Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Man, this thread has ruined my immersion in the game...

Nah, just joking! Good job with the OP, Konata!

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Hehe, I was gonna throw exactly the same joke into the end of my opening post but thought people may interpret it as me not taking the matter seriously :P

And thanks ^.^

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

The only thing that can cause you to be immersed in FFXIV is your own willingness to. If you cannot become immersed in it, it is because you cannot accept it or something within it. This is not because of something that is contained within the game, this is your own inability to accept something. Therefore the game is not at fault, blame cannot be thrown at it or the developers. Your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. If it were possible to put a numbered percentage on the games current immersion it would be at a constant 100% no matter what anyone argued otherwise. It is at 100% simply by it existing and allowing people to play it.

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Really good OP.

The only part I disagree with is your conclusion's first paragraph which I quoted.
By the definition of immersion that you've offered, "To engage wholly or deeply; absorb," it's clear that the game is not 100% immersive simply by existing.

Examples:
1. Watching Netflix while crafting.
2. Making something to eat while held prisoner on a boat.
3. Reading the forums while auto running long distances.

You see, immersion as your definition details, is dictated by the level of involvement and focus required to master/enjoy the moment. That goes for reading, studying, watching movies, ect.

XIV fails at requiring skill/focus for an overwhelming amount of its content and that. Not instaporting, short airship rides or jumping, is what ruins immersion.

With that said, I wholeheartedly agree with your observation that personal responsibility to be immersed is something people should consider before posting on the subject.

As far as misuse goes, porting couldn't be a worse offender. An ability that lets you quickly travel from an area that's boring to an area you want to be in with only a slight pause can't possibly ruin immersion by definition.

For reference, this post is by a player with enough imagination for 50 people who can suspend disbelief indefinitely if need be.

*sigh.....*

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Most of the article in that link was explaining immersiveness when being used to tell stories. Your arguements so far have been about the immersiveness of the FFXIV world (Teleporting etc.) FFXIV features a story but it is not it's entire purpose. Stories and online video games are two totally different things. A story in a book is JUST a story, a story in a game is just part of it's entirity. The article that has been linked does not counter my statement.

Untill you can come up with a legitimate FACTUAL reason with proper information that tells me how the facts I stated in the original post are wrong, you cannot prove that what I am saying is wrong, you can only make baseless statements using irrelevant information in an attempt to to catch me off guard and say something that will differ from my original post.

I however, will not fall for this.

Your statement is still incorrect.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

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Both authors and major publishers of tabletop role-playing games consider them to be a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling.[8][9][10] Events, characters and narrative structure give a sense of a narrative experience, and the game need not have a strongly-defined storyline

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

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The player in RPGs controls one character, or several adventuring party members, fulfilling one or many quests. The major similarities with pen-and-paper games involve developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion.

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Immersion is a part of RPGs

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I only say nice things because I'm a nice person.

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I enjoy your upbeat attitude and friendly demeanor.

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Originally Posted by Commat

I don't know why but damn did I LOL at that.

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lol i felt it was too mean and removed it

outher fail thread for inmersion
this people want waste of time runing point a to point b all day and everyday

for me inmersion= content

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

lol i felt it was too mean and removed it

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Don't worry I won't out you. I've fixed my post accordingly.

Your mom affects game immersion. That is all. Tank you. Please drive through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion

Immersion (virtual reality) - the state of consciousness where an immersant's awareness of physical self is diminished or lost by being surrounded in an engrossing total environment.

Immersion is a state of mind.

State's of mind vary from player to player.

There is no possible way to maximize immersion for every player.

Therefore Square's goal will be maximizing profits by catering to the majority.

If the majority of FFXIV players are casual gamers (players who do not have alot of time per gaming session to play), then that is who will be catered to.

If the majority of FFXIV players are hardcore gamers (players who have alot of time per gaming session to play), then that is who will be catered to.

