If I'm misreading the OP, he can correct me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owatatsumi
But I'm fairly sure what the OP is asking for is a way to skip the 2.0 quests that are literally *Go kill 10 mobs while we discuss this, when you get back we'll have an answer".
Those sorts of quests add nothing to the story and in HW, the huge chunks of XP (2.x sidequests gave the same XP as a MSQ, in HW MSQs are double sidequest XP) and short sharp cutscenes remove the need to have those 'filler' quests 2.0 had.
Removing, or speeding up the tedium of the filler quests in the MSQ would be a good thing, leaving behind only the straight up story.
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06-22-2015, 03:17 PMSylve
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06-22-2015, 03:24 PMValkyrieL
NO NO NO NO.....
Keep it gate it forever, I'm loving HW, not a single gold spammer.
Bots that are found farming will be delayed significantly by this. -
06-22-2015, 03:49 PM3Jane
I know some in this game since launch, who although they keep up with the story often only skim or skip the text where it doesn't seem vital to the main body of the story, whereas I tend to read it all in detail :D. Even so they have been consistently ahead of me by a long margin since the launch of ARR. Largely because they on the whole use their time more efficiently and are generally more organised as players, so they progress more swiftly. There really isn't that much detailed second string MSQ to complete and the rest of the leveling is about as fast as you can get without being given L50 as a new player. The whole O.P complaint is stems from a vastly over exaggerated 'emperor's new game issue.'
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06-22-2015, 03:52 PMRichardButteIt's not the leveling story that the biggest problem (though I've had two friends quit because it wasn't grabbing them). It's the sudden influx of story quest when you hit 50 that's the real issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
And the issue is that there's actually not a whole hell of a lot of story there. It's a relatively small amount of story broken into tiny little pieces, separated by piles of fedex and fetch quests that add absolutely nothing to the experience.
And HW's story quest is KILLING this by comparison.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
I see the abridged version as similar to what the Count's journal does in HW: you see a brief cutscene with some narration explaining what the warrior of light (aka you) did, what the scions did, etc. and then you'd fight whatever boss monster or run whatever dungeon was necessary because I feel that part of the story should remain since it's actually challenging and far more fun.
1. Gold spammers aren't dependent upon reaching HW content to spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by ValkyrieL
2. While this does technically slow the gathering bots, it also makes it hard for genuine players who just want to enjoy the game.
Except that two friends I've played MMOs with in the past have already quit the game because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Jane
There's really no reason to have a new player slog through as much level 50 MSQ as they do now. When these quests were released, they were padded like crazy to add extra play time to the game, and most of it was pure filler content that had nothing to do with the main story (fetch this, talk to this guy, kill that, etc.).
It's not even a question of whether or not the story is good (though I think it was so so until HW). It's the fact that 2.0's MSQ is a lot like a Dragon Ball Z episode: 5 minutes of actual plot, 25 minutes of screaming. :P -
06-22-2015, 04:21 PMKiara1
This is also a reason why I cant get my friends to join.
And an FC mate whos a very busy life but resubs every 3 months or so came back for the exp and he is disappointed he had to run through all the msq.
He was at shiva though so eith the fc help we helped him through the trials, but he wanted to join us in the new zones -
06-22-2015, 06:03 PMLilyanna
I think the grind to HW wouldn't be as bad for new players if they didn't gate the new classes. If players that came into the game for those classes could level them (Even if you had to get to CCH, or make them 1 lvl for new and lvl 30 if you got into HW.) it would reduce the amount of it feeling like a complete grind, but I agree about all the filler quests ... and the LS ... You spoke to me while deep in Prea but can't talk to me across a map? ./srsly
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06-22-2015, 06:23 PMSnugglebutt
It should stay as it is in basic principle, no one should get a skip ahead to HW content if was up to me. I can't help but feel most of the people complaining are thinking of it in hindsight as a player who has ran through the story already and not coming at it from a new player perspective at all. People complaining about fetch quests and kill X amount of things quests or go here speak to X NPC? It's an MMO...those are for the most part the sort of content in all MMO's like this one dating back to the days of Ultima, maybe even further back. Every new player I have met in game and talked to including my RL friends who joined like the fact this game is so story focus and story so heavily linked to progression.
