A Different Way to Play

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I've ran into some healing arcanists/summoners as well. There's a right time for helping the healer, and then there's a wrong time. Sometimes crap hits the fan: healer is low on mp, more mobs get pulled and tank starts dropping like a rock. Extra heals will be appreciated in those situations. Anything else is unnecessary and lowers the total dps of the group. It can also make your healer unhappy when someone takes over their job.[/I]

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in those situations a summoner with his physic or a blm with cross classed physic is more than enough

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Originally Posted by ElieDavion

in those situations a summoner with his physic or a blm with cross classed physic is more than enough

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Yes you are correct. The cross class skills that an ACN has access to are either dps cooldowns, defensives for self or defensives for the party. The dps ones do not outdo summoner abilities, the defensives for self are good for soloing but not needed when a tank has all the mobs, and the party defensives are given by healers. Basically playing as ACN over SMN is a loss no matter what way you look at it. All the useful stuff including support heals is available to SMN, on top of better pets and dps.

I think playing as a class would be justified in cases when that would bring something extra to the group. Like archers or marauders doing more damage while sacrificing group utility. ACN simply doesn't bring anything that would be worth the performance loss in their primary role.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

An archer won't get more damage compared to a bard. They lose the DEX from soul crystal and gain nothing that bard doesn't already have as far as dps cooldowns are concerned (B4B primarily).

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Ahh, my bad. I've never actually tried going archer but I heard that some people do. I guess it would be useful for soloing just like going arcanist.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I think playing as a class would be justified in cases when that would bring something extra to the group. Like archers or marauders doing more damage while sacrificing group utility. ACN simply doesn't bring anything that would be worth the performance loss in their primary role.

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An archer won't get more damage compared to a bard. They lose the DEX from soul crystal and gain nothing that bard doesn't already have as far as dps cooldowns are concerned (B4B primarily).

As a full STR MRD, I can hit stupid amounts of damage. Like 2600~ crit damage stupid. So no, you aren't the only one to try classes. I've also dipped into THM before, having DPS only slightly lower than my BLM.

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Originally Posted by Zell1226

As a full STR MRD, I can hit stupid amounts of damage. Like 2600~ crit damage stupid. So no, you aren't the only one to try classes. I've also dipped into THM before, having DPS only slightly lower than my BLM.

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you loose out however on flare and convert including a x-ether that would be 3 flare in a row just as exsample i doubt a thm can keep up with that kind of aoe dmg

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Originally Posted by ElieDavion

you loose out however on flare and convert including a x-ether that would be 3 flare in a row just as exsample i doubt a thm can keep up with that kind of aoe dmg

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A THM loses out on AoE damage from flare and somes urvivability tools that allow them to remain stationary longer. Other than that, they are losing INT from crystal. In the end, THM only does slightly less damage than BLM, but it's still not going to provide any unique benefits and lose out on some versitility even.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

A THM loses out on AoE damage from flare and somes urvivability tools that allow them to remain stationary longer. Other than that, they are losing INT from crystal. In the end, THM only does slightly less damage than BLM, but it's still not going to provide any unique benefits and lose out on some versitility even.

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Come the expansion, it will almost certainly be non-viable; all the new skills are being given through questing, and that questing is 99.9999% likely going to require your crystal. MRD will similarly be useless due to the war dps stance

Also, I would like to know where you are using classes. 4 man dungeons, trials, ex trials, coil? Makes a difference

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Yesterday 07:45 PM

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This is the most frustrating thing about this post.

While its undoubtly an interesting and different way to play. Given that its not mainstream, and that in fact, the crystals and job skills gives bonuses that offset the cross-classing by more than a little margnin, playing classes in DF will not earn you any sort of possitive feedback aside from the amusement of some for the rare view. However as you might already very well know, ill critisism or odd views are what you will run upon to more often than not.

I once got in a party in WoD through DF and found myself with not a BRD, but an ARC. It was odd, to say the least, and they outplayed many of the job-crystal wielders in the whole raid, to the point that they never actually died. Tho I didnt critic their preference, it really made wonder about their choices.

This topic has been discussed in other threads.
THREAD IS NOW CLOSED.

Thing is in this game there is only one way to play for many jobs at the moment, along with one set of gear that is the best. "Different" usually means "substandard", no matter what I chose in dps rotations, there will be one that is better than any other, and in any objective setting, the damage number is the measure by which skill is judged.

In other words, I go as ROG, I get kicked. I mistime an action, that is numbers and time I'm taking away.

DPS do not have the luxury of having different roles like MRD or healers with their DPS options.