This is the only feasible way to do business - cater to a majority.

If a business caters to a minority, they will not be in business for long.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Most of the article in that link was explaining immersiveness when being used to tell stories. Your arguements so far have been about the immersiveness of the FFXIV world (Teleporting etc.) FFXIV features a story but it is not it's entire purpose. Stories and online video games are two totally different things. A story in a book is JUST a story, a story in a game is just part of it's entirity. The article that has been linked does not counter my statement.

Untill you can come up with a legitimate FACTUAL reason with proper information that tells me how the facts I stated in the original post are wrong, you cannot prove that what I am saying is wrong, you can only make baseless statements using irrelevant information in an attempt to to catch me off guard and say something that will differ from my original post.

I however, will not fall for this.

Your statement is still incorrect.

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look a few posts above at the definition of an RPG. It includes immersion. And why wouldn't it? RPG's are historically a combination of creative artistic worlds, in-depth stories, vast amounts of lore, wonder, imagination, and immersion.

If you want a game to be successful 'immersion' is important to take into account. It is created by a number of things such as:

+A continuous story + lore. Or in other words, the story and lore don't clash or change.
Example:
Lord of the Rings has Sauron, an antagonist with a detailed past.
Now imagine halfway through the LoTR series, Sauron -out of nowhere- turned into a cute fluffy sheep. You would probably be like "wtf?" and rightly so. Because it would destroy the story and would ruin any sense of immersion into the story and world.
I don't think there are any books that essentially just end randomly halfway through and go off on a completely different storyline and tangent. And if you ask yourself why, the clear answer is one of immersion. Stories are about immersing you in a fictional universe, and changing the lore or rules or characters in that universe randomly without an explanation destroys the feeling of immersion and ruins the story.

+Atmosphere. The atmosphere of a book, game, movie, etc, has a lot of effect on the ability to immerse someone into the media's world.
Examples:
Shadow of the Colossus is one of the highest praised "artistic" games on the PS2 scoring extremely good reviews from almost every site. The world is fairly massive and has no enemies whatsoever. There are just a number of bosses. So you run around for hours finding the bosses and then fight them. The game is successful because of its ability to immerse the player into its world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus

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Dave Ciccoricco, a literature lecturer at the University of Otago (and U of Canterbury NZ), praised the game for its use of long cutscenes and stretches of riding to make the player engage in self-reflection and feel immersed in the game world.

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http://www.brown.edu/Research/dichtu...ciccoricco.htm

So here you have a literature lecturer explaining how a games atmosphere immerses the player.

Another great example of a game that is simple but immerses the player through atmosphere is Limbo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game)
The game is considered to be an art game because the atmosphere is so well executed (both visual and audio wise)

+A connection to the world. The best stories, movies, and games, are able to create worlds that individuals can connect to and feel a part of. That means there are different types of characters, cultures, universal laws, history etc. None of this has to be realistic.
Examples:
Harry potter
Star wars
Most final fantasies (I personally liked ff JP6 / US3 the best)
The "Marvel" Universe
Xenosaga 1-3
Twilight (Don't knock it, there's a reason its so successful)
Stargate
Oblivion series
etc.

Most of the best immersive worlds out there have been turned into franchises because the depth of worlds have provided a huge incentive for individuals to want to come back and experiance that world again. When I was in grade 10 I ran a Harry Potter chat server with well over 100 people on at all times (its even mentioned in a few university published books on online communities). The point is, the 1000s of people that went on the chat Roleplayed most of the time pretending they were part of the Harry Potter world and creating their own characters. The new official harry potter site which has been flooded by applications seeks to provide that sense of immersion as well.

+Memorable characters
While this is not completely necessary, memorable characters tend to help people identify with a story and immerse themselves in the story and the world. For example harry potter has iconic characters like dumbledore and voldemort. FF7 has Aeries and Cloud. Do you really think FF7 would have been such a success if you just played a generic character and chose your allies like in tactics? Do you really think so many kids would RP Harry Potter stuff online or write 1000s of fan fics if instead of harry potter there were just short stories that took place in the wizarding world?

