My thoughts on machinist (Up to level 42)

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

I personnally get a better feel of the class when playing w/ Gauss Barrel on.

It feels great honestly, the job feels a lot less clunky and you roughtly understand they created the class with having GB in mind. Also, this is super cool to play with GB on because with your procs you can move a lot around!

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I like to think of it as BLM with firestarter procs :P

Currently only a lvl 42 MCH. I'm a bit concerned for future play based on what I've seen so far. I'll stick it out til 52, but right now the playstyle is very telling.

Reload/Ammo system is clunky and poorly designed. The +20 potency for EVERY weaponskill used is simply a waste considering you need those stacks to guarantee procs from the very wimpy gun-combo. They need to take that back to the drawing board and give us something better.

Hot Shot seems like it was just added to give us something else to hit. 5% dmg buff for 30 seconds? What is even the point of making that into a skill? Just roll the 5% into one of our action damage traits and give us something thats actually fun to use.

Reassemble has no balls. Doesn't work on AoE's - which is really the only time it's worth using it. None of our skills has a higher potency than 200, which is really sad. Guaranteed crit on a single target with 200 potency? Whoop-dee-friggin-doo.

Dismantle and Rend Mind share a cooldown. They are only 5% and 90s CD though. They should either combine the effects or make them each 10%.

Gauss Barrel seems like a neutered version of Wanderer's Minuet. Only we don't get the arsenal of insta-cast skills that WanMin Bards have. We get.. Gauss Round (200 potency again!)

RapidFire should be at least 5 skills, not just 3.

Wildfire sounds cool but is very underwhelming in reality. It doesn't have an animation, sound effect, and I don't even think the damage shows up in floating text either...

Too much time staring at the hotbar on the main combo. The way they worded these skills in the live letter made it sound like; "Use the skill and have a 50% chance to proc its secondary effect. If it doesn't proc the first time, it'll proc on the second time" - sort of a failsafe. Thats not what we got though, and its resulted in me having to stare a procs instead of enjoying the visuals.

Something that's been a problem for me, especially in dungeons, has been problems with lag with attacks. Every fight there's several times I'll hit a key, the animation for the attack will start and then stop mid way, forcing me to hit the key again for it to finally go off properly. There's even been times it's done the full animation, bullets and everything, but no damage was dealt and I still had the proc on the ability. Definitely clunky.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

MCH has potential, but that 50% RNG combo proc is what kills it. I tried leveling AST a bit today, and the DPS was so low with 2 MCH, that it literally took 45min to do haukke, they really need to fix that..


Cause as of now, MCH is probably the lowest DPS, even lower than Arcanist.

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Bard was actually lowest DPS below Summoner pre expansion. Now SMN is phenomenal. Unless you mean the actual Arcanist class then LOL, damn.

I would say the biggest QoL change is to make ammo only consumed by abilities with increased effect (currently only Split Shot, Slug Shot).

Would be a very good change and not feel wasted when using dots, hot shot, or clean shot.

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Originally Posted by LoreChief

Dismantle and Rend Mind share a cooldown. They are only 5% and 90s CD though. They should either combine the effects or make them each 10%.

Gauss Barrel seems like a neutered version of Wanderer's Minuet. Only we don't get the arsenal of insta-cast skills that WanMin Bards have. We get.. Gauss Round (200 potency again!)

RapidFire should be at least 5 skills, not just 3.

Wildfire sounds cool but is very underwhelming in reality. It doesn't have an animation, sound effect, and I don't even think the damage shows up in floating text either...

Too much time staring at the hotbar on the main combo. The way they worded these skills in the live letter made it sound like; "Use the skill and have a 50% chance to proc its secondary effect. If it doesn't proc the first time, it'll proc on the second time" - sort of a failsafe. Thats not what we got though, and its resulted in me having to stare a procs instead of enjoying the visuals.

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I pick up classes pretty quickly (not bragging, I just do) and I also still have to stare at the bar. It makes things very boring when you're literally staring at hotbars instead of the actual fight. It's like you're playing a mini tactical game mode.

Which then you look at bard that is 90x easier with the same benefits and wonder why the hell you're doing it?

