More complex rotations with Heavensward

Paladin has the simplest, most obvious easiest-to-understand rotation right now, and there's STILL people that get it wrong (like spamming RoH only)

Funny, I remember people complaining that boss fights have too much mechanics, the fights being too much about the fight itself, not the player's ability yadda yadda.

Now they're adding more mechanics onto the players and now it's a problem? Maybe some people just don't want to have any mechanics at all. Or even do anything.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Funny, I remember people complaining that boss fights have too much mechanics, the fights being too much about the fight itself, not the player's ability yadda yadda.

Now they're adding more mechanics onto the players and now it's a problem? Maybe some people just don't want to have any mechanics at all. Or even do anything.

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nothing is right according to forums, everything can be cried about.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

There's a lot of stance switching, especially for the tanks. Doesn't affect me though since I already do that but for new players it might be a little much. Also I love the new dps war stance "Deliverance" and "Raw Intuition" hopefully can be mitigated with Awareness to stop the crit from the sides.

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Stance-switching is par for the course for us PLDs, so on that end things are not changing much. Depending on what the DoT combo is like, I might end up ignoring it in favor of Halone (which in effect means my rotation wouldn't change unless I'm off-tanking). We'll see how this goes, but my semi-arthritic hands are not looking forward to it. >.>

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Funny, I remember people complaining that boss fights have too much mechanics, the fights being too much about the fight itself, not the player's ability yadda yadda.

Now they're adding more mechanics onto the players and now it's a problem? Maybe some people just don't want to have any mechanics at all. Or even do anything.

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They are adding moves, when we have an nearly full cross bar.

Some of these mechanics are hinderences, I didn't ask for hinderences.

And the thing they did add, are these really actions to save the party or recover? Take lowering enmity. Usually the tank has a commanding lead, if he doesn't and loses control of the mob, he either gets it back in a few seconds, or the new target dies really quick(as in, before a controller using play can address the issue with their ability). Oh there's a bar? Convenient, now where's one for goad, the action we DO have?

SE are making this game easy for the really casual players anyways, and they don't need to be able to master the rotations to get through them... Like it or not.

The rotations might be more complex to get most out of your job, but I don't think it will make too much difference in easier content. If they want to do harder content later on, then they just have to git gud.

Take PLD for example... I doubt you would wipe your group in a dungeon or "new CT" if you pretty much only keep doing what a PLD does right now. You won't get the most out of them, and you will be far behind on DPS if you're OT... but I think you'll get through it.

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Originally Posted by zandervont

nothing is right according to forums, everything can WILL be cried about.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Yea with my xbox controller that I use for my pc there is only so many buttons you can set. They must want us to constantly change pages or something which is kind of annoying to do.

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I use xbox controller as well. I have LT and RT combinations setup as well so I have access to 32 actions without manually switching pages. The only time I currently switch pages is for LB or rarely used actions.

I casually played all jobs and learned their rotations. My preference is the less complex classes because I can pay more attention to the fight rather than my position, procs, and rotation. My favorite jobs are PLD and BRD, but looks like it will be only BRD now with expansion unless one of new jobs don't have a complex rotation.

i for one welcome the complexity... keeping me more aware of whats going on.

I think the complexity of the new rotations, other than balance some, will give space to excellence so players can do better and already good players can be more satisfied but it wouldn't necessarily hurt the others as long as doing a full perfect rotation isn't a must like it is already.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

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Originally Posted by zandervont

nothing is right according to forums, everything CAN AND WILL be cried about.

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Fixed that for you.

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As I see it, both are valid :/

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Originally Posted by Greven

I think the complexity of the new rotations, other than balance some, will give space to excellence so players can do better and already good players can be more satisfied but it wouldn't necessarily hurt the others as long as doing a full perfect rotation isn't a must like it is already.

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How is ADDing to the complexity of a perfect rotation going to diminish the need for a perfect rotation?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

nip

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Not all the rotations are "perfect" and I didn't meant that it will be easier, just not necessarily much harder, but it depends on the job honestly though to make few examples:

DRG: the BotD buff will add a huge DPS but not doing it doesn't break your old rotation, if you were a mediocre player this additions will not make you even worse per se, quite the opposite as it give you an situational option to do more.

