[Massive spoilers - do not read until storyline complete] I hate the ending

If I weren't a healer? Well, I am an alchemist, so I might have had a remedy on me for the poison. Considering the speed it worked at and Nanamo's dying body language, I'm fairly certain it was a concentrated paralysis poison, so some muscle relaxers or something to hastily reduce the swelling could work in theory.

Moot point though. The chances of having an effective antidote are slim to none.

As far as the "rampage would look bad"... that already happens, it's just not you doing it. Pap and Yda literally start killing Blades, etc. to help you escape. Thancred has already killed people before you see him.

The "looking bad" is misleading here, if you're actually saying any of the people at that matter, because Ilberd admits he killed the Sultana out loud while there. If any of those people had opinions that matter...

If the argument is that those people didn't *actually* die, then there's no reason a monk or whatever couldn't have just beaten up people without killing them. If the argument is "but your monk doesn't have weapons" - lvl 50 monks lead off with a kick anyway, and we still have our feet.

As to the not having an actual cure to the poison, you could do what you normally do if stuck in dungeon without a cure (see: Brayflox with a Scholar, since they don't have leeches at that lvl cap). You just keep curing to keep them alive till the problem can be fixed.

We aren't going on a rampage during the escape, just trying to... escape. Maybe some of the other Scions kill a few guards, but besides that there's no blood on any of the heroes' hands. Raubahn kills Teledji, but well...

(And no, I don't think it's OK for them to wave off killing people, but I suspect they knew what would happen and were perfectly OK with dirtying their hands.)

Nope, nobody's opinion in the room really matters. With the Sultana out of the picture and Teledji's mouthy ass dead, Lolorito is the richest, and by extension most powerful, man in Ul'dah (he always has been, he's just exercising that power now). Assuming there's a trial with the normal Western judge and jury, he could easily pay them off to get an outcome favorable to him.

Doesn't matter if you lead off with your feet, the numbers were way too high to fight and most attacks are still fist weapon-enhanced punches. Go punch someone wearing chain mail, tell me who gets hurt more.

Even if you want to go in as a healer class and keep Nanamo alive through magic, you can't. Magic classes use their weapons to channel aether for spells... and we didn't have them!!!

Even if you want to cheat, they won't letcha!

This has been argued a lot but Ill throw in one more time.

To all those who though they should have fought back, lets say you did just that. Lets say you thrashed the guards sent to arrest you. What then? What are you going to do will Teleji? What are you going to do with the Handmaiden who was there (and to the best of the players knowledge was innocent). Even if you take Teleji and force him to tell the truth, where exactly are you going to take him. You'll almost certainly have to get past the Sultansworn who will want you to hand Teleji over to them regardless of if they are corrupt or not. You know, cause of the Law.

But lets say you take out Teleji and Lolorito (who you have no idea where he is and have limited opportunity to capture). What then? You've pretty much just removed most of Ul'dah's leadership, particularly now that Nanamo is dead. While you may have reputation on your side the seizing of power is under very dubious circumstances since you've completely ignored the rule of law. You also cant be sure you've gotten all of the monetarists who now would have a field day spreading rumors and sowing decent. Even if Raubahn takes power its going to look like he held a coup.

Regardless, the Brass blades would effectively be disbanded as would the Crystal Braves meaning the policing bodies in Ul'dah would be greatly reduced. The Immortal Flames could take over but that means spreading themselves more thinly including drawing forces away from the Ala Mhigan Frontline at a time when the Empire is likely mobilising for future incursions.

There is no way that the WoL could have used force here which wouldn't end up in a crippled Ul'dah. The WoL is going to NEED to have the citizens of Ul'dah firmly behind them or at least Raubahn before overthrowing the Monetarists or Ul'dah will decend into anarchy and the Eorzean Alliance would be in a shambles.

Not only that, but killing / capturing Lolorito would deprive the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves of their meal ticket, so they'd still be out for your head.