What else would you be expecting? Feel free to list all the other ways that you want to level that excludes going from A to B, killing something over and over again or gather multiple of items. You whine about fetch quests and how might not find going doing the things I just mentioned fun but even if skip story quests...your still doing those same things whether grinding fates, dungeons or leves. The nature of MMO's is grind and that cannot be eradicated or removed because doing anything more than once to gain something is technically grind including everything non-story related in this game but at least with having a story focus and interjected into that grind it makes it more interesting.
A new player should expect this game to be story driven for the most part and progression linked to it because that is how it has always been so as a buyer understand product your buying before buy it. A new player who does not like story focused/progression linked MMO like this one has maybe chosen the wrong game and maybe would feel more at home playing something else, you can't please everyone but at least know what the product your buying is about instead of buying and wishing it was something else. The pre-HW story progression is interesting for the most part despite the fact many of the quests rely on MMO tropes and they are rewarding too in terms of quest rewards, gearing up and supplying you with a lot of gil by the time reach HW such as materia's and things from them to sell. I also love the fact I haven't seen a single gil farming (mining, botany or SB farming) bots in any of the HW zones thanks to the story progression requirement.
I make around 1-2 million gil per character running through ARR main story quests alone just from selling the rewards in the market board, it goes against the one character>all classes ideology but is beneficial in terms of income and the story keeps it fairly interesting in the way of breaking up what would otherwise be pure grind. You don't have to do coils or any raids to gear up VERY fast ready for HW start plus does not require much in the way of tome grinding instead if don't want to do Lab and maybe ST to be geared enough for completion of ARR story/HW start. Even if did want to go the Lab>ST route for quick gearing it doesn't take long at all these days to do so and you don't even need to do WoD etc to be geared enough.
The pacing could do with improving in between some level ranges adding few more main story quests pre-HW especially in the level 40-50 range so people have something to focus on besides grinding for example few times would come across quest chain gap of multiple levels which would be reduced to one level at most between them but other than that it is not that bad. You don't have to unlock the raids, you don't have to unlock the EX modes and the NM and HM versions of trials can be breezed through for the most part. It's not hard and it doesn't take long to clear ARR main quests up to HW even if just do them in between taking breaks from pure boring grinding if that floats your boat.
This is not the 1980's anymore with cheat codes to bypass everything you don't like in order to gain your instant gratification and neither should it be in relation to the genre that this game falls within. WoW tried their P2W instant gratification of allowing the buying a high level character and it has done nothing much to stop WoW's continued demise and decrease in subscribers while this MMO on the other hand with it's heavy story focus and trying to avoid P2W schemes like that continues to increase quite rapidly in subscribers instead of a rapid decline. -
06-22-2015, 06:28 PMSnugglebuttDoes not mean SE should let everyone bypass everything they do not like and do what they came into it to do from the offset without the effort required to reach that goal anymore so than a player coming into the game because they want to experience final coil or alexander so SE giving them a level capped character with top tier gear and a skip story progression option from the offset, this is an MMO, your expected to work towards a goal over a period of time and being an MMO that means grinds of one form or another whether that's reaching a certain level to unlock something or completing a string of quests or saving up enough gil, tomes or running instances multiple times. Carrot and stick, in this case the carrot is the new classes and HW content which is working quite well for SE plus most players are happy with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyanna
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06-22-2015, 06:30 PMApeachs
Agreed, way to hard for a new player to catch up. They also might become "lost" with all the sidequests and everything you need to do. The ingame help is very messy. No ingame guide ether. Almost so you must sit down with patch notes and go throught them to figure out stuff.
