ishgard

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Originally Posted by lololink

Shiva couldn't have been the first leader of Ishgard, the first leaders were Thordan that had a vision from Halone telling him to take Ishgard as their land, they encounter Niddhog that told them "Get out of my mountain !", they got mad, Thordan died, his son, Haldrath, attacked Niddhog and took his eye, becoming the first dragoon and the leader of Ishgard.

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Maybe that's just what the Thordan line wants you to think :P Maybe spin it from a tale of rebels causing troubles between the dragons and Ishgardians into a righteous story where Haldrath avenged his father and began Ishgard in his honor.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Maybe that's just what the Thordan line wants you to think :P Maybe spin it from a tale of rebels causing troubles between the dragons and Ishgardians into a righteous story where Haldrath avenged his father and began Ishgard in his honor.

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Well then one thing to ask is who exactly did the Warrior of Light take the form of at the end of the DRG Job story

cause it was an Elezen Male in shining Dragoon armour. That was the 'light' that banished Nidhogg's dark rancor.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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Dunno! Echo causes some weird stuff. I haven't seen the Dragoon's job quests yet (DoM 4 lyf!). Perhaps Haldrath was actually avenging his father, but Thordan isn't some innocent old man and purposely caused trouble due to Ascian influences?

I think its just as likely Nidhogg is corrupt. All we have seen strongly points to him being a enemy dragon. He is certainly been portrayed as very hostile and full of hate, particularly with the impression we get from the Dragoon quests. Hell, he even looks like a nasty black spiky dragon as opposed to his apparently more benevolent falcor looking brother. Rage, hate and darkness seem to be his thing.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I think its just as likely Nidhogg is corrupt. All we have seen strongly points to him being a enemy dragon. He is certainly been portrayed as very hostile and full of hate, particularly with the impression we get from the Dragoon quests. Hell, he even looks like a nasty black spiky dragon as opposed to his apparently more benevolent falcor looking brother. Rage, hate and darkness seem to be his thing.

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Rage, hate and darkness. Tooo much darkness and like a slight demon looking.
Coincidence? I dont think so >_<

It's pretty clear Nidhogg is corrupt and we'll probably have to put him down by the end of Heavensward, but we don't know what drove him to such a state of madness. Popular theory and the in-game explanation is it's because Haldrath gouged his eye out and took it as a trophy, but that's just Ishgard's side of the story. If there's anything Ysayle's right about, it's that we (and all of Ishgard) are unthinkingly fighting a war we don't know the purpose of.

Besides which, history is written by the winners. So while nothing in-game hints that my whole "Shiva hypothesis" is true, it's also possible it is true and all of that was covered up by the Holy See to solidify their grasp on power. A curious thing is that Ishgard's founder is "King Thordan I," while it's current ruler is "Archbishop Thordan VII." Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Besides which, history is written by the winners. So while nothing in-game hints that my whole "Shiva hypothesis" is true, it's also possible it is true and all of that was covered up by the Holy See to solidify their grasp on power. A curious thing is that Ishgard's founder is "King Thordan I," while it's current ruler is "Archbishop Thordan VII." Hmm...

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Yea on the past, or that's what it seems to be. Ishgard 's first leaders were kings, but now the Holy see ( is the church, right? ) has the total goverment control. What did change? When it was desided that the church have that kind of power?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Yea on the past, or that's what it seems to be. Ishgard 's first leaders were kings, but now the Holy see ( is the church, right? ) has the total goverment control. What did change? When it was desided that the church have that kind of power?

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Likely when the first king died from dragon-mind-powers and his son took to war against him. Halone led the people there, and likely the people turned to a more religious doctrine with the loss of their king. Haldrath probably became the first Archbishop, leaving the other four houses to be the royal houses for the new city.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Likely when the first king died from dragon-mind-powers and his son took to war against him. Halone led the people there, and likely the people turned to a more religious doctrine with the loss of their king. Haldrath probably became the first Archbishop, leaving the other four houses to be the royal houses for the new city.

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Hard to imagine that the first Azure Dragoon become the first Archbishop.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Hard to imagine that the first Azure Dragoon become the first Archbishop.

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Is it? A religion based on martial combat with another group may have one of its prized heroes become its leader, and then his bloodline become the head of that religion.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Is it? A religion based on martial combat with another group may have one of its prized heroes become its leader, and then his bloodline become the head of that religion.