For the record I got MCH up to 50 and quit it. If I want to do DPS I will either go summoner or I will level Bard. Machinist is not even close to viable for how much effort it takes to play. The buffs are weak, the debuffs are weak (5% values for real on these all on long cooldown timers!!?!?!?! WTF!!?!! AT LEAST MAKE THAT HORRIBLY LOW VALUE CONSTANT), the 1-2-3 combo requires constant staring at hotbars and for what? Bard does the same damage.

My potential fixes.
Make the slug/clean shot procs 100% after 2 or 3 split/slug shots. Less
Add some punch to ammo effects on the non combo moves OR have ANY ammo'd shot trigger slugs proc.
Remove hp requirement on heartbreak and make it 100% crit when target is under 20%

Updated post with my numerous criticisms.

Do not think I am trying to bring Machinists down, I LOVE their concept and gunner was one of my fave FF tactics classes. Enjoyed it so much and so I was so excited I leveled MCH first of all!

... However it needs A LOT of improvements across the board to be competitive. At present a MCH will never get a raid group spot, period.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

MCH has potential, but that 50% RNG combo proc is what kills it. I tried leveling AST a bit today, and the DPS was so low with 2 MCH, that it literally took 45min to do haukke, they really need to fix that..


Cause as of now, MCH is probably the lowest DPS, even lower than Arcanist.

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I did Haukke with 2 MCH, a DRK and an AST and we cleared it in around 25 mins or so. No issues at all.

I can't vouch for Machinist yet, but I'd like to remind a few that it shouldn't be compared to a melee job like Ninja or Dragoon. As a melee (and DRG being more or less pure damage), they're entitled to have higher potentcies on their attacks.They aren't categorized as "support DPS" and being melee forces them to disengage the enemies more often than a ranged job.

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Originally Posted by Meui

I can't vouch for Machinist yet, but I'd like to remind a few that it shouldn't be compared to a melee job like Ninja or Dragoon. As a melee (and DRG being more or less pure damage), they're entitled to have higher potentcies on their attacks.They aren't categorized as "support DPS" and being melee forces them to disengage the enemies more often than a ranged job.

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Aye, I agree.

However it cannot be outright ignored. But for the most part I am comparing them directly to Bard who is currently displacing them from static raid groups outright.

My proposed fixes:

1. Wildfire is 30% damage, 35% traited, and triggers as an AoE instead of Single Target.
2. As proposed multiple times; the proc rate is additive. If you don't get Split Shot/Slug Shot proc, you get 100% chance the next time around.
3. We need at least 1 skill with 300-ish potency.
4. Reassemble needs to work with AoE's.
5. Gauss Rifle (and likely Wanderers Minuet) needs to be 30% extra dmg not 20%
6. Hotshot needs to be replaced with something fun and interesting.
7. Straight Shot needs to be cross-class to us

Quality of life changes:
1. Wildfire damage needs to be visible (also needs an animation, casting animation, and a proper sound effect)
2. Turret damage needs to be visible (also needs a proper sound effect)
3. Ammo needs to only be consumed by Split and Slug Shot.

Both Wildfire and Turret damage are already visible...

i returned to ffxiv with the expansion and i'm currently also lvling the MCH got my hands on him today, so it's to soon to speak, but i used to play BRD too and others, and never ever felt the need to star at hotbars, and like was said in here with MCH i was and still do it a bit, but i'm trying to organize HUD layote as i did with other Classes to ease off the need to stare at hot bar and also made this macro that i want to know your opinion.

i know that with this i lose the control on Reaload and Quick Reload but atleast i don't need to be always looking for CD expecially when i can't see a Timer with Numbers (the clockwise countdown doesn't help, never did)

macro 1 -
/macroicon "Split Shot"
/ac "Heartbreak"
/ac "Reload"
/ac "Rapid Fire" (i feel like this shouldn't be here, but for now im using it)
/ac "Split Shot"
/ac "Quick Reload"

macro 2 -
/macroicon "Clean Shot"
/ac "Reassemble"
/ac "Clean Shot"

with this i don't need to be looking at the hotbar expecially with a vertical bar near the character with all the buff CD, i still lose track of the Hotshot sometimes if im not perma monitoring buffs this skill is my problem because looking at Mob DoTs looking at Mobs attack pattern moving around etc sometimes i do forget Hotshot ...