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06-22-2015, 06:45 PMKydi
I came back to ffxiv about 6 weeks ago for the expansion. I had previously played from about 2.2 to 2.3, had a couple of jobs at 50 and had done a bit of raid content. I didn't manage to do all the stories, so when I resubbed had to do the main quest from Mog onwards. Now, this isn't too bad, but what did strike me as surprising was the volume of FedEx quests. All too often a quest was simply talk to someone in another city to complete the quest, watch a short cut scene, then get another quest from them and talk to the original question giver. I managed it in a few days, although it was a good 15 hours content (including queues), so in glad I had a week off work.
I understand that Heavensward made some changes to the levelling and I believe streamlined it a little in terms of msq, but I'm not sure to what extent. Can you hit 50 by only doing the main quest? The other problem is the deluge of quests at level 50. I still have hundreds left around Revenant's Toll as I just didn't know what they were. I'm currently levelling DRK and will probably use this to clean up all of those quests too before embarking on the expansion quests. -
06-22-2015, 06:59 PMPr0c3ss0r
Story is still tons of easy EXP, maybe OP already forgot about that.
Just imagine if new player that join would be forced to do Fate + wait dungeon all day =/ that for sure a good reason to not join this game.
Story is long yes, but very rewarding, and i don't think it should be removed. -
06-22-2015, 07:03 PMSnugglebutt...or understand the concept, principles and difference between MMO's which are by their nature meant to be a time sink that requires time and effort in order to gain or achieve the thing you wanted instead of instant gratification of a single player offline game that allows for cheat codes or console commands to bypass everything you don't like to get to the part you do because you can't be bothered or are to lazy to put in that effort. Ones who understand that time is money and the more time spent by people...the more money for SE especially for a subscription based MMO which is why grind and effort is needed, why there is no instant win button for the game, why SE tries to avoid P2W services plus why the requirement of gating aspects of the game through level requirements, ilevel requirements or story progression is essential.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxSliphxX
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06-22-2015, 07:07 PMLewtskieGood lord this was a nightmare to read. Mostly it was the run-on sentences, but really it's the tangents. Half the time it sounded like you understood what the OP meant, and the other half just poorly written rambling. Not trying to be an asshole, but please, parse yourself next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
That aside; The issue here is there are parts of the MSQ that really are now redundant. We can speak in hindsight cause we know how ridiculous it is and that it's not necessary anymore. Back then the fluff was to keep us busy while enough content was still rolling out. But now, come expansion, there's going to even more piled and that fluff isn't necessary nor desired. It adds nothing to the experience and only serves to frustrate.
Grind should only exist when there's justification for it. This is why every major patch roll out something became easier to obtain. Atma drop rates increasing, pony whistles increase, increase in tomes of the month and removal of weekly caps. Even now, everything about the relic quest of old has been upped to expedite the process, because they aren't needed anymore. Same goes for the malarkey that was a lot of the MSQ. What rewards existed there can easily be cannibalized into other, more important ones.
They have shown a consistent track record of wanting to push people into current, more popular content sooner every major update. Back then it was still justified to keep the story fluff and continue making it because there was a definitive end. But now, we're going to have new fluff for a new story and piling that fluff on top of current fluff is going to clog something. And honestly I'm on the boat that believes that gating the expansion is a good thing. This game IS very story driven, that is good. Side episodes that lead to nowhere is bad. We want folks to enjoy the story where it is important.
Helping to setup your own banquet before setting out to fight Titan was legit and built on something.
Fetching tea leaves or some such shit for Tataru didn't amount to a damn thing and she can get off her lazy ass and do it herself. -
06-22-2015, 07:09 PMSartoriThey aren't going to change just for a few people that are too lazy to do the main questQuote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
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06-22-2015, 07:10 PMReinhaThis is inaccurate. It's maybe 100 hours total if the person watches all cutscenes and carefully reads all quest text, but that isn't necessary when doing the fetch quests. People have caught up in less than two weeks. The story may have been released over 2 years but the it really isn't that long. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
I think the suggestion to reduce some fetching is a good one. They could simply make them sidequests that get unlocked when you get to the right part. That way the player can choose to do them for xp or skip to the next cool part in the story. I don't think the main scenario should be completely optional though. Even if some people love raiding in FFXIV, the fact remains that main scenario is a core part of the game. Some MMOs focus on pvp, some on raids and this one is story focused. -
06-22-2015, 09:02 PMSylveI said it before, and i'll say it again, the OP is NOT asking to skip the whole story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
What he is asking for is for Square to go back over the 2.0 (only, not the patch content) MSQ and tweak out the boring filler quests that are MSQs but are nothing more than "go keep yourself busy while we come to a conclusion".
