Spot the Celestial Dragons

You have to remember that Bahamut has been dead for thousands of years. Yes, he returned as a primal, but for all intents and purposes he's gone in the eyes of Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Velox

You have to remember that Bahamut has been dead for thousands of years. Yes, he returned as a primal, but for all intents and purposes he's gone in the eyes of Ishgard.

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Doesn't Ishgard know that he leveled half of Eorzea? That would be enough evidence that he still lives lol

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Doesn't Ishgard know that he leveled half of Eorzea? That would be enough evidence that he still lives lol

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I wouldn't be surprised if they did miss it actually...

They have plenty of shelters set up for when Dragons attack. Moon is falling? Welp, better get in those shelters. They had no idea Bahamut was in Dalamud, when he pops out they're busy hiding rather than helping us at Carteneau. Bahamut was only loose for a few minutes at best, when they finally came out of shelter they'd have missed the entire show.

Probably think we're lying about the whole thing too, Dragons are their thing, after all. There was a Dragon God in Dalamud and it conveniently disappeared afterwards? Such rot!

That really begs the question of if Primals are technically alive. I mean, is something really alive if it's already died and went through a sort of apotheosis? A Primal can be slain over and over, but is it ever truly dead? Is a Primal's ultimate demise only based upon being slain once, or is the Primal truly dead once all of his worshippers are dead and he can no longer be summoned? Or can he be summoned again