There are numerous other things that contribute to a feeling of immersion, and a feeling of immersion doesn't need everything listed and can be a combination of multiple ones.

However, FFXIV lacks almost all of them.

1. there are no real memorable characters
There might be a few minor chars, but there aren't any Shantotto's yet, no Prishes, and Cid hasn't played a serious role yet. The 3 leaders of the grand companies might become memorable at some point, but at the moment they haven't really played a huge part in any missions or quests.

2. the UI (minimap), instant teleportation, instant airships, etc all take away from the atmosphere.
And atmosphere alone has made some games complete hits. Having an intrusive UI and a minimap causes people to always look at the minimap and ignore the beautifully designed world. Having instant teleportation allows you to skip the world all together. Shadow of the Colossus didn't allow you to teleport around to each boss. You had to explore the world and find them. But through that exploration you -felt- something. Be it a sense of adventure, a love for the natural beauty, or the idea of being on a long journey. In doing this it immersed you into its world, and gained raving reviews becoming one of the best games of the year.

3. The lore is disjointed and makes it a chore for people to learn about the world, and the story line is erratic, jumps around, and doesn't seem to pull many people into the game (partly because you can beat bosses through parley thus eliminating the danger or sense of epicness)
People would have difficulty setting up an online RP for FFXIV because the lore and story just isn't accessible enough.

I could go on and on, but the point is, Immersion does matter for games. Not only does it matter for games, but it matters for books, movies and other forms of media as well. And while choice can be nice, it can also detract from immersion. For example, if Shadow of the Colossus allowed instant transportation it would have never got the reviews it did. And if you could choose to do whatever you wanted in most of the final fantasies and have no real main storyline or characters, they probably would never have been as successful.

Thus the arguments many people make on these boards about things affecting immersion are legitimate. Because those problems (mini-map, instant transportation, lack of overworld content) all effect the games overall immersive effect on -all- players. And its unfair to try to write those arguments off as an argument for realism and limitations, because that's not what they are. They are arguments for the future of FFXIV and whether or not it will be a log-on-port-fight-log-off game or an immersive experience like ffxi was.

Immersion is somewhat subjective, but when a company can pull it off, it is quite obvious and can be a strong contribution towards the critical success of a game. When I and others argue against ruining game immersion we are doing so because we have played great games in the past (some would argue ffxi) that immersed us in the world and made us want to come back, not necessarily for the gameplay but for the atmosphere, environment, story, lore, characters, etc. We see FFXIV slipping away from this to become focused on gameplay only and many of us don't believe that will lead to success. Final Fantasy is a franchise based on story and immersion. That is its strength, and we would like to see them play to their strengths and not diminish them.

I don't want your 'immersion' to affect my fun.

Chew on that for a minute.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I don't want your 'immersion' to affect my fun.

Chew on that for a minute.

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Players such as Azurymber do not recognize that game immersion is a personal state of mind that can be vastly different from player to player based on their personal likes and dislikes of the content, therefore they can not accept that their enjoyment of their personal immersion might not be fun for another player or immersive at all for another player.

Rest assured, I read your whole post.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Thus the arguments many people make on these boards about things affecting immersion are legitimate. Because those problems (mini-map, instant transportation, lack of overworld content) all effect the games overall immersive effect on -all- players.

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No, it doesn't affect -all- players, just you. What you call "problems" do not affect my ability to get into the game and forget my problems for awhile.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Immersion is somewhat subjective, but when a company can pull it off, it is quite obvious and can be a strong contribution towards the critical success of a game.

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And now you're admitting that your definition of "immersion" is subjective, contradicting everything you've just said.

while it may be subjective, games such as Shadow of the Colossus, books like harry potter, movies like star wars, all prove that if done right it can draw in almost anyone.