EDIT FOR BELOW (Boo post limit!)

Certainly true but with Lolorito dead or captured, the Braves and Blades' lives just got a lot harder. As the single most affluent man in Ul'dah Lolorito can pay salaries higher than anyone else; he's their golden goose, so to speak. They'd be on you like white on rice, at least for a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Not only that, but killing / capturing Lolorito would deprive the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves of their meal ticket, so they'd still be out for your head.

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Unless 3.X shows us another side of him, I actually doubt Lolorito has anyone truly loyal to him. It's the inherent problem in where he gets his "power" from, after all. Whoever he's bought out will simply move on to the next-best payroll. You can't buy the kind of loyalty that actively seeks revenge.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Unless 3.X shows us another side of him, I actually doubt Lolorito has anyone truly loyal to him. It's the inherent problem in where he gets his "power" from, after all. Whoever he's bought out will simply move on to the next-best payroll. You can't buy the kind of loyalty that actively seeks revenge.

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Lolorito might not, but Teleji? Do remember that in 2.2 he seemed like a stand up guy to us. That's his public face. Someone who seems to care for the welfare of the refugees but is looking for an effective means of solving the problem productively, which is a very Ul'dahian way of doing things. Likewise, while Lolorito isn't likely to be loved, his is almost certainly respected and more important, there is likely a lot of individuals heavily invested in him. Lets add to the fact that the Crystal Braves have been earning Browny points in Ul'dah by protecting the peace and looking after the commonfolk during the upheavals.

And as far as public opinion goes, they have the advantage. We could force Teleji to 'own up' but then we would need to hand him over to face justice under the law. Worse, the Handmaiden, who most would assume is devoted to Nanamo, could provide a testimony that made it look like we actually did it and tried forcing Teleji to take the fall for it, and there would be nothing we could do to counter it before its too late since we had no idea of the Handmaiden's loyalties. Our characters still don't.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

lots of words

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woah there full stop

We were talking in hypotheticals, and I replied with "hired thugs probably don't give a damn about the guy paying them." Which is more or less the usual. Nobody said anything about the court of public opinion. I was just being snarky out of pre-EA boredom.

My canned response to 2.5's story developments (any of them) has always been, "no way in hell am I happy about any of this, but if it actually goes somewhere I'll consider forgiving you."

As long as I get to kill Ilberd and ruin Lolorito in 3.x I dont care how it went down.
I never liked Ilberd from the moment I met him and I've been gunning for Lolorito since my first run in with the brass blades outside the Sil'dih ruins.

Yea I'm just guessing the storyline sucks right here to make us buy heavensward for that sweet sweet lalafel murdering.

Sign me up!

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You're quite right that the scions are a buncha goody two shoes however. They really lack a lancer with Raubahn out of commission.

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Oh man, how awesome would it be if Raunahn joined the Scions? It would make sense, too. He'll obviously want to keep fighting the good fight, but I doubt he'd be able to accomplish much in Ul'dah. Besides, that's probably going to be Pipin's job.

Edit, so I don't completely flood the thread with posts

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Originally Posted by Edellis

2) Senna and Merlwyb could not intervene. When someone gets accused of killing the most important figure in a massive state, the last thing you want to do is be put on the blaming end. This is multiplied even farther by them also being the leaders of massive states.

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This is the first time I've bought the "Merlwyb and Kan-E couldn't do anything excuse. I've always said they could have at least said something to indicate to you and the masses that you didn't do it, even if they didn't physically try to defend you. The idea that the Monetarists could pounce on that and say the assassination was a Limsa or Gridania plot, is a pretty good reason for them to keep their mouths shut.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

As long as I get to kill Ilberd and ruin Lolorito in 3.x I dont care how it went down.
I never liked Ilberd from the moment I met him and I've been gunning for Lolorito since my first run in with the brass blades outside the Sil'dih ruins.

