Shadow Flare needs a new effect.

i'll probably be criticized heavily for this, but you all need to remember, summoner as a class is not in a terribly bad place right now dps wise, its just the current gear set is extremely poor for the class, but with heavensward bringing a drastic change to skill/spell speed stats, this may no longer be the case (especially with the spell speed trait summoners have that is so easily forgotten about)

so any buffs would need to be very small if at all.

It's not just DPS lacking due to itemization. Look at the records, summoner is way behind black mage and even bard.

You can make the DPS equal on a single target but a black mage will still have much better aoe, the black mage can burst key adds, and the black mage has his teleport and mana wall to boot.

It's not just DPS it's utility and personal defenses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lamia-Blackheart

i would LOVE vulnerability up on SF!!!

---

I was only using vulnerability as an example. There are alot of other debuffs in the game like:

Silence
Blind
Poison
Slow
Heavy
Determination Down
HP Penalty
Strength Down

I had a nice long post typed out, but cursed character limit, (2510 characters on a 1000 character limit, lol), so here's the abridged version....

I don't look at the Arcanist family as a pure DPS class, it's meant more in a support vein, with dealing damage being a secondary purpose. Comparing the damage of a Summoner to a Black Mage is like comparing the healing abilities of a Paladin to a White Mage. By not having our support effects take place on bosses, we're essentially having our abilities cut in half. Don't get me wrong, I love my class, especially when I'm taking on FATE bosses or large groups solo, but when I'm in a dungeon or raid and can't use what I consider the primary effect of half my abilities I do feel a little jipped. Against most bosses, we either lose the status effect of our abilities or they have little to no effect, (blind and heavy are particularly useless since after the tank grabs them they're locked down and their attacks always hit regardless).....

Sorry to double post, but character limit.....

Despite what I said, I'm perfectly fine with Shadow Flare's ability being a slow effect. The slow effect is incredibly useful for cutting down on damage when it works. I went into the Wanderer's Palace as a Scholar earlier with a few friends and being able to crowd slow the adds made healing our tank a lot easier.....

I think it should apply a debuff that kills all BLMs.

Also you can just go back in and edit your post to put in more than 1000 characters. Welcome to SE's authoritarian dictatorship full of abitrary rules designed to stifle actual...foruming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I think it should apply a debuff that kills all BLMs.

Also you can just go back in and edit your post to put in more than 1000 characters. Welcome to SE's authoritarian dictatorship full of abitrary rules designed to stifle actual...foruming.

---

Yea, I actually learned that from another thread I read on right after I finished posting in here, lol.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Sorry to double post, but character limit.....

Despite what I said, I'm perfectly fine with Shadow Flare's ability being a slow effect. The slow effect is incredibly useful for cutting down on damage when it works. I went into the Wanderer's Palace as a Scholar earlier with a few friends and being able to crowd slow the adds made healing our tank a lot easier.....

---

The way you bypass character limit is you type your whole thing, then select all but a single sentence of your text and "Cut". Post that single sentence. Then edit your post and paste the rest of the text after that sentence.

The character limit is absurdly dumb, but there's a workaround for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Maybe it's just me, because I play both SMN and BLM, so I see Smn underwhelming. SMN abilities like Miasma 2 and Shadowflare has such a low potency that the only way to make them good is if you have them up all the time. Hell I barely see other Smns use miasma 2 when I'm running dungeons.

---

Most Summoners have no clue how to properly AOE. The day you see a SMN Dots > Bane + Aerial Slash > Miasma II > Blizzard 2 spam in a dungeon, that's the moment you see one of the best Summoners around. Hell, add Rouse/Spur, Aerial Blast, and Fester between GCD abilities, and watch mobs melt. BLM may be king, but most are ignorant with SMN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

It's not just DPS lacking due to itemization. Look at the records, summoner is way behind black mage and even bard.

You can make the DPS equal on a single target but a black mage will still have much better aoe, the black mage can burst key adds, and the black mage has his teleport and mana wall to boot.

It's not just DPS it's utility and personal defenses.

---

Umm, no. Bard is still the lowest DPS, and BLM beats SMN if both players are of equal skill. I rarely get beaten by other BLM since getting my Zeta recently and testing my own BiS gear set. To see a Summoner at it's peak is shocking. Just the other night I was at 550+ DPS on T13, equal to the MONK when that should never happen outside AOE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

Most Summoners have no clue how to properly AOE. The day you see a SMN Dots > Bane + Aerial Slash > Miasma II > Blizzard 2 spam in a dungeon, that's the moment you see one of the best Summoners around. Hell, add Rouse/Spur, Aerial Blast, and Fester between GCD abilities, and watch mobs melt. BLM may be king, but most are ignorant with SMN.