The OP is a great example of the MMO equivalent of a Poe. It's impossible to tell if they're trolling or are just oblivious.

With the new Jobs not having a base class, I get the feeling they want to phase out classes altogether.
I think the only thing that holds them back is the Arcanist because it has two Jobs attached to it.
In every other case, they could just convert the class into the Job at 30 after equipping the crystal and then it can't be taken off.
But Arcanist makes that a bit complicated.

To the OP,
I wouldn't really for trivial content about stuff like that, but please don't use the Topaz Carbuncle.
The Emerald does more damage and shouldn't die because it's ranged.
Even though any decent tank won't lose enmity to it, it's an insult to that tank that you don't trust them.
You do less dps already being an Arcanist. The least you could do is use the dps pet.
Also, for the start of pulls even a topaz carbuncle can turn an enemy making melee miss a positional or the raid getting a potential cleave.

Using a tanking pet is simply bad practice and etiquette.
You can be ACN and gimp your dps all you want, and I wouldn't say anything (though I might ask why).
If I see someone use a tanking pet, I would want them dismissed from the instance if they didn't change it.

My friends and I went into WOD as ACN once. It was a lot of fun, and we didn't cause any wipes (probably because tbh we were three of the only players actually awake....) And, yes, I also got commendations for my carby.

And I'm leveling my LNC, not DRG, because I don't care about marauder at all.

But would I ever use either in serious content...? No. No I wouldn't. I mean, if you can find an endgame group to take you as an ACN, then by all means go for it (but bring Emerald instead of Topaz...please...) If your tank is so bad that they need Topaz to babysit, you need to talk to them. Desperately. Same for your healer. I mean, yes, I have kept many a party alive with my BLM and Physick, but.... it's not ideal, and it was only after serious shit hit the fan. Not something I want to do frequently. If you like to support so much but still attack, I suggest Scholar. Go for it, Eos is very nice and she doesn't bite (I'm not sure about Selene, she might bite).

If you don't care about endgame, then you still should at least be thinking of your fellow party members. It may be viable now to be jobless, but remember... once you step into coil you may get people actually mad at you.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

Not trying to be rude, but I cant see ANY reason to someone go a specific class over your job.

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While classes are likely being phased out in 3.0, there are instances where classes currently outshine their job counterparts.
The most notable being marauder's ability to spike damage, particularly AoE damage. I would argue it has the highest AoE potential of anything in the game.
To get a sense of what I'm talking about, go gather a bunch of mobs, get maim up, pop berserk, internal release, b4b, raging strikes, and spam overpower until 500tp, pop invigorate and keep going. Look at your numbers, compare to dps jobs, then stop posting on the OF.

Utility as a MRD:
-Goad
-Perfect dodge (revelations, death sentence, flatten)

It has it's weaknesses but, if you can make MRD work in raid, and play to it's potential, it can be lethal and fun even.

I've played mrd in all the raid content the game has.

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Originally Posted by BloodLines

While classes are likely being phased out in 3.0, there are instances where classes currently outshine their job counterparts.
most notable being marauder's ability to spike damage, particularly AoE damage. I would argue it has the highest AoE potential of anything in the game.
To get a sense of what I'm talking about, go gather a bunch of mobs, get maim up, pop berserk, internal release, b4b, raging strikes, and spam overpower until 500tp, pop invigorate and keep going. Look at your numbers, compare to dps jobs, then stop posting on the OF.

Utility as a MRD:
-Goad
-Perfect dodge (revelations, death sentence, flatten)

It has it's weaknesses but, if you can make MRD work in raid, and play to it's potential, it can be lethal and fun even.

I've played mrd in all the raid content the game has.

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Do you reeeeeally think perfect dodge > Defiance and Berserker? Hmm... You have a problem.

Plus, you can't beat DRG, WHM and BLM aoe. Srry.
But don't be sad. You can fight against MNK and PLD for the last place, aoe wise.

Raging strike: 3min cd.
Perf. Dodge: 2 min cd.

Wow, so pro.

It works in junk content that people over gear by 40 ilvls. Congrats. Dungeons and wod are tuned to be really challenging at i90. People are 130 now. The fact that you can 'make it work' is not a pat on the back. It's using the groups high level gear as a crutch to pick up your slack choosing to play in a very inefficient way.

That is why it's not done during progression. During progression on new content, there is no room for someone underperforming because there is not an ilvl buffer to carry you.

When the entire group is 30 to 40 levels above the content it's doable no matter how poorly you perform. Healers have sold dungeons. I've seen vids of all war parties downing trash dungeons and hm primals. Know why there's no solo t13 pre echo or 8 war pre echo t13? Cuz they are bad setups that rely on over gearing to be successful.