MNK: the rotation wasn't "perfect", even though I think perfection isn't the right word as it is really subjective, because during some fight you're forced to loose your GL stacks. They added a way to make up for this loss with the GL consuming skill and the Chakra stacks so even if you can't keep up with all the positionals now you don't even have to lose your stack for nothing.

PLD: this is easy.. It was kind of plain, they added combos to do something more. You can still spam RoH combo but other easy options will be there waiting for you to try them out and pherhaps they'll make your DPS higher.

There are many players which are not that good or don't care bout making a perfect rotation but they can do nearly everything as well, if the new contents will not ask you to do the "perfect best" then the more complex rotation will not kill the already not so good players.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

How is ADDing to the complexity of a perfect rotation going to diminish the need for a perfect rotation?

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There isn't a need for a perfect rotation now. Most people don't have an absolutely perfect rotation and a lot don't even strive for that, yet content still gets cleared.

I guess I don't understand the dissenters here. Because some people are not interested in playing the game better, everyone should have to play their jobs in the exact same manner until the end of time? We shouldn't get any new attacks with a level cap increase because it might inconvenience people who don't care about performing their job well? Or are you advocating for replacing our current combos with something new? Cause that's just an aesthetics change and would STILL lead back to playing the class the exact same way. I guess I just don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Dement

There isn't a need for a perfect rotation now. Most people don't have an absolutely perfect rotation and a lot don't even strive for that, yet content still gets cleared.

I guess I don't understand the dissenters here. Because some people are not interested in playing the game better, everyone should have to play their jobs in the exact same manner until the end of time? We shouldn't get any new attacks with a level cap increase because it might inconvenience people who don't care about performing their job well? Or are you advocating for replacing our current combos with something new? Cause that's just an aesthetics change and would STILL lead back to playing the class the exact same way. I guess I just don't understand.

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It's getting cleared with lots of echo. And dungeons just flat out being outgeared to death. And level 90 bosses getting nerfed. Not a great scenario IMO

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Originally Posted by Dement

I guess I don't understand the dissenters here. Because some people are not interested in playing the game better, everyone should have to play their jobs in the exact same manner until the end of time? We shouldn't get any new attacks with a level cap increase because it might inconvenience people who don't care about performing their job well? Or are you advocating for replacing our current combos with something new? Cause that's just an aesthetics change and would STILL lead back to playing the class the exact same way. I guess I just don't understand.

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Excuse me, I didn't get the fancy new actions that ups my DPS. My "improvements" came in the form of having to dance around the mob like every other melee and a enmity utility of questionable use. Not really anything to look forward to, except to "play their jobs in the exact same manner ".

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

It's getting cleared with lots of echo. And dungeons just flat out being outgeared to death. And level 90 bosses getting nerfed. Not a great scenario IMO

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So the people who don't really care about having an optimal or even a good rotation should be able to clear the stuff the week it comes out cause lolcombos? It doesn't matter that it's getting cleared with overgear and echo... it's getting cleared. The people who have optimal rotations and do strive to be better are the ones who are clearing pre-echo and nerfs. Why should they not get anything that changes or alters their job in any way shape or form so that we can cater to the lowest denominator?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Excuse me, I didn't get the fancy new actions that ups my DPS. My "improvements" came in the form of having to dance around the mob like every other melee and a enmity utility of questionable use. Not really anything to look forward to.

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Excuse me, you also can extend Huton. Having to hit a few minor positionals (we don't even know what the buffs are for hitting said positionals yet) like every other melee class sounds absolutely dreadful. Also Ninja is the newest of the jobs, it was likely designed with at least a foundation of Heavensward content already in mind. The other jobs have had the exact same rotations since September 2013. Let's also not forget that it's likely that every new ability wasn't showcased. Furthermore, you will be able to see people's TP bars now which should play well to your previous comment about Goad.

I fail to see how an enmity modifier is "of questionable use" when we don't know what it does or how it works yet.

More complex rotations won't mean much in the long term. Good players will get used to them and playing their main jobs will be second nature.

Moving forward for future expansions after HW though, I hope they start revising existing skills, rather than tacking on new ones. Skill bloat in general is bad, and I can see it being a genuinely dire problem for controller players.

I believe yoshi mentioned on an earlier LL that you cannot really clear Alexander without the use of new skills (or something similar) so people gotta learn if they wanna do anything harder than normal dungeons. But who knows.

I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt and be sold on this on speculation. That was what the video was supposed to do.