---

summoner AOE is a little more complicated than that, first off, you wont use fester because you will need your aetherflow stacks for bane, maybe if all the mobs are about to die then sure, but most of the time you'll want to keep them.
Also, blizz II spam is only good against 4 or less enemies, any more and you'll need to be applying dots to a new group to continue to bane.
also, your priority after bane should be to shadowflare, not miasma II

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

summoner AOE is a little more complicated than that, first off, you wont use fester because you will need your aetherflow stacks for bane, maybe if all the mobs are about to die then sure, but most of the time you'll want to keep them.
Also, blizz II spam is only good against 4 or less enemies, any more and you'll need to be applying dots to a new group to continue to bane.
also, your priority after bane should be to shadowflare, not miasma II

---

Okay perhaps I should elaborate:

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II + Contagion> Swiftcast > Bane + Aerial Slash > Shadowflare > Rouse > Blizzard II > Spur > Blizzard II > Enkindle > Blizzard II > Fester (mob with most HP) > Blizzard II Spam.

That is the full AOE rotation. To elaborate even further. Blizzard II on 3+ mobs, not 4 or less because the time you need to refresh dots, mobs are either dead or almost dead, so you finish them off with Ruin II. This doesn't come into account other DPS doing their thing. No Raging Strikes or Swiftcast? Then Shadowflare first. No contagion? Watch timers as you Blizzard II spam. Don't have enough Aetherflow stacks? Then don't Fester and save for Bane. Have enough stacks? Is Aetherflow off cool down? Then you can afford Fester. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about. There are a million things a Summoner has to think about when he/she does things whether it's AOE or single target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

Okay perhaps I should elaborate:

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Swiftcast > Miasma II + Contagion> Bane + Aerial Slash > Shadowflare > Rouse > Blizzard II > Spur > Blizzard II > Enkindle > Blizzard II > Fester (mob with most HP) > Blizzard II Spam.

---

theres a few problems with all that but i dont really feel like correcting you with a full reasoning behind each problem, so intead i'll just point out the one problem that stands out so much i had to reply.
Miasma II is instant cast, do NOT swiftcast it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

theres a few problems with all that but i dont really feel like correcting you with a full reasoning behind each problem, so intead i'll just point out the one problem that stands out so much i had to reply.
Miasma II is instant cast, do NOT swiftcast it.

---

At first I said.....what? Then realized I had a typo in it's placement. Other than that, please, correct me with the "problems".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

At first I said.....what? Then realized I had a typo in it's placement. Other than that, please, correct me with the "problems".

---

rouse/spur can and should be on the same oGCD, it will take some practice to get consistent at it but they can be chained together almost instantly if done right.

with 5+ mobs you will need to refresh dots on the first pack almost immediate after you finished bane on the second pack, hence why i said you should only blizz spam on 4 or less mobs, you might be able to fit in a 1 or 2 here and there, but certainly not spam. although as you said it really does matter how how much hp they have, but first thing that comes to mind for me is when turn 4 was actually progression content, i suppose turn 13 (before echo) is similar during adds phase in some regard.

the cooldown use would be on a per case basis, so i wont go into it to much, but most of the time its better to save your raging strikes in particular for something else, yes it might inflate your dps more using it there, but it doesnt change the fact that the increased dps normally doesn't have as much of an effect as what it would hitting stricktly the boss for example.

aerial slash you have considered a GCD move by the looks of it to, which of course its not, but more importantly this should come after the rouse + spur.

dont finish off a mob with ruin II simply to finish it off in an aoe situation, continue to aoe, it will be caught in the aoe and killed accordingly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

rouse/spur can and should be on the same oGCD, it will take some practice to get consistent at it but they can be chained together almost instantly if done right.

with 5+ mobs you will need to refresh dots on the first pack almost immediate after you finished bane on the second pack, hence why i said you should only blizz spam on 4 or less mobs, you might be able to fit in a 1 or 2 here and there, but certainly not spam. although as you said it really does matter how how much hp they have, but first thing that comes to mind for me is when turn 4 was actually progression content, I suppose turn 13 (before echo) is similar during adds phase in some regard.

the cooldown use would be on a per case basis, so i wont go into it to much, but most of the time its better to save your raging strikes in particular for something else, yes it might inflate your dps more using it there, but it doesnt change the fact that the increased dps normally doesn't have as much of an effect as what it woufasterting stricktly the boss for example.

aerial slash you have considered a GCD move by the looks of it to, which of course its not, but more importantly this should come after the rouse + spur.

dont finish off a mob with ruin II simply to finish it off in an aoe situation, continue to aoe, it will be caught in the aoe and killed accordingly.