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Why do we assume they are related? Thordan VII is what is called a Regnal name and regnal names are either first names or actually chosen by the monarch. On a side note, a papacy actually is a form of monarchy itself.

The fact that Thordan was the name of the father of the first dragoon and that it's the name taken by the pope is a sign that it might be related, the pope could also be elected but still Haldrath could have been the first pope.

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Originally Posted by lololink

The fact that Thordan was the name of the father of the first dragoon and that it's the name taken by the pope is a sign that it might be related, the pope could also be elected but still Haldrath could have been the first pope.

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Sharing a regnal name is absolutely not a indicator to relation. Pope Innocent III is utterly unrelated to Pope Innocent I.

Actually, this just came to my mind...

What if Shiva (the real one) was Haldrath's sister, King Thordan I's daughter? She fell in love with Nidhogg and brought the Spoken and dragons closer together, but Haldrath grew jealous of her happiness or didn't trust the dragons. This drove a wedge between Dravania and Ishgard until they teetered on war until Shiva somehow sacrificed herself to try and bring peace. At some manner of peace summit brokered with Shiva's life (possibly the Akh Afah Ampitheatre or the area we've been shown to meet Hraesvelgr at), Haldrath betrayed Thordan, killed him, and gouged out Nidhogg's eye. Then everything was covered up, the Holy See formed, and the Dragonsong War begun.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Thoughts?

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I Agree with you, I think the hole reason of this war is just a mix of beauty/beast thing + and all thing of ( if you arent mine you are no one's) ( to me of the echo vission im still thinking that that azure dragoon wanted to do soemthing that the 12 knights were oposed, and jugding hs face, it looked something personal )

On my opinion this holw war started by something really comon, but hard to see. The love of a woman.

Rivals in love leading to a propagandized war? Considering I've seen it's usage as a plot mechanism in books and animes before, I could see that as the stupidly simple underlying cause.

Regardless of who Shiva is, I don't think her relationship was with Nidhogg. I expect it will be with Hraesvelgr. If anything, I am guessing that Nidhogg would have been among those trying to tear them apart.

Im almost certain we will find that Nidhogg's hate goes back further, probably to the Allag. There is no way Dravania was spared from Allag conquest when they were so close to the center of Allag power and that would have almost certainly shaped the views of many dragons.

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Originally Posted by Celvantis

Sharing a regnal name is absolutely not a indicator to relation. Pope Innocent III is utterly unrelated to Pope Innocent I.

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I think a few centuries separate the lives of Innocent II and Innocent III let alone Innocent I.

When it comes to sovern name heraldy the number is just indicating how many people carried the name. Especially amungst clergy where marriage is traditionally forbidden.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Regardless of who Shiva is, I don't think her relationship was with Nidhogg. I expect it will be with Hraesvelgr. If anything, I am guessing that Nidhogg would have been among those trying to tear them apart.

Im almost certain we will find that Nidhogg's hate goes back further, probably to the Allag. There is no way Dravania was spared from Allag conquest when they were so close to the center of Allag power and that would have almost certainly shaped the views of many dragons.

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I also believe it was Hraesvelgr that Shiva had a bond with. If you notice in the biographies Hraesvelgr is the one dragon that refuses to take part in the war. Considering that the two of them were likely working towards peace between their peoples it would make sense that her partner would not vie for revenge. Nidhogg, on the other hand, does indeed seem to have a much deeper hatred. Whether this stems entirely from the loss of his eye I'm not sure. He attacked the Coerthans at the founding of Ishgard (according to the Ishgardian story) so there was likely something even further back that provoked him; possibly something to do with Allag as you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I also believe it was Hraesvelgr that Shiva had a bond with. If you notice in the biographies Hraesvelgr is the one dragon that refuses to take part in the war. Considering that the two of them were likely working towards peace between their peoples it would make sense that her partner would not vie for revenge. Nidhogg, on the other hand, does indeed seem to have a much deeper hatred. Whether this stems entirely from the loss of his eye I'm not sure. He attacked the Coerthans at the founding of Ishgard (according to the Ishgardian story) so there was likely something even further back that provoked him; possibly something to do with Allag as you suggest.

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I think the whole stealing his eye thing was just insult to injury my self. If we even have his literal Eye. After all it looks more like a shinny rock to me than a 1000 year old preserved eye ball that was pulled from a dragon's eye socket.

