthy.

Yea, nothing matters now till Savage opens. Teams will then flock to the better support class in terms of DPS to push content.

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Originally Posted by awesomeuno

well, i've seen posts of dragoons pulling 1200 now...so yes. we would be doing 2/3 to 3/4 damage of dragoons.

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Those are dummy parses though. Realistically melees are going to parse lower on any actual fight compared to dummies. Bard dps however is not affected by like 90% of mechanics... I havn't seen any real issues regarding bard dps in any of the primal fights so far.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I thought wanderer's was something you would put up just long enough to hit Iron Jaws/Sidewinder/Empyreal before dropping it, maybe holding longer if you have buffs up.

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This would work if WM were instant instead of having a 3-second cast time.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I thought wanderer's was something you would put up just long enough to hit Iron Jaws/Sidewinder/Empyreal before dropping it, maybe holding longer if you have buffs up.

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Ive done some dummy testing and this^ is the worse way to play bard. from what I've found is that playing bard with 2.X in mind is the most effective way to play still. WM is awesome in short burst fights or opening of fights. when doing boss fight i will start in WM and pop all my CD's and then shut it off. only time I will turn it back on is if there is a pause in the fight or if barrage, E. Arrow and sidewinder are all of CD. seems that i sit at a steady 700-750 that way.

Also for groups of 2-4 I will full time WM and just cycle my dots on everything, RoD when off CD and keep everything's dots on with iron jaw. this allows me with 4 people to do one more GCD and OGCD before having to reapply iron on one mob.

Just make EA and IJ not require WM. Would just love bard after that.

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Those are dummy parses though. Realistically melees are going to parse lower on any actual fight compared to dummies. Bard dps however is not affected by like 90% of mechanics... I havn't seen any real issues regarding bard dps in any of the primal fights so far.

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Not affected? Bard gets to sit in a single spot the entire set of fights?

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Not affected? Bard gets to sit in a single spot the entire set of fights?

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Pretty sure she meant if you were playing 2.x style bard in those fights (which you kinda have to do)

I knew this would come up as soon as they announced cast times. Level black mage and it will only make you a better Bard.
Disagree fine but i have played all dps classes and it is only of my opinion.
Bard was my main and still play it but switched to blm when started to raid and such and FC had plenty of Bards :)
The class is not destroyed because less mobility...
I agree Bard was about mobility but they changed it, so learn the class to its max and move on

I noticed that they do lame damage everytime I have a bard in party.

Dmg buff ASAP.

it's utter garbage to be around tank levels of dps -.-

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Originally Posted by awesomeuno

Pretty sure she meant if you were playing 2.x style bard in those fights (which you kinda have to do)

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Even so the fact we can't sit in a DPS stance affects DPS, exactly like a DPS not being able to sit next to the boss without moving affects it. Just because we're technically still able to hit the boss, our numbers are significantly lower resulting in still lower DPS. If anything it's more of a condemnation. Even with melee DPS moving wildly we probably still lose the parse.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I knew this would come up as soon as they announced cast times. Level black mage and it will only make you a better Bard.
Disagree fine but i have played all dps classes and it is only of my opinion.

The class is not destroyed because less mobility...
I agree Bard was about mobility but they changed it, so learn the class to its max and move on

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1.) If we wanted to play BLM so we can play BRD, why not just play BLM? I don't want to play a BLM with a bow skin instead of a staff.
2.) Bard as we know it dies @level 52. It is not the class it was designed to be from 2.0-3.0, and what it fundamentally was designed as.
3.) Sorry I honestly doubt if they turned BLM into a melee DPS that used fire and ice punches people would ok with, "learn it or move on". It's bad for the game, for the players, and it's just an odd dismissive attitude that quite frankly has no place in most if not all discussions. It's not how problems are solved and fixed.

I love the changes

Bard is dead.

Just raise the bow wpn dmg. TY.

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Originally Posted by Darkthrone

Just raise the bow wpn dmg. TY.

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What about no?

Bow dmg is not the issue, new skills that don't work with the kit are.
Having high damage but horrible gameplay doesn't fix things. It just masks the problem.

god the amount of people Q.Qing cause the new changes to bard.. bet half of them havent even used wanderers minuet more then once lol

i love the new skills n playstyle :3

off topic tho but is sidewinder bugged?? skill description says can only be used under the effect of wanderer's minuet but i can use it without it o.O

Thanks SE for ruining bard. I can't even play machinist, either, they're virtual clones - and this coming from a bard main since launch.
It's a giant F U, nothing less. Yoshi-P, you should be ashamed.

well tha one i will push as well cause why not 2 bard is ruined topics with 20+ pages this is seems to be more flame heavy so yeah lets do it: BARDS SUCKS NOW THX SE!!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with the title of this thread.
... and with the title of the other thread also.

Quite a few changes should be made to bring bard closer to on par with other dps. Barrage should have 2 stance options: Act like it did previously when not in WM, 3x WS when in WM. Weapon damage needs to be increased. WM needs to be an instant effect and have a much more noticeable buff increase to be worth sacrificing Auto attack/mobility/OGCD ability spams. Having 50% reset proc rate isn't as useful if you can't really keep using it every time it is up in WM.

I don't dislike the way they changed brd, but they didn't make it worth using quite as much as they should have. The DoT changes aren't really making up for the loss of Auto attacks in the stance.