---

Umm, no. Aerial Slash is obviously not a GCD. Same with every single pet action. Bane + Aerial slash means, Aerial Slash should be macro'd on to Bane. This means immediately after you Bane, Garuda will use Aerial Slash for an enhanced AOE attack. Also why would I want to use Spur/Rouse together? If I can fit a Blizzard II (or Ruin II) in between for added DPS? The only reason I would do that is if I messed up my rotation somewhere and want to get the second Fester out before the Raging Strikes timer is done on single target. Or to save mp by using less Ruin II over the course of a long fight. Also, yes, spam Blizzard II. That is why I previously mentioned various scenarios where things are done differently. If you have 5+ mobs, look for the add that is closer to the group that doesn't have dots because of the 3 mob Bane limit, and Bane one that does nearest to it. You do know that Bane has a chance to refresh dot timers on new mobs...right? Meaning less dot refresh more Blizzard II spam? Save Raging Strikes? Why would I save Raging Strikes in a dungeon? The more damage you deal the faster a dungeon is done. By the time you reach the last boss, Raging Strikes will be up. In raid content, then yes save Raging Strikes. For example if I have Raging Strikes during DB in T13, I wait until Storm spawns until I use it. As for Ruin II, yes, use it if a mob has what...3% HP left? Unless you use Ruin I and it dies midcast interrupting you making Ruin I pointless. Finally elaborate on Turn 4? I don't know why you would mention it without giving insight as to why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

snip

---

Turn 4 used to take close to a minute per phase when it was all no echo and all in i70 gear, when refreshing dots was a necessity.

as for the rest of it, i dont really have the patience to explain every minor detail and go into how each part is a dps/efficiency gain because clearly your not the theorycrafter type.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

Umm, no. Bard is still the lowest DPS, and BLM beats SMN if both players are of equal skill. I rarely get beaten by other BLM since getting my Zeta recently and testing my own BiS gear set. To see a Summoner at it's peak is shocking. Just the other night I was at 550+ DPS on T13, equal to the MONK when that should never happen outside AOE.

---

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

Look at Summoner. Look at Bard. You're wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

Look at Summoner. Look at Bard. You're wrong.

---

normally i would say DnT leaderboards are a good resource, but this is one of the few times its probably more misleading than accurate, DnT players (at least the good ones) dont normally mess around with sub par classes, and it was known fairly early on in 2.4 that summoner wasnt going to be very good due to itemization.

Protip: NEVER use Enkindle on a fight with adds on the boss, this includes your opener.

Even worst case scenario where you have both rouse and spur down, enkindle on just 3 targets is worth 10 minutes of enkindle on single target, with spur/rouse. So yea. Don't...don't use enkindle if there is any chance you can hit multiple enemies. Its literally worth waiting the entire fight to do so.

Will you guys chill out, and stop the hating on each other, please discuss as its great but stop being such asses to each other.

In regards to SMN AOE :
Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II + Contagion> Swiftcast > Bane + Aerial Slash > Shadowflare > Rouse > Blizzard II > Spur > Blizzard II > Enkindle > Blizzard II > Fester (mob with most HP) > Blizzard II Spam.

You can get spur + rouse off in the same GCD, stutter step to stop the animation works for me on console, I manage to get both spur and rouse up together.

I agree with panda in regards to Enkindle, but at the end of the day if the grp doesn't push the phase due missing that little dps you slightly boosting your numbers isnt worth it. E.g T13 where pushing the phase is beneficial for heals and tanks.

Also dont just focus on the target you DOT'ed in the beginning there is a chance the secondary DOT targets with have DOT timers reset which could save you unnecessary cast time.



Can we also stop having this attitude that certain FCs or whatever are the be all and end all of gaming ability. Yes they are good but they are not benchmarks. Especially with a class where the dps is influenced by the party's performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

Look at Summoner. Look at Bard. You're wrong.

---

lol you are using DnT as a Holy Grail? Nobody in DnT mains Summoner, nor takes it seriously. It has been stated before. Also, you should conduct your own tests and see whether things are true or not. So no an equally skilled SMN will beat an equally skilled BRD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

Turn 4 used to take close to a minute per phase when it was all no echo and all in i70 gear, when refreshing dots was a necessity.

as for the rest of it, i dont really have the patience to explain every minor detail and go into how each part is a dps/efficiency gain because clearly your not the theorycrafter type.

---

I'm not a theorycrafter type lol. Good one. You try to correct condescending and yet when I counter argue, you just say you don't have the time or patience. Right. gg. I don't mind having a nice conversation about Summoner. In fact I engage it on other threads nicely. But don't try to correct someone and then give a lame excuse as to why you wouldn't elaborate. You just have nothing to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fatshine

lol you are using DnT as a Holy Grail? Nobody in DnT mains Summoner, nor takes it seriously. It has been stated before. Also, you should conduct your own tests and see whether things are true or not. So no an equally skilled SMN will beat an equally skilled BRD.