Your free to play as you want, but everyone else is just as free to not want to play with you. If you want to play that way for fun have at it. If you think it is in anyway an objectively better way to play, you are misinformed at best, or delusional at worst.

People put up with it because they know they can clear lulz Dungeon anyway and just want their daily over with, even if they have to carry someone. Enjoy playing in newby land with 40 ilvls of overgear and patting yourself on the back for doing such a good job on faceroll content.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

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Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes on a marauder leads to a lot of burst dps potential. The soul crystal only accounts for 10 STR (compared to 30 STR/DEX for the dps classes) and you're exclusively losing only tanking abilties.

Strictly speaking for dpsing/off tank dpsing, marauder triumphs warrior in burst dps. Everywhere else though like actual tanking? lolno.

That being said though, marauder tanking is still feasible depending on some circumstances; I turn off defiance when I'm tanking dungeon bosses, though this is after I've done my initial unchained pull. I don't think I'd have trouble as a marauder unless the dps is going buck wild.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes on a marauder leads to a lot of burst dps potential. The soul crystal only accounts for 10 STR (compared to 30 STR/DEX for the dps classes) and you're exclusively losing only tanking abilties.

Strictly speaking for dpsing/off tank dpsing, marauder triumphs warrior in burst dps. Everywhere else though like actual tanking? lolno.

That being said though, marauder tanking is still feasible depending on some circumstances; I turn off defiance when I'm tanking dungeon bosses, though this is after I've done my initial unchained pull. I don't think I'd have trouble as a marauder unless the dps is going buck wild.

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If you turning off your defiance or going MRD while tanking, you are giving more trouble to your healer. Healer needs to stop dps to keep TWO eyes into you so u can RS every 3 minutes. Even worse if your healer is a scholar. Sch dps is gold. More than a 3 min cd buff.

I'm not saying War dps > Mrd dps. I'm just saying, for raid/group content, its not wise.
Btw, if your Mrd is just going for dps or aoe, I will gladly trade him for a DRG.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

Do you reeeeeally think perfect dodge > Defiance and Berserker? Hmm... You have a problem.

Plus, you can't beat DRG, WHM and BLM aoe. Srry.
But don't be sad. You can fight against MNK and PLD for the last place, aoe wise.

Wow, so pro.

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It's not that it is better for straight tanking, that is obviously not the case.
It's just a utility you can use in raid.
When I was doing prenerf t12 on mrd, I was able to perfect dodge the revelation which is nice since they are so spread out, the timer lines up perfectly.
It makes the defensive hindrance a bit easier to deal with and you can feel better about making that sacrifice for the dps gain.

As for the aoe, you've obviously never played the class, so I'm not sure why you're saying you have any idea where it would place.
I've seen these numbers, not thoroughly tested, but from what I've seen, it's gotta be at the top-end aoe game
So unless you're at least going to go try it out, pls move on~

Just cuz you can't, does't mean others can't.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

If you turning off your defiance or going MRD while tanking, you are giving more trouble to your healer. Healer needs to stop dps to keep TWO eyes into you so u can RS every 3 minutes. Even worse if your healer is a scholar. Sch dps is gold. More than a 3 min cd buff.

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I'm way overgeared even with the level sync for dungeons that a regen or fairy heal keeps me topped off anyway, alongside my selfheals and cooldowns. Heck, this is even the case for the low level dungeons. There honestly isn't alot of damage going out on the tank except for a few bosses. It's mostly party damage or avoidable damage.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It bears mentioning again that popping out Topaz Carbuncle (or Titan) in group content is almost always a bad idea; when it's discovered to be useful, SE hotfixes it. Fighting tanks for aggro is no bueno, and so is needlessly nerfing your personal DPS when you are in a DPS role.

Points for creativity, but no, this really doesn't work well.

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In the case of topaz, This ^
I've seen ACNs do it even in low level dungeons and it was just terrible on the tank (mainly low level tanks) and making a mess for the close range DPS. It is literally the same as when tanks fight each other for MT position and spin bosses. I wanted to throttle the ACNs that do that - it just lead to high insecurity, even in low level content. It was wonders when a tank died, AFKed or left the dungeon (or open-world content like FATES and such) - but the opposite when there was already a player tank doing their job.