2.0 used those fillers to give free easy XP and instil a sense of time having passed, 3.0 does it with cutscenes and dialogue. The 3.0 way is MUCH better.
Thats all. No one is wanting to be able to create a new character and waltz into Ishgard. All the Story is intact, only the filler is removed. -
06-22-2015, 09:09 PMReynhart
A simple thing.
Remove all the parts where Minfilia contact us by linkpearl to ask that we meet her, then, telling us face to face that we need to go there...just tell us via linkpearl !!!!!! -
06-22-2015, 09:27 PMQuixoticaQuote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
There are a lot of story quest links that could be trimmed out with no loss for anything. I've done many a "Story Quest" working my way up towards 50 that had nothing at all to do with anything far as I could tell. Most egregious I can think of right off the bat is a quest that had me wait tables at a bar in Shroud and deliver food to people.. why is that an important step? How is that possibly contributing anything but bloat? It'd be a cute side quest, but it adds nothing of value to the Story chain.
There are tons of these things. Entire chains or invidual steps that contribute little and boil down to nothing but the worst kind of MMO busy work. -
06-22-2015, 09:33 PMKamikazeMan
They should release a video for each patch and summarize the story in them. That way all new players HAVE to do is grind to 50
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06-22-2015, 10:15 PMAmelia_Pond_BehemothThis much I can agree with. I still feel Ishgard access should be gated, but new jobs could have been handled better. One of the main draws for new expansions in XI was new jobs. I would have hated it if I needed to have Sea or Sky access in order to unlock BLU, COR, or PUP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbital-Dragon
I think the new jobs should have been less strict. Make MCH require ARC at least 30 and LNC 15. Make AST require CNJ 30 and THM 15. Then finally, DRK could go either way with MRD and GLD just as long as one job was 30 and the other was 15. Then once these conditions were met, you get your new weapon, and you ideally have level 30 gear appropriate for the new job. -
06-22-2015, 10:22 PMReynhartPlease, please...not have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbital-Dragon
On topic, they could have put Astrologian in the Observatorium, and Dark Knight in Whitebrim...and Machnist...wherever they want, I have no idea of the lore behind it, yet :p -
06-22-2015, 10:25 PMArrelaine
My husband wanted to play Dark Knight, but he's only level 30. He's not sure if he wants to level and get through the MSQ to unlock Ishgard and DK. Good thing he didn't order the expansion for himself, since we didn't know if the new classes would be locked behind Ishgard or if you'd have to be 30 like you have to be level 10 to unlock rogue.
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06-22-2015, 10:29 PMJin-
Just finished the Sylph lands, that pain. Run to this, run back to New Gridania, repeat 100x times before Story dungeon :/
I'm level 30. -
06-22-2015, 10:36 PMTerribad
It discouraging the players that left as well. I left back when the ilvl cap was i90. I don't mind doing story quests but I don't want to do that many just to play a class I want. My friends that left at the same time feel the same way. Then I have a handful of friends that would also like to give this game a try, but some of them want the new jobs that they can't get to.
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06-22-2015, 10:39 PMSovereignAegis
The storyline is tons of experience points now.
They may be unhappy at present but in reality they will hit level 60 without having to grind a single dungeon I'd reckon.
Pick your poison. I am currently queued for yet more Aerie, the level 55 dungeon. Quests that are diverse or mindless dungeon grind because you didn't get all that exp. In that sense, new players are spared a lot.
I am also happily ignoring the fact for everyone's benefit that hitting level 50 is trivially easy now, I leveled machinist from 30-50 under 24 hours of playing it. In an MMO that is alarmingly fast, this generation has no idea how RF Online or Silkroad was... you did not hit cap easily if ever.