Saying you don't want immersion to effect your fun is essentially a pro-botter stance, since botters will argue they only bot to make the game more fun. So by your logic no one should stop them even though they negatively effect the game, because we would be detracting from their fun.

to put the argument another way. Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play. Ignoring immersion to create a "fun" or "easy" game may allow for more choice but at the same time a lackluster game. To be successful fun and convenience needs to be balanced with immersion.

Those not interested in immersion shouldn't be playing MMO's since MMORPG's are meant to be immersive to some extent. If you want instant gratification games without overworlds you have stuff like diablo.

Let me put it another way. Those arguing that immersion such as scrapping instant ports ruins their fun are essentially arguing that every videogame released should come with built in cheat codes that let you god mode, insta port, skip levels, etc. Because then the player can choose how much they want to immerse themselves into the game.
.... but how many games -really- do that?

If the argument for easy-moding is such a strong one, every game should be released with cheats included, because then more people would have fun right? And if no one is doing it, then the few games that do should get -much- better ratings and have a much more competitive edge and force other games to do it (capitalism).
but they aren't are they?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play.

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As long as they ARE immersed by the content.

Players who are NOT immersed by the content will not play.

You ARE immersed by traveling slow.

I am NOT immersed by traveling slow.

You will play the game that includes slow traveling, I will not play the game that does not include fast traveling.

If the game adds an option to travel fast along with the option to travel slow, we BOTH will play the game.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

while it may be subjective, game such as Shadow of the Colossus, books like harry potter, movies like star wars, all prove that if done right it can draw in almost anyone.

Saying you don't want immersion to effect your fun is essentially a pro-botter stance, since botters will argue they only bot to make the game more fun. So by your logic no one should stop them even though they negatively effect the game, because we would be detracting from their fun.

to put the argument another way. Immersion will up ratings and draw people to play. Ignoring immersion to create a "fun" or "easy" game may allow for more choice but at the same time a lackluster game. Those not interested in immersion shouldn't be playing MMO's since MMORPG's are meant to be immersive to some extent. If you want instant gratification games without overworlds you have stuff like diablo.

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Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

the problem with teleportation is the animation, in FFXI it looked like you were being teleported when it was cast, in FFXIV this little ring appears, disappears, then 10 seconds later your character is gone

if they fixed that animation it makes it much easier to suspend your disbelief on teleportation

then they just need to fix the UI elements that effect some people by making them toggleable (Quest markers over NPC heads, Damage and XP popups in combat, etc)

thats about the only problems im seeing for the immersive aspect of the game, besides the copy paste world


but according to these forums immersion doesnt matter, so SE shouldnt be wasting time redesigning the copy paste world

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

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there is no choice in immersion, it is a feeling, it either happens or doesnt happen, you lose yourself in the game or you don't

Azurymber....
PLEASE GET THIS

What immerses you DOES NOT always immerse me.

PLEASE GET THIS.

Waiting on a boat or traveling far distances for the 1 millionth time does not immerse me.

Point eveyone is trying to get through your skull is immersion is different for each person. I HATE harry potter that does not immerse me. But my wife loves it.

PLEASE GET THIS

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Originally Posted by Finuve

there is no choice in immersion, it is a feeling, it either happens or doesnt happen, you lose yourself in the game or you don't

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this is wrong. If i chose not to play the game i wont get lost in it. I love football and i am immersed in WATCHING it but i will never play madden.

non of the arguments are correct since immersion is relative to the persons grasp of reality

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

non of the arguments are correct since immersion is relative to the persons grasp of reality

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Lol good point, how can someone with no grasp of reality be immersed in a fantasy world? XD

actually the less your grasp of reality the more immersed you are in the fantasy world since the fantasy world would be your reality.. very tricky subject

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

actually the less your grasp of reality the more immersed you are in the fantasy world since the fantasy world would be your reality.. very tricky subject

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Ooo, that's an awesome point.