In terms of not having soul crystal on... that was me, back when I was a fresh 30-something PUG (as I leveled MNK first, before I mained WHM, so I was still fairly new to the game, also). I didn't even realize what it did - all I saw was it took away some of my cross skills and thought, "what? Noes... whysss? D:" and took it back off. New player, game had only opened out of beta and I wasn't used to an MMO like this. DF'ed into a dungeon by myself (and I was still shy of DFing with strangers back then... but not anymore), got harrassed by the players for being Pugilist and I didn't understand what was wrong/bad... Ever since then, if I'm on an Alt or a new job, I won't go into a 30ish dungeon or Hest without doing the job quest - even if I was going through MSQs and over leveled and didn't pick up the job quest, or in the middle of the job quest, etc.

As for seeing someone in high level content without a job crystal.... I've seen a Gladiator in T1 and Ultima HM. While I commend the fact that they wanted a challenge or - like I had with PUG/MNK, wanted to keep their cross skills - or just wanted to be different and think outside the box - it just did not work. They couldn't hold ADDs hate, couldn't tank swap (the MT had to die to hand off to the GLad in Ultima) and was pretty much couldn't keep anything from steamrolling the party. I wanted to give the guy benefit of the doubt - maybe they didn't understand either, or wanted a challenge (they remained silent both times), but it was just not meant to be in higher level content. All the right gear, understood what we told them to do, but it was a detriment without some of the job skills (....namely Shield Oath).

Certain classes - maybe. But other classes....

I'd be all for it doing it with friends, but I wouldn't suggest DFing it unless you have a thick skin and super pro at it...

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Originally Posted by BloodLines

I've seen these numbers, not thoroughly tested, but from what I've seen, it's gotta be at the top-end aoe game

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Oh, I see! Ok then...
I will not exactly "move on", but I will refrain to reply to you since its impossible to argue against "what you have seen".


Not tested... Right! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BloodLines

The most notable being marauder's ability to spike damage, particularly AoE damage. I would argue it has the highest AoE potential of anything in the game.

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I'd like to see numbers on that. I don't think it would even come close to BLM, WHM, or BRD AOE though.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

If you turning off your defiance or going MRD while tanking, you are giving more trouble to your healer. Healer needs to stop dps to keep TWO eyes into you so u can RS every 3 minutes. Even worse if your healer is a scholar. Sch dps is gold. More than a 3 min cd buff.

I'm not saying War dps > Mrd dps. I'm just saying, for raid/group content, its not wise.
Btw, if your Mrd is just going for dps or aoe, I will gladly trade him for a DRG.

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Have fun trying to bring a fifth DPS if you need to use DF or doing ST.

Sure you're at the mercy of other tanks and hoping they won't be doing the asme thing as well, but this isnt the only time where party comps can screw you over (like double SCH on T13...)

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Originally Posted by DSaint

Oh, I see! Ok then...
I will not exactly "move on", but I will refrain to reply to you since its impossible to argue against "what you have seen".


Not tested... Right! :rolleyes:

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What arguement? You haven't supplied one yet.


I said not thoroughly tested.
I can say that in all of my fcob parses from week one to current, mrd brings more dps than warrior.

It's tested enough for me to pick it over war for a dps tank.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'd like to see numbers on that. I don't think it would even come close to BLM, WHM, or BRD AOE though.

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Go try it.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'd like to see numbers on that. I don't think it would even come close to BLM, WHM, or BRD AOE though.

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I'd put it higher than bard, but only in that spam of burst when cooldowns are considered. Berserk is among one of the strongest dps cooldowns out there, alongside maim, raging strikes and blood for blood. It's not outrageous to say that marauder AoE can get up there, but it's really stagmented, not to the same extent as monk's perfect balance though.

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Originally Posted by BloodLines

Go try it.

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You're the one making the argument. Why should I be the one to provide the proof? o.o

If you're too lazy to bring actual numerical data, why even say anything in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You're the one making the argument. Why should I be the one to provide the proof? o.o

If you're too lazy to bring actual numerical data, why even say anything in the first place?

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It's not an argument, it's a statement based on how I play the game.
Your denial is an argument with said statement.
You're much lazier if you can't log on and play the videogame to find out?

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Originally Posted by DSaint

If you turning off your defiance or going MRD while tanking, you are giving more trouble to your healer. Healer needs to stop dps to keep TWO eyes into you so u can RS every 3 minutes. Even worse if your healer is a scholar. Sch dps is gold. More than a 3 min cd buff.

I'm not saying War dps > Mrd dps. I'm just saying, for raid/group content, its not wise.
Btw, if your Mrd is just going for dps or aoe, I will gladly trade him for a DRG.

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While I generally do not agree with not using your job crystal in any circumstances, people HAVE used Marauders to great success in T8, back in the progression days. It's not really that unfeasible. In fact, think back to when some changes were made to PvP because Marauders were too strong in Frontlines.

If anything, I think it is the only class that could have been viable without its job crystal.