Here it comes people not having machinist to 60 are going to tell how to improve machinist.

For the love of god, parsers aren't updated and we have yet to find out the best rotation for this class. Also we don't know how it's gonna be in a raid environment, so please just STOP trying to tell how developers should change this class.

The "no proc qq" might be a design choice and also might not be a problem, but it also could, for the moment we don't know. Let some time to the players to figure how to play this class.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Here it comes people not having machinist to 60 are going to tell how to improve machinist.

For the love of god, parsers aren't updated and we have yet to find out the best rotation for this class. Also we don't know how it's gonna be in a raid environment, so please just STOP trying to tell how developers should change this class.

The "no proc qq" might be a design choice and also might not be a problem, but it also could, for the moment we don't know. Let some time to the players to figure how to play this class.

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i didn't said that something should be changed, i just said what i was doing to adapt to MCH skills in answering/questioning the topic. i'm loving the class and i feel like as soon as one grasp the learning curve all becomes automated.

(I played as healer too, whm i have a 12 buttone mouse and i do use Q/E/R/T/F/G/Z/X/C/V keyboard keys too, and i do respect a lot players that play SCH and now "Astroboy" those 2 classes are like a plane cockpit of buttons...)

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Here it comes people not having machinist to 60 are going to tell how to improve machinist.

For the love of god, parsers aren't updated and we have yet to find out the best rotation for this class. Also we don't know how it's gonna be in a raid environment, so please just STOP trying to tell how developers should change this class.

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True, it's very hard to tell, even though there was an updated parser, it may not be right. I'm only ilvl116 level 53 atm, but im not that far behind zeta ilvl 130 players, but this guy makes it seems we'll be outright never allowed in anything, which SE wouldnt allow:

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

However it cannot be outright ignored. But for the most part I am comparing them directly to Bard who is currently displacing them from static raid groups outright.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Here it comes people not having machinist to 60 are going to tell how to improve machinist.

For the love of god, parsers aren't updated and we have yet to find out the best rotation for this class. Also we don't know how it's gonna be in a raid environment, so please just STOP trying to tell how developers should change this class.

The "no proc qq" might be a design choice and also might not be a problem, but it also could, for the moment we don't know. Let some time to the players to figure how to play this class.

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I explicitly waited until I could do raids and I was not impressed.

And with all due respect where is the MCH magically getting numbers? Where are they magically getting utility? The numbers of potency, cooldowns, 5% 90s cooldown 10s duration "debuffs" all speak for themselves. There is no magical place we're going to magically see damage or utility at level 60 pour out of.

There are problems with the class at it's very foundations, I waited to 50 and held off criticism until that point- however it is obvious when playing something is wrong with it. Looking at the potency numbers, cooldowns, etc makes it all extremely clear WHY it felt wrong even when I was in my 40s. The Bard, who shares an unfortunately staggeringly similar role, absolutely at this point in time destroys the machinist with raw numbers and in game practicality.

I agree I want proper parsers and to see it, believe me I WANT to love this class.

But I've already been told I will not be accepted into a static with this class. This is unacceptable that Bard stomps so hard over this class.

It's noticeably better after 54 when you get Gauss Round. 200 Potency (300 Potency due to traits + Gauss Barrel) per 20 sec off gcd it feels much smoother now

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Originally Posted by Shinun

It's noticeably better after 54 when you get Gauss Round. 200 Potency (300 Potency due to traits + Gauss Barrel) per 20 sec off gcd it feels much smoother now

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I do not disagree, however look at what Bard gets:

1: Empyreal Arrow:15s cooldown, 240 potency. No shared cooldown.

2: Iron Jaws: 2.5s cooldown, 240 potency. Does not share recast timer with any other actions. Also resets DoT timers.

3: SideWinder does 350 potency damage on a 60s cooldown

All 3 of these are similar to our gauss barrel mode.


We cannot compete with that. We just can't. They have more selection, higher base damages and lower cooldowns. We are literally second class citizens in comparison.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I do not disagree, however look at what Bard gets:

1: Empyreal Arrow:15s cooldown, 240 potency. No shared cooldown.

2: Iron Jaws: 2.5s cooldown, 240 potency. Does not share recast timer with any other actions. Also resets DoT timers.

