Ideas for Samurai

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Yea, well the Ashigaru (peasant footmen) came up later and there wasn't a great tradition of them until later
The time before that, the samurai fought other samurai in army warfare during the clan wars that established 200-isolation era.

There was obviously a lot of evolution to the class over the history.
But it can't be denied they developed a sword culture too, and having a famous sword was a status symbol.
Having a good bow, not so much.

I don't think Archery was more worth for hiring as much as they filled the ranks with as much soldiers as they could.
The truly valuable soldiers were the ones who read the Classics and knew the ways of warfare.

And yea, for the last part, we're should be talking about iconography mostly, over history, and FF has its own Samurai tradition already.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Kind of funny that this makes the most sense when you are the focus of your opponent's attacks (and using this 'dancing around' to dodge), yet 'tanking' doesn't remotely allow for that kind of movement, especially because of all the people who won't be hit (except by instant cleaves) anyways need to be able to alternate between bashing the enemy's spine and obliques/flanks.

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Unless it's a Counter Tank!

I envision samurai to be similar to monk in that it would have stances or in this case the five stance in Kendo:

Chūdan-no-kamae
Gedan-no-kamae
Hassō-no-kamae
Jōdan-no-kamae
Waki-gamae

The progression is pretty much the same as you move through the stances with moves being only available in their respective stances, however unlike Monk you can start at any stance and progress through normally.

You will also build stacks and they build up similar to how wrath works for warriors and not like monk where only the coeurl form give you a stack. These stacks go up to 10 and are use for "Skillbreaks".

Skillbreaks is on a 30 sec cd and acts similar to using Inner Beast where you use up a certain amount of stacks (depending on which action you use) to gain an additional effect for the next action used. For example if you use Skillbreak then perform a skill under the stance "Jōdan-no-kamae" then it will gain double potency. There are five Skillbreak actions (one for each stance) ranging from more damage, adding a bleed dot, and even a bind.

Samurai can also perform a move (420 sec cd and only at full hp) called Seppuku where you inflict damage on yourself leaving you at 1 hp, bound and pacified for 5 seconds but deal the remaining damage to a boss. For example;

you have 9999/9999 hp > use Seppuku > 1/9999 hp > enemy takes 9998 damage.

It would be a mix of the monk and ninja where you gain stacks and then use them on skills off gcd to increase your dps. I would make Samurai more like the Dragoon where it offers not much raid utility but more like monk where if you stay in the fight longer you can be top dps and I imagine it would be top dps. This is countered by the fact that it lack any real party utility other than being a power house. I'd like it to be similar to the wandering Samurai lore in feudal Japan were you have these insanely strong swordsmen who can fend for themselves but often come to gripes when confronted in a party situation. Think Auron from FFX

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Yea, well the Ashigaru (peasant footmen) came up later and there wasn't a great tradition of them until later.

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I'm not refering to Ashigaru. 'Peasant warriors' does not necessarily mean Ashigaru. Ashigaru (足軽 - lightfeet) is a military term for a particular infantry class in the context of warfare after the establishment of the samurai class (and their pull in politics, eventually leading to the shogunate), so of course the term samurai predates it. Bushi, however, as a more general term for warrior, peasant or otherwise, predates the term Samurai, appearing before the Soga conflict (then referring to people or families trained for and/or charged with military duties, usually of protection) and most prevalently after the Taiho land reforms where the term tended to describe a generally poor class of near-thugs or hired killers/intimidators rather than the likeness of a "samurai class" or even the soldiers drafted for the Kyushu garrison. 'Samurai' as a term came into prevalence only into the decline in Fujiwara power and further divisioning of regional loyalties or especially the 1158 Insei (where the Bushi class, especially via the Minamoto, Taira, and a separate Fujiwara family replaced the former Fujiwara influence) and 1180-5 Genpei (combined on-readings of Minamoto and Taira) conflicts.

Moot point though and I apologize for drawing out this tangent.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I envision samurai to be similar to monk in that it would have stances or in this case the five stance in Kendo...

I would make Samurai more like the Dragoon where it offers not much raid utility but more like monk where if you stay in the fight longer you can be top dps and I imagine it would be top dps. This is countered by the fact that it lack any real party utility other than being a power house. I'd like it to be similar to the wandering Samurai lore in feudal Japan were you have these insanely strong swordsmen who can fend for themselves but often come to gripes when confronted in a party situation. Think Auron from FFX

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I'm not sure how effective stances would be as a gameplay mechanic when the entire point is to never be stuck in any one. They're basically end points for otherwise constant transitional movement. Unless each move variably ended at a certain different stance, and then that gap time between GCDs was somehow important, I just don't see how stances could really be applied. To stay in a stance is to never swing, or else to attempt to beat something to death with repeated, identical half-motion strikes, and even then that would only be because the midpoint (such that you could swing without leaving the stance officially) between those stances wasn't useful enough to get its own name.

I am all for SAM's only real party utility being whatever they, personally, can bring to the fight, though. That or something with a large enough variety rather than just Goad/Rezing/Binding, etc., but that would likewise follow Auron - Power Break, etc.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Unless it's a Counter Tank!

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Here's hoping.

i think the idea of the skill chain and stance is not bad, but i see it more like this:
- first for the stance: instead to get tons of action, make the action change depending of the stance, like this with the samurai you can have 3 skill based on vertical attack, horizontal attack and thrust. but with each stance it will change the effect of even the skill.
important to note, between each of the three action of a stance you can change freely into another stance.maybe they can put a limitation like with the system of stance of nightmare and siegfried from soulcalibur. you do a skill you can change into this stance or another,...

- second the skill chain, the idea is good and can be really interesting. by mixing it with the stance system i think you can offer more possibility and instead to have a combo system like the 3 other melee jobs, you will have system of skill chain.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Yea, well the term Bushi is much more relevant than Samurai for all intents and purposes. I really just didn't want to bring another term in. Plus it did connote the same meaning later on, and the Bushi class still eventually became synonymous with Samurai. People who had the rice stipends and land. Even the poor ones were still both Samurai/Bushi even when they didn't act like it.

You're right about the rest, but why talk about times that predate the Samurai when discussing the historical Samurai and how they fought? The time of the Samurai was certainly with the rise of the Shogunate so that's really the time period of any relevance to discuss. The peasant warriors fell out of disuse by this time, precisely because the Samurai had solidified the class status and wrested both military and political control of Japan at that point. This was the period of Samurai armies fighting other Samurai armies, so what better time to pull from in terms of iconography or considering the nature of the class (particularly for fighting)?

The Bushi before were still developing what would become the Bushi/Samurai later. Those might as well been proto-Samurai/Bushi. I don't really like using the terms Bushi and Samurai distinctively because they mostly used Bushi for any situation. Bushi, during the later period, still connoted the same elite status that Samurai during the time of the Shogunate. Then again, a lot of Samurai/Bushi were thugs and bullies during any given era so it was really just a matter of privelege (though the principles of Bushido were much more developed in the later periods).

Sorry for the tangent again! I hope SAM comes out soon.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Think Auron from FFX

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Auron had such good utility though. Then again all the FFX characters did because the whole system was based on using all of them for counters/buffs/debuffs.
Auron was undoubtedly the tank of that game(even though his damage was good), which is really a role of utility.

He had Sentinel, which made him protect all while he defended.
Also Guard, which took a hit for other characters.
He had Threaten to Stop an enemy.
He even had Entrust to give his Limit Gauge to an ally.
Then obviously all the Breaks.

His Kit was all utility to help the party out and he was clearly the defender and guardian of the group.
Entrust, Guard and Sentinel are particularly sacrificing his own damage/health for the group.

Still, I'd love for SAM to be designed after him.
Especially since his kit is already is based on group play so it's more easily adapted.

Much of Auron's utility kind of belongs already to other classes (single-use Cover, Goad since we have TP but no individual LBs outside of PvP, etc, no channeled mitigation but already a "Sentinel", no Stop debuff), and his great katana kind of belongs to two different domains, both SAM and DRK (one of DRK's weapons is already borrowed from Auron as is), so I kind of have to wonder how much ought to belong to a base class (e.g. Ronin) vs. the actual SAM job.

I'd love to see them be something that has to manage TP carefully through high cost moves and then the ability to regen some via combo's and long cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

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I love this idea. Obviously the devs would have to run it through testing and streamlining, but it could even be mixed with the skillchains idea. Could even have the high TP cost abilities and low combo abilities idea worked in from an above poster. Honestly, I think SAM could work great as a non-positional melee DPS, like dragoon is. Only like...2 moves maybe are better from one position than another. SAM could have deep complexity to make up for having absolutely no positional moves. I'd like another class where I really have to THINK as a DPS and build up to my burst damage with well-planned combos.

I think it would be cool to make samurai into a melee job that has cast times. It would be a new and yet challenging play-style that would use a combo system similar to say a ninja with cast times added to them along with some instant ogcds and long cooldown abilities. When i think of samurai I think of hard hitting precise strikes with build up. I think cast times would give it that feel.

FYI, they had hinted SAM will be tank job. they mention this early this year they SAM won't be coming coming in 3.0 release because they still figuring out how SAM could tank. While DRK was figure out.
I'm crossing my fingers that we would need to find SAM from Lady Yugiri homeland.

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Originally Posted by Jobefuzz

FYI, they had hinted SAM will be tank job. they mention this early this year they SAM won't be coming coming in 3.0 release because they still figuring out how SAM could tank. While DRK was figure out.
I'm crossing my fingers that we would need to find SAM from Lady Yugiri homeland.

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Actually, I recall them saying they were deciding between Samurai and Dark Knight for a tank and chose Dark Knight instead. In another interview Yoshida said he feels Samurai should be a DPS.

that is kind of lame, do they have something against dps classes having swords? the closest thing to a sword for dps in a ninja's daggers but daggers aren't swords.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

This is not FFXI.

Skillchains don't exist in this game. It would be a DPS with GCD's and oGCD's woven into the rotation, like every DPS in this game. No one wants to go back to the days of auto-attacking a mob for 90 seconds to pull off a "skillchain".

You also insinuate above that ranged dps do not have a rotation/priority system. BLM would like to speak to you, so would the Bard and SMN.

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If you can't comprehend his post, you should refrain from replying.

It's obvious he is referring to essentially altering the combo system currently in the game. Sort of a middle ground between NIN's mudra mechanic and current combos. Skill 1 + 2 = effect A. Skill 1 + 3 = effect B. Skill 3 + 2 = effect C, etc. This is actually more or less how I always envisioned SAM being implemented in this game. Heavily combo focused with much more freedom than a simple 1 2 3 combo.

Huh. This is basically one of my thoughts for Red Mage ((since they can't have Black magic and White magic, since each class has their own skills, and they can't be a bit of everything, since we have a strict Tank/Healer/DPS set up, the only "thing" that it has to it's name is double cast.)). If I'm understanding the "Skill Chain" logic of move one>move two =profit.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

I think it would be cool to make samurai into a melee job that has cast times. It would be a new and yet challenging play-style that would use a combo system similar to say a ninja with cast times added to them along with some instant ogcds and long cooldown abilities. When i think of samurai I think of hard hitting precise strikes with build up. I think cast times would give it that feel.

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I'm not sure how well cast times would work with a melee class. Melee has it even worse than ranged when it comes to having to dodge stuff and cast times could spell doom for them. That's why they have positionals instead.

I could picture samurai using a system similar to mudras-- they have a few different skills and depending on how they're used, it unlocks a more powerful, combo finisher. Or they could have it so attack fill a bar that unlocks the skills-- kind of like a mini lb bar. They could OGCD abilities that fill the bar faster or something.

Here's something I was asked to type up for an old SAM suggestion thread.

DRK was given some of the thingsI sort of wanted to see on SAM. With the DPS thing in mind, aesthetically you could base it on fast and effective use of skills (a reason I'd want Rurouni Kenshin to be the inspiration for SAM like Naruto was the inspiration for NIN and Berserk was the inspiration for DRK). Combos could be abilities split into categories, with the caveat that one skill has a unique effect on the next. Alternatively, you could focus SAM on the sword spirit thing that Final Fantasy Tactics toyed with for a bit, though I fear it may end up being mechanically similar to SMN's Bahamut trance.