Also "I hate the fact I can't be the class I want"... with the minimum 50% exp buff you get from a higher level character + the cross class skills you will appreciate fully having done other classes. Plus these 3 introduced classes are not easy at all, if you don't know mechanics then you will outright fail to play them properly. WHM is far easier and reliable than AST, Bard is better than MCH (period, the MCH is weak as hell) and Dark Knight ... 80% of the players even now have no idea how to play it and feel squishy like a ninja for real- no exaggeration here. (I am a Scholar, so healer, and they are squishy as a ninja). -
06-22-2015, 10:57 PMSylveI take issue with this statement, I'm presently 52 on my Machinist and Gauss Barrel is amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SovereignAegis
My BRD is boring as hell (also 50) compared to the priority based nature of the Machinist. The Machinist is very much an unforgiving Job that requires you to play well, you can't be mediocre as a Machinist and do acceptable damage. Same for AST and DRK really, You simply *must* do it right and failure to do it properly is VERY noticeable. -
06-22-2015, 10:59 PMTuathaaAll the filler and fluff make people not care about the main story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owatatsumi
It needs to be trimmed and the quest rewards should give the needed gear to finish the msq.
Spending the time to grind ilvl100 gear to only have it replaced with 115 gear in the first few quests is ridiculous. -
06-22-2015, 11:40 PMSylveThey've half done this already, the MSQ at 50 rewards weathered gear. (So im told) All they need to do now is trim the fat (fillers) out of the 2.0 storyline and we're golden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuathaa
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06-22-2015, 11:44 PMKayoZThis, thank you! Its the least they could do! I dont even care about the fetch quests, theyre annoying but quick and easy. Its waiting to break ilvlX before being allowed into dungein/trial Y thats just stupid. Grinding is an endgame thing because there is really nothing much else to do at that point. I have an entire expansion id like to get into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuathaa
By all mighty Hydaelyn I hope youre right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
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06-23-2015, 12:16 AMCanadaneBut you're given level 8 gear only to have it replaced with 12 gear in just a couple more quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuathaa
It's not all that different, really. -
06-23-2015, 12:56 AMRand_althor
I agree.
I started playing the game less then a month ago. Spend most of my time doing low level stuff, once I realized I need to finish all the story quests to reach HW I started leveling my Dragoon, lvl 37, Friday. Reached 50 and while the prospect of doing all those quests annoyed me a bit it went better then expected considering many of those quests helped me reach level 50.
The issue begins after the quest "The Ultimate Weapon", most of the quests beyond this point (I have yet to finish this), are as stated go there- talk to this person - come back, which really started to be boring.
I can only imagine what new played in a few month/years from now will feel if this decision stayed which is way the idea the OP suggested seems great, created some kind of "video" or a quest text to quickly tell all that happens in between the more major quests with the option of completing the quests later. -
06-23-2015, 01:13 AMRichardButteFirst of all, "tedious" ≠ "challenging". A monkey pounding on a keyboard could finish all of the story quest at 50 (except for the trials and dungeons, which are the best parts). Something taking a long time to do doesn't mean it's good content, or fun, or worth doing, or difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebutt
Second, the problem with the story at 50 is that it's actually self-defeating in how badly broken up and fragmented it is.
Imagine taking an episode of "House", then stretching an hour worth of actual story to 24 hours, including showing us filler scenes of Hugh Laurie doing things like making breakfast in silence or watering his plants. These pointless scenes would occur between the actual interesting part of the story where he's trying to determine what bizarre illness the patient has.
The end result of this highlights the irony of "wanting players to experience the story": everyone would be fast forwarding through the boring parts of "House", just as you better believe that, by the 30th fetch quest in the 50 MSQ, EVERYONE is going to have entered "escape mashing mode" because they've been drowned in so much boring filler that they no longer have the patience to sort the genuine story from the fluff.
So again, not only will an abridging system make the MSQ at 50 vastly more tolerable, but it'll also ensure that MORE players actually see the story. -
06-23-2015, 01:49 AMEisen-Zorn
There is a section between levels 27-30 that requires you to go meet the Sylphs. That part of the story is so slow and pointless that I warn people about it.