3: SideWinder does 350 potency damage on a 60s cooldown

All 3 of these are similar to our gauss barrel mode.


We cannot compete with that. We just can't. They have more selection, higher base damages and lower cooldowns. We are literally second class citizens in comparison.

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and yet 2 of the 3 are (almost) useless for bards as well.

I will definitely agree that from 30-40, MCH is gimped. As others have said, we're like a SMN without a pet at that point. Everything we have is lower potency compared to other jobs because the turret is supposed to make up for it.

My big question is, does it? Does the turret do enough damage to compensate for the MCH inherently low damage? If not, then that's a part of the problem. The turret needs to provide enough damage to make up for the dps loss we take from our lower potency attacks. It's already bad enough that we have to pre-cast it before every fight (and if you forget, you just wasted a couple seconds waiting for it to be placed and activate), but if the damage it does can't make up for all we lose, then it needs a buff (or we do).

I will say that since getting my turret, double MCH groups have been clearing with decent times. Not as good as a fully geared other class that's been synced, of course, but not too many problems. If anything, the job just feels clunky when ammunition is down.

exept machinist is not supposed to be a pet jobs, the turret is like a dot, that why machinist have only one dot.
Dot+Rook Tower = 100 potency, it's like one auto attack bonus, but other jobs do have 70-80 potency dot combined and deal far more damage.

that where the trouble lie, the dps of the machinist is far too low in comparaison of the other jobs.

i will not talk of the gauss barrel mode that are simply garbage, the loose of the auto-attack is way too much in comparaison of the +20% damage.

Gauss Barrel needs to increase proc chance from 50% to at least 65% chance...unless we are CURRENTLY beta testing these jobs for SE and stuff will be adjusted in the first couple patches

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

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Something that people do not really understand is that it's hard to put a higher potency on slug shot and clean shot, because it would mean that if you dont have any luck your DPS would be way lower than if you had some. Some may also forgot we have a turret and we still don't know (really) what's their DPS on a extended period of time.

I'll just leave this here : Do not judge classes/job when they're first released. Everyone was crying over SMN in 2.0 saying how terribad they were. Yes it was mostly due because parsers weren't parsing dots correctly but still. ppl couldn't say wether they were doing damage or not while it was OP as hell and it got nerfed multiple time.

What if it's the same case with the machinist? We don't know so it's only normal that with the 3 new classes you need time to know if it's gonna do well in raid content.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

I'll just leave this here : Do not judge classes/job when they're first released. Everyone was crying over SMN in 2.0 saying how terribad they were. Yes it was mostly due because parsers weren't parsing dots correctly but still. ppl couldn't say wether they were doing damage or not while it was OP as hell and it got nerfed multiple time.

What if it's the same case with the machinist? We don't know so it's only normal that with the 3 new classes you need time to know if it's gonna do well in raid content.

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This is completely unnecessary. The parsers are picking up everything correctly and it's extremely easy to do the math yourself, or even just run a dungeon once with a MCH and then once with a BRD (since they share so much gear, it's easy to have near-identical sets for both) and see the HUGE difference in clear speeds between the two classes.

30-39 in particular is extremely horrifying for MCH as the class was obviously designed with the turret in mind, but does not have the DPS to keep up even with the turret.

So far, I haven't had too many issues now that I have my turret. It's annoying having to toss it or every time, but damage hasn't been horrible and we've been cleaning dungeons in a reasonable time. People also have to remember that a lot of players in low level dungeons right now aren't really grades, either. It's not a bunch of ilvl 110 people who have been synced, which would obviously increase dps and speed things up.

My only real complaint is that the shots seem to proc less than 50% at times. I'll get maybe one or two procs in a row, but more often than not, I seem to go 6-7 shots before getting a proc. I also agree Hot Shot also seems a bit pointless. Yeah, 5% increase to damage, but it requires a global cooldown to keep up and does poor damage. I'd rather have it be a 30 sec cooldown ability that off the global.

The extra 20 potency from ammo also is lackluster. It equals about 120 extra potency and would rather have it not be wasted on non proc abilities.

Parses are coming in for BRD/MCH comparisons now that ACT is properly tracking all of the outputs from MCH. They aren't looking any better than we're saying they are lol. It's pretty sad. BRD is coming out ahead even with the "pacification bug".