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I have the gut feeling that Lolorito is somehow a good guy (or at least thinks he has good motives). I do not have one shred of evidence to back that up, I just think that's where the story will go.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

snip

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On the other hand, if you were to kill everyone in the room, who would be left to argue against you when you told all of Ul'dah that Teleji and Lolorito poisoned the Sultana and you had to kill them and their guards in the struggle afterwards. That story is a lot easier to swallow than Lolorito's version would have been. Even if it had gone flawlessly, every person in Ul'dah would have realized (or at least suspected) that the Monatarists, the ones with actualy motive to kill Nanamo, were the ones who did the dead, rather than the Warrior of Light who had no reason to kill the Sultana, and has proven themselves a hero time and again.

That is, of course, assuming you actually could kill everyone in the room. I do think it could have been done with the combined might of the Scions, plus the leaders of all 3 armies, but it would have been quite the gamble on the part of Merlwyb and Kan-E-senna.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

On the other hand, if you were to kill everyone in the room, who would be left to argue against you when you told all of Ul'dah that Teleji and Lolorito poisoned the Sultana and you had to kill them and their guards in the struggle afterwards. That story is a lot easier to swallow than Lolorito's version would have been. Even if it had gone flawlessly, every person in Ul'dah would have realized (or at least suspected) that the Monatarists, the ones with actualy motive to kill Nanamo, were the ones who did the dead, rather than the Warrior of Light who had no reason to kill the Sultana, and has proven themselves a hero time and again.

That is, of course, assuming you actually could kill everyone in the room. I do think it could have been done with the combined might of the Scions, plus the leaders of all 3 armies, but it would have been quite the gamble on the part of Merlwyb and Kan-E-senna.

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Sure, assuming your only enemies are in the room. However consider this as fuel for rumors. Raubahn, an Ala Mhigan refugee, suddenly gaining power in Ul'dah shortly after his second in command and trusted confidant turned out to be high ranking Garlean spy. Ilberd, the primary lead in that investigation getting killed by Raubahn during his 'coup'. Minfilia is infact the daughter of a former Garlean spy (though he was infact a double agent) and has been hiding her true identity from everyone. Both Minfilia and the WoL have a power that allows them to 'enter' the souls of other people to experience their past and learn their secrets.

This whole turn of events would, regardless of intentions, be a group of foreigners illegally usurping the rulers of Ul'dah and placing Raubahn in charge. It would look even worse if either of the GC leaders got involved. Even if they were guilty, the fact we act as judge and executioner with no respect to Ul'dah law undermines any claims to acting in a just fashion. No matter what we argue the common folk of Ul'dah probably don't believe EVERY organisation in Ul'dah has suffered from corruption, even though most of them have. Do remember this will probably involve us having to kill Sultansworn too.

This is again ignoring the fact that you have not only cut out the leadership of Ul'dah but also undermined the source of its finances that fund its security. While you could argue we could just seize Lolorito's money, chances are Ul'dah law takes the inheritance of money extremely seriously and if we ignored those laws we would become unpopular in Ul'dah REALLY fast. As corrupt as the Brass Blades currently are, they are also the only standing police force in Ul'dah apart from the Crystal Braves, who are also corrupt. While the Immortal Flames could step in to the role, that would weaken the areas they are currently defending such as the lands around the Amalj'aa and the Border with Ala Mhigo. You really don't want Ul'dah to be weakening its defences against potential invasion by the Garleans.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

I have the gut feeling that Lolorito is somehow a good guy (or at least thinks he has good motives). I do not have one shred of evidence to back that up, I just think that's where the story will go.

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I just want to kill Ilberd. I want to nock lolorito down a few pegs by exposing him for the corrupt rech he really is and financially destroy him.

I dont care what his motives are I just want to see Lolorito go down because he's an arrogant, money grubbing, jack ass.

Killing ilberd is too good for him he needs to be strung up by his toes near little Ala mhigo and have a cactuar constantly using 1000 needles on him while a healer keeps him alive for the rest of his days