I do agree with you the jobs do need a change when level caps are raised. The part I'm not sure If i agree with yet is if the new changes should be stacked on top of the old stuff.

I'll hold my judgement until I actually play the game though. Doesn't seem like summoner is getting hit too hard with extra stuff and it's fairly simple class to play already so I think smn will be fine. Some of the others like black mage, scholar, and monk might be a little tougher though.

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Originally Posted by zandervont

I believe yoshi mentioned on an earlier LL that you cannot really clear Alexander without the use of new skills (or something similar) so people gotta learn if they wanna do anything harder than normal dungeons. But who knows.

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Not until echo/nerfs at least XD

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt and be sold on this on speculation. That was what the video was supposed to do.

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"Heavensward Preview - Part 1
Videos and actual gameplay will be utilized to showcase battle in both new fields and dungeons!
Catch a glimpse of how the brand-new jobs will function in battle."

It was never stated that it was supposed to be an all encompassing video geared towards complete and detailed rundowns of all new abilities, job traits, and changes made to existing jobs.

I love that the rotations will be more complex. But i agree with you what's duty finder gonna be like when there are black mages out there who still dont know how to play their job

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Originally Posted by Dement

snip.

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I was not satisfied with what they offered as complexity for my main job, OK? I don't see how speculation is going to help when they said they have changed nin the least.

And going by your exact words, it would have been DRK AST and MCN only showcased.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I love that the rotations will be more complex. But i agree with you what's duty finder gonna be like when there are black mages out there who still dont know how to play their job

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What's the duty finder like now when you there are black mages out there that don't know how to play their job? Things get cleared but slower, they get carried by the others who are performing better, or someone rage quits. I don't think it's going to change.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

They are adding moves, when we have an nearly full cross bar.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I was not satisfied with what they offered as complexity for my main job, OK?

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Then I've got good news for your earlier comment. Your main is not getting much more complex save for having to hit a few positionals. Once again, I reiterate that NIN was added very recently compared to the other jobs, they had already learned from earlier balancing mistakes and probably had at least an idea of what they needed to do with it for Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

And going by your exact words, it would have been DRK AST and MCN only showcased.

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Not really and not "my" words. That's off of the news section for when the Live Letter was announced. "Videos and actual gameplay will be utilized to showcase battle in both new fields and dungeons!" Seems like that extends to far more than DRK, AST, and MCN to me.

Basically after using Bliz IV or Fire IV, you have use Bliz III, or Fire III if you want a stack of either afterwards..

My point of the 1sr comment was that having no empty slots on the crossbar meant that whatever new actions were to be brought in will make accessing others that much harder.

As for NIN, I'm not convinced they have "learned from their mistakes" enough not to commit new ones. So we can just agree to disagree.

I can't say I'm thrilled about them adding positionals to NIN. I also play MNK so I can handle them just fine, but I don't feel they should be adding something like positionals until they fix the glaring problems of mudra lag. It's just that they're intentionally adding complexity to the job after not fixing their unintentional and inconsistent complexity of mudra actions. I wouldn't have problems with the positionals being added if the mudra behaved how they're supposed to.

I wish ninjas got the healing jutsu your friends use during ninja quest line.

Complexity =/= fun.

I just wish my hands wouldn't need to dance break on the keyboard for me to do decent dps.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I can't say I'm thrilled about them adding positionals to NIN. I also play MNK so I can handle them just fine, but I don't feel they should be adding something like positionals until they fix the glaring problems of mudra lag. It's just that they're intentionally adding complexity to the job after not fixing their unintentional and inconsistent complexity of mudra actions. I wouldn't have problems with the positionals being added if the mudra behaved how they're supposed to.

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What lag? I have never noticed any lag on ninja spells.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

What lag? I have never noticed any lag on ninja spells.

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Basically because mudras have such a short cooldown in between them, any significant latency between you and the server is going to make it take approximately a bazillion years to cast a ninjutsu. Or at least it'll seem like that.

In all seriousness, even normal latency (100-150ms range we're talking here) can stretch a 1.5 sec huton cast out to 2 or even 2.5 sec. That doesn't seem like a lot until you realize it's happening every 20 seconds. That adds up quickly to a lot of lost dps.

SE COULD fix the issue by changing the way ninjutsu is handled. If we weren't having to send each mudra to the server and back again, the problem would go away. The client could just handle the whole thing and send the completed or failed ninjutsu when you're done. One round trip instead of 4.