Some of the parses here; http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...damage_vs_brd/

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Something that people do not really understand is that it's hard to put a higher potency on slug shot and clean shot, because it would mean that if you dont have any luck your DPS would be way lower than if you had some. Some may also forgot we have a turret and we still don't know (really) what's their DPS on a extended period of time.

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I dunno. It seems to me they should have a higher potency exactly because they don't proc often. To make up for all the times you have bad luck.

And Heartbreak needs to have its cooldown halved. On bard I can use Misery's End on almost every mob in a trash pack, Heartbreak I can only use on the first because it's not even close to being up yet by the time it becomes usable on the rest.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

And Heartbreak needs to have its cooldown halved. On bard I can use Misery's End on almost every mob in a trash pack, Heartbreak I can only use on the first because it's not even close to being up yet by the time it becomes usable on the rest.

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Buffs may be in order, but I'd leave heartbreak. At least the way it is it's not a TOTAL copy/paste.

Actually what *I'd* do is remove it entirely, because mch shouldn't be taking brd moves that aren't essential to fill it's spot in a raid. That's unlikely to happen though.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

Buffs may be in order, but I'd leave heartbreak. At least the way it is it's not a TOTAL copy/paste.

Actually what *I'd* do is remove it entirely, because mch shouldn't be taking brd moves that aren't essential to fill it's spot in a raid. That's unlikely to happen though.

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Considering Ninjas have Assassinate, which is a similar mechanic (just slightly higher potency on four times the cooldown), I agree. That makes three classes with 20% or less finishers moves and no consistency between them.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Considering Ninjas have Assassinate, which is a similar mechanic (just slightly higher potency on four times the cooldown), I agree. That makes three classes with 20% or less finishers moves and no consistency between them.

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It's a physical class type of thing. Dragoon, Monk, Warrior and Paladin have one too. The only classes that don't have a 20% finisher are the casters.

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

It's a physical class type of thing. Dragoon, Monk, Warrior and Paladin have one too. The only classes that don't have a 20% finisher are the casters.

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MNK doesn't have one unless you crossclass warriors execute

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Originally Posted by Slirith

MNK doesn't have one unless you crossclass warriors execute

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They don't have one because they can crossclass one yes. and there's no reason to not crossclass free extra damage.

I think all the execute skills should have some sort of secondary effect like Mercy Stroke. Something like;

* Assassinate: If enemy dies within 3 seconds of use, cooldown is refreshed.
* Misery's End: If windbite/venom active on enemy and they are below 10% HP, they instantly trigger for an additional 50 potency each.
* Heartbreak: If enemy dies within 3 seconds of use, Quick Reload cooldown is refreshed.
* Mercy Stroke: same thing, but changed to proc within 3 seconds of death instead of having to be *THE* killing blow.

That's just me though. I don't like when all skills are the same.

It would seem that this thought and concern is voiced elsewhere!

The word has gotten out, let us all hope that the developers help us!

I want to love this class, and I love so much about it but it needs help!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ious-attention

I completely agree that this class needs serious attention. There are so many issues atm that are holding this job back that I feel were put in place when this job was tested with a machine playing it in a vacuum with optimal testing capabilities (like attacking a dummy).

The job feels very unfinished and in serious need of editing. There are way too many useless skills that's convoluting this class. SE, please look at MCH before Alexander and give it a buff so we can raid with this job until you get more of a chance to fix it properly.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I completely agree that this class needs serious attention. There are so many issues atm that are holding this job back that I feel were put in place when this job was tested with a machine playing it in a vacuum with optimal testing capabilities (like attacking a dummy).

The job feels very unfinished and in serious need of editing. There are way too many useless skills that's convoluting this class. SE, please look at MCH before Alexander and give it a buff so we can raid with this job until you get more of a chance to fix it properly.

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I agree fully, I am glad Alex is release later because at present Machinist will NEVER be taken to it in any organized group play.

In terms of useless skills? Man oh man we have a lot, and they take up premium skill slots that other classes get godlike skills in.
Eg: That 25% "damage accumulated timebomb" does nothing. And it wastes a skill AND A TRAIT.

Eg: Mindbreak/Dismantle
Eg: Hotshot with 5%... 5%... is a joke.

And a few others come to mind but these are the paramount glaring examples