Well then let's render Azury utterly insane and then she can finally immerse herself in FFXIV like the rest of us do.

I sincerely thank you for this post Konachibi. "Immersion" is clearly the popular buzzword for forum-goers at the moment and its about time everyone stopped throwing the term around to back up whatever point they're making.

It would be nice if we could stop all the arguements that go along the lines of "Oh but I have to look at FFXIV on a screen and so it doesn't feel real and this is ruining the IMMMERRRSSSIIIIOOONNNNlookatmeimagamedevelopernow."

One may as well say that Monopoly isn't immersive because you're playing on a board rather than running around a city building hotels everywhere.

Kudos, Konata.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Saying you don't want immersion to effect your fun is essentially a pro-botter stance...

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But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the things you claim to be ruining immersion for you are not necessarily ruining the immersion of other folks.

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Originally Posted by Caliburn

I sincerely thank you for this post Konachibi. "Immersion" is clearly the popular buzzword for forum-goers at the moment and its about time everyone stopped throwing the term around to back up whatever point they're making.

It would be nice if we could stop all the arguements that go along the lines of "Oh but I have to look at FFXIV on a screen and so it doesn't feel real and this is ruining the IMMMERRRSSSIIIIOOONNNNlookatmeimagamedevelopernow."

One may as well say that Monopoly isn't immersive because you're playing on a board rather than running around a city building hotels everywhere.

Kudos, Konata.

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Hehe, Monopoly sure would be a tough game if it was played like that XD

And thanks, I'm glad you appreciate it ^.^

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the things you claim to be ruining immersion for you are not necessarily ruining the immersion of other folks.

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Could I make claims that Azury argueing baselessly about immersion in the forums is ruining my forum immersion and therefore demand that she be removed from it so that I can enjoy MY immertion?

Everyone's ruining my immersion!!! Get out of my world!

What is this keyboard in front of me? I don't feel like I'm really writing anything! Ahhhh immersion!!

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Could I make claims that Azury argueing baselessly about immersion in the forums is ruining my forum immersion and therefore demand that she be removed from it so that I can enjoy MY immertion?

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Now now, Azury's arguements are not baseless to him, though they may seem that way to you (SUBJECTIVITY, GET IT?). He's got every right to share his opinion and defend it.

Immersion can be whatever the fk immerses me.

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Originally Posted by viion

Immersion can be whatever the fk immerses me.

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And Viion sums the entire thing up in just 36 letters. It's as simple as that (b'.')b

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Originally Posted by viion

Immersion can be whatever the fk immerses me.

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This is going on my signature if you don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Now now, Azury's arguements are not baseless to him, though they may seem that way to you (SUBJECTIVITY, GET IT?). He's got every right to share his opinion and defend it.

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Doesn't look like he's trying to share opinion, looks like he's trying to say the facts displayed were incorrent and that his own version of the word immersion is fact, when in fact, it is not. :P

Mostly though I was being sarcastic by using his own silly arguement against him.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

*sigh.....*

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Archadius already summed up this thread with four letters (and some punctuation) earlier, Konata. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Caliburn

This is going on my signature if you don't mind.

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NEWS UPDATE:

Konachibi's next new signature will feature the word 'immersion' in it somewhere. Stay tuned to next week's show for further developments.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Archadius already summed up this thread with four letters (and some punctuation) earlier, Konata. ^_^

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ah yes... so he did...

/sigh

I find it cute when people try to argue english definitions. Thank you all for the entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Belial

I find it cute when people try to argue english definitions. Thank you all for the entertainment.

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No problem, glad to give a giggle (b'.')b

Which reminds me, usually the biggest misunderstanding as to the use of a word comes from British people talking to American people. Americans just have this way of making words mean what they... don't mean. Y'know?

Soccer? What's that? No, I watch football! That's not football, you're watching Rugby!