Bard's DPS ceiling is just so low compared to other classes in 3.0 who can achieve 1,000+ with relative ease. We have to depend on dragoons to maximize our damage; without dragoons, we have such a low cap at end-game right now that it makes making the Bismarck EX even a challenge for many parties. As a result, there's a reluctance to take more than a BRD and/or MCH, which makes the class very difficult to play when parties hesitate to invite you knowing you're the weakest DPS. Why invite a BRD when you can get 400 more DPS from a SMN or DRG?

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Let\\\\\\'s not forget that Barrage is gone completely destroying the dps burst the class had, I mean you can\\\\\\'t even auto attack with Wanderer\\\\\\'s active so I don\\\\\\'t even see why this was left in the skill tree. Bloodletter is shared with Rain of a Death for whatever reason I can\\\\\\'t even think of highly hurting the aoe of the class, no longer can we have the option to use Wide Volley in order to make Rain of Death free which also could have made Quick Nock free. Honestly they might as well taken out Wide Volley since it cost more then Quick Nock that there is no reason to use it anymore. The only good things I\\\\\\'ve acquired so far is Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow, Warden\\\\\\'s Paeon is pointless when Healers already have the option to remove status effects.

What was the point of hurting this class so bad? If it\\\\\\'s not fixed then no one will play it and this class will be dead before the next expansion.

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Uhm... I differ in many things here... I don't know if you checked in your bard, but. Barrage is no longer a triple-auto attack skill, but rather a triple-weaponskill one. If you do for example a straight shot dduring barrage it will make 3 straight shots... Actually it fits awesome with Minuet. Iron Jaws and Empyreal arrow are awesome... And Warden paeon is very very important and strategic. Think about it, what if in a certain boss all party will get slept or paralisis? You can cast this in the healer, so the healer will be able to freely esuna the rest.

Example: Rank A Kurrea, some of the people hitting it are nubz and don't know they have to silence, you casted warden's paeon in your healer, everyone gets sleep except healer who now can esuna all the party, congratulations, you're now the unique party hitting the A rank.

Iron jaws basically reset your poisons, so, instead of needing to use two skills for poisons, you just use one well timed and notice the miracles. Of course bad bards will perhaps miss the timings and fail to reset poisons with this...

Bard also got a new AoE buff, when other classes lost their AoE buffs such as a BLM and WHM using holy-flare, Bard can now freely execute rain of death, and not only that! If you place poisons with internal release and straight shot in a few monsters, you'll really, REALLY, spam free-TP aoes on your enemies...

Come on, nerf, really?.

A reflexion: All skills are made for something and have some meaning, you just need to analyze and think about it two minutes for realizing it... Well, all skills except Careful Synthesis I.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Come on, nerf, really?.

A reflexion: All skills are made for something and have some meaning, you just need to analyze and think about it two minutes for realizing it... Well, all skills except Careful Synthesis I.

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The problem is that it doesn't pay you to use WM outside of the opener. Unless some exaggerated downtime where barrage/he/rs all happen to be off cd, then it would be worth bringing up wm for that barrage alone. This mostly only happens in more casual content like extremes etc.

The barrage nerf was quite hard btw. Barrage was what would spike up bards damage a little outside the opener but now dps is on a long slow plummet afterwards. Empyreal arrow barrage is awesome but the 3 second cast to get back into wm makes it worthless and clunky.

I feel making wm insta cast is exactly just what bards need right now.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

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Wait what? Lets see here, I don't know if you play BRD here but Barrage only affects certain skills, can not crit (in fact it removes the crit from straighter shot if used) and is used up on first hit.

WP, your example doesn't work. By the time you see something would not be silenced, it is far too late. Also, if I am with my normal group that I intend to raid with, that gets silenced without question. You're implying that playing with a competent group makes that ability basically a waste? The development team wasted there time with it since I don't have any reason to actually use it for gain.

Yes, IJ does reset DoTs after they appear to have fallen off. Key word appear. They didn't fall off, its the stupid game that is not set up to count damage client side and has to do everything at a server tick rate. This is the reason that sometimes the debuffs start at 17s instead of 18. This has nothing to do with timing it right, it is shear luck on what side of the server tick it counts.

What AoE buff? You mean RNG? RoD reset is based on a DoT crit, there is no buff here. You have to have RNG on your side. It is still usually more valuable to use QN instead. On top of that, AoE is for trash pulls, and who cares about trash pulls.

Losing auto attack is also a big part of it, a bards auto attack does 20-25% of their total dps on average, WM would be fine if they just enabled auto attack during it, it'd be enough to bring bard inline with the other dps.

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Originally Posted by Scyris

Losing auto attack is also a big part of it, a bards auto attack does 20-25% of their total dps on average, WM would be fine if they just enabled auto attack during it, it'd be enough to bring bard inline with the other dps.

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I agree, but idk if auto attacks is enough to make up 700-800 dps. i179 nins are doing 1700 dps, i179 brd only 800ish..its just not enough.

Bard is destroyed, we are now Black Mage-lite, in terms of playstyle and damage.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

snip.

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indeed we are but hopefully not for a very long time considering how much hate SE is getting for this bard change right now and not just from us all forums are full with it japanese the most

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Originally Posted by yamochan

indeed we are but hopefully not for a very long time considering how much hate SE is getting for this bard change right now and not just from us all forums are full with it japanese the most

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Historically speaking, BRDs only get fixed, all the time since 2.0. LOL. I don't have much hopes on it.

Probably leaning towards MCH right now.