---

Yeah, clearly the 2nd place and current top NA guild in FFXIV knows nothing about summoners and for that we have you for the answers. Thank god for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Yeah, clearly the 2nd place and current top NA guild in FFXIV knows nothing about summoners and for that we have you for the answers. Thank god for you.

---

Your welcome :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

Look at Summoner. Look at Bard. You're wrong.

---

There are two major issues with this. The more glaring one is that the best summoner is higher than the best bard on t12 and 13 on that spreadsheet. The second is we don't know what gear was used, the relative ability of the player using the summoners, or wether the strategies used in the fights were structured in a way that skewed the results(I.e. it's possible the summoner runs of t10 and 11 were done without a bard)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Yeah, clearly the 2nd place and current top NA guild in FFXIV knows nothing about summoners and for that we have you for the answers. Thank god for you.

---

While there are undoubtedly a lot of excellent players there, there are also a lot of excellent players elsewhere. If you look at the two leaderboards listed here, for example, you'll find that DnT's leaderboard is actually a little lacking on the SMN front.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMax1087

There are two major issues with this. The more glaring one is that the best summoner is higher than the best bard on t12 and 13 on that spreadsheet. The second is we don't know what gear was used, the relative ability of the player using the summoners, or wether the strategies used in the fights were structured in a way that skewed the results(I.e. it's possible the summoner runs of t10 and 11 were done without a bard)

---

And what bard actually plays without songs. The fact that they are even remotely close IS a problem. Don't even look at bard. Look at BLM vs. SMN if you don't even want to look at the melee and it's still a good chunk of difference.

There is no denying SMN need buffs/tweaks. At the very least that change to spell speed affecting dot's would be a significant boost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lamia-Blackheart

i would LOVE vulnerability up on SF!!!

also, aetherflow should be changed to 50% cooldown

enkindle should be on a 2 min cooldown

bane should affect unlimited targets in a SF radius area

if they made these changes smn=fixed

---

And SCH is even more powerful to the point of needing to be nerfed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanguisio

You can get spur + rouse off in the same GCD, stutter step to stop the animation works for me on console

---

Just spam the two, no need to cancel animations

Also no one in the FC mains summoner for the conversation above, but i cna promise you all the runs were with bards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

And what bard actually plays without songs. The fact that they are even remotely close IS a problem. Don't even look at bard. Look at BLM vs. SMN if you don't even want to look at the melee and it's still a good chunk of difference.

There is no denying SMN need buffs/tweaks. At the very least that change to spell speed affecting dot's would be a significant boost.

---

I don disagree that smn need buffs(they absolutely do, and 3.0 is supposed to bring a significant rework to summoners according the information we've been given so far), I was just pointing out that posting a list of dps in content without context says nothing. Unless you can tell us what gear those summoners were using compared to the bards, whether the groups the dps were recorded in included a foe using bard, or if the players who were recorded are actually good at summoner in the first place, showing their dps in a vacuum is meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

Just spam the two, no need to cancel animations

---

You will still part of the animation, cancelling it will not show anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanguisio

You will still part of the animation, cancelling it will not show anything.

---

I just do them both back to back, and they just go back to back as well.

with no hand motion ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

Miasma II is instant cast, do NOT swiftcast it.

---

Doesn't eat the Swiftcast if you do, though. Some lost time is all, which may or may not affect things. No idea how thight your timings are.

no, it does eat the swiftcast because #logic

It reduces cast time by 100%.

0 - 100%* 0 = 0

Math!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

And what bard actually plays without songs. The fact that they are even remotely close IS a problem. Don't even look at bard. Look at BLM vs. SMN if you don't even want to look at the melee and it's still a good chunk of difference.

---

To be fair, I've played with a lot of very skilled BLMs, and I have yet to be out DPS'd by one on SMN if they were in the same party post MP change.
At most, the gap I've seen of BLMs max parses vs my own max parses, in seperate party comps, tended to be in a 5-10 DPS range, with BLM over which I found acceptable. But what I noticed even more was that BLM is simply unreliable to consistently pull these numbers. Only the most RNG proc-friendly runs for a BLM consistently beat me.

Firestarter as a proc is just very awkward. You are guaranteed to overwrite almost half of them if you chain cast. I proposed a change to give Firestarter 2 charges, and I really hope they implement that for heavensward perks, it will really streamline BLM rotation, as well as also make it so they can have some depth by saving procs for movement.

This isn't really a dps thing, but I just wanted to point out BLM isn't very well designed.

Obviously, SMN also has many QoL things that could stand changing too.

You're on gilgamesh and "beating" the "good" black mages.. um. Are you playing with Octo/Aikaal/Lipton/myself? O.o