As for the abridged story for new players, you really can't do that. There is an actual story reason why your character is not allowed in to Ishgard, so just play the game and work through it like the rest of us. -
06-23-2015, 02:00 AMKisaiTenshiI think the problem here is that you are trying to force your friends to through the storyline instead of letting them enjoy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
In every RPG... there are two reasons why people quit:
a) It's too grindy.
b) It's too boring.
The first problem is more easily rectified by having their friends actually help them. I'm far more willing to redo storyline than I'm willing to redo bloody kill-and-fetch quests.
The second problem is that it's not the right game for your friend. Yes FFXIV needs a little more coax'ing to get to where the storyline feels important (In FFXIV V1.0 I never really got into the storyline because there was no real direction in what you should be doing next.) At least V2.0 doesn't do that.
What would improve the quest system just enough to solve B is to delineate the difference between Main Quest, Class/Job quest, and Optional quests. The optional quests are just for experience and gear and aren't repeatable. In order to get to level 30, you have to actually do the main quest and the class quests and if the people you play with are having trouble with the class they picked (maybe whatever they picked is no fun, think about the queue times.) Once you get to 30, you have the extra required-to-do-but-not-evident Job quests which are setup as optional quests.
So that's a lot of stuff to do just to get on the "right track" with whatever role you want to play in the game. -
06-23-2015, 02:12 AMTuathaaGiven level 8 gear is way different than grinding level 8 gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
It's also a moot point if they are rewarding 110 gear now unlike the way it was -
06-23-2015, 02:12 AMRichardButteAbridging the story doesn't mean not telling it. It means summarizing it so that people can get through it in a reasonable amount of time instead of a massively long slog which is mostly filler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn
The 2.0+ story wasn't that bad if you did it over the course of a few years as it was released, but to have to do it all in one cluster is a chore to say the least.
Our experience isn't the same as that of what a new player is facing right now. That's why I feel it should be abridged. -
06-23-2015, 02:14 AMAylin
I'm one of those lucky bunch who quit quite awhile ago (right after Moggle Mog was added) and came back for Heavensward.
While I am enjoying parts of slogging through the main story quests (the rewards are nice!), a lot of the inane quests (find these kids who are hiding! Deliver uniforms to these 8 people! Run back and forth between Whitebrim and Dragonhead 15 times!) are what are making it painful. I have no problem with having to catch up on the storyline to move forward it just... it feels like it's taking a lifetime. I just did Snowcloak last night, but already my friends are 53+ and flying. It's not a great feeling to miss out playing with them, which is a big part of the reason I came back. :/
I would be ecstatic if there was a way to cut out the "b.s." and still hit the important parts of the story on the way to finally access the material I dropped money on. :| -
06-23-2015, 02:21 AMLuvbunny
FF14 is a Final Fantasy games first. If you ever play any of the offline FF games, most are littered with mundane quests and side quests that encourage exploration (and to showcase how dumb the npcs are) - mostly are contents that add "hours of gameplay". It is a story driven game, so be ready to deal with it. It is no different than Dragon Age or Skyrim, where you do a bunch of quests - kill X enemies, go fetch me my stuffs cuz I am too lazy to do it, BAM 100 hours of "gameplay". Honestly if you want a game that lets you get into the action with very little story, you can play Destiny - ignore the non existent story and dive in straight into the action.
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06-23-2015, 02:22 AMRichardButteI'm not forcing them through anything. The game requires them to go through the storyline to access new content. I'm not even rushing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
The problem is that every leg of the story quest is 1 part actual story and 10 parts boring, pointless filler. The end result is that going through the 50 MSQ is an ordeal instead of fun. :\
And I help my friends with the parts I CAN help with (trials, dungeons, etc.). There's nothing I can do to help anyone with fedex quests. :( -
06-23-2015, 02:31 AMEisen-Zorn
Wanting to skip through the main story just so you can get to the new jobs and content is like wanting to play FF VII, but wanting to skip to disc two because it's old and you can't be bothered.