I don't know where this obsession with Allag is coming from. Allag was wiped out ~6000 years ago, five millenniums before Ishgard was founded. Allag screwed with Meracydia, a dragon culture separate from Dravania that comes from a continent across the southern seas. Maybe Dravania is holding a grudge for that and maybe they're taking it out, in part, on Ishgard... but if that were true why aren't they making war on all the Spoken nations, and why does Midgardsormr point out (in the Japanese version of his post-"defeat" scene) that Dravania is making war on Ishgard for Ishgard's sins?

(There is the very real possibility Allagan tech has some role to play, but Allag itself is not directly related to the war. Probably.)

Reason I think Nidhogg was Shiva's lover is because it explains his unfathomable rancor. You're in love with this woman, and then her brother and kinsmen start attacking your people? She sacrifices herself to try and bring peace, only to have her brother betray their father (the rightful ruler) and kill him at a peace summit, then gouges out your eye and takes it as a trophy? That would drive most anyone to some pretty deep hatred.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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The Allagain thing seems to stem from the fact they conquered ALL of Hydaelyn by the end of the Third Astral Era so they undoubtedly did some damage to Dravania. Maybe Nidhogg's mother was The Enigmatic Abalathian and Allage killed her for the Lulz. Then lets say that he did indeed fall in love with Saint Shiva only for her to be killed by her kinsmen and her legacy spat on and desecrated. Then his Eye being stolen on top of that and used to slay HIS Kin would definitely drive any being let alone a Neigh Immortal one like the Celestial Dragons into an undying hatred for all of Non-Dragon kind.

(Personally I'm hoping Nidhogg WAS Shiva's lover and Hraesvelgr is who Iceheart brings us to to let us in on that secret.)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

let alone a Neigh Immortal one like the Celestial Dragons into an undying hatred for all of Non-Dragon kind.

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Now I'm picturing Nidhogg making horse sounds. Thanks. >_>

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Now I'm picturing Nidhogg making horse sounds. Thanks. >_>

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What? Why would that make you think of horse sounds? Or do I even wanna know?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

What? Why would that make you think of horse sounds? Or do I even wanna know?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Then his Eye being stolen on top of that and used to slay HIS Kin would definitely drive any being let alone a Neigh Immortal one like the Celestial Dragons into an undying hatred for all of Non-Dragon kind.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Neigh Immortal

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Neigh

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I think the word you were looking for is "nigh." Neigh is the commonly-accepted onomatopoeia for horse sounds, lol.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I think the word you were looking for is "nigh." Neigh is the commonly-accepted onomatopoeia for horse sounds, lol.

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Damn it, spell check why you no healing! VOTE KICKED!!!

Now I want all dragons to neigh like a horse at least once in the next Hildibrand episode!

My Little Dragon War: Grudges are Magic?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I think a few centuries separate the lives of Innocent II and Innocent III let alone Innocent I.

When it comes to sovern name heraldy the number is just indicating how many people carried the name. Especially amungst clergy where marriage is traditionally forbidden.

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Im aware, I was using the example of regnal name to drive the point that we cant assume they are related merely threw a common regnal name.
A millenia seperates Thordan I from Thordan VII.

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Originally Posted by Celvantis

Im aware, I was using the example of regnal name to drive the point that we cant assume they are related merely threw a common regnal name.
A millenia seperates Thordan I from Thordan VII.

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We also know that the Elezen live to be about 200, so the "Thordan"s have probably been the only Archbishops in the line.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

We also know that the Elezen live to be about 200, so the "Thordan"s have probably been the only Archbishops in the line.

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Thordan would be a notable regnal name to use, clearly so when assending the holy see throne. It has links to the cities founding and heroes and popular monarchs past.
But we have no evidence yet to claim there all related, or only Thordan has been used as a papal name.

I'm aware Elezen's live longer then the other races but out of curiosity have we a source for the extent of how long?

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Originally Posted by Celvantis

Thordan would be a notable regnal name to use, clearly so when assending the holy see throne. It has links to the cities founding and heroes and popular monarchs past.
But we have no evidence yet to claim there all related, or only Thordan has been used as a papal name.

I'm aware Elezen's live longer then the other races but out of curiosity have we a source for the extent of how long?

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During one of the interviews Koji said they live "twice as long" as the other races, and the other races live to around a maximum of a hundred, he said, though they're usually killed off due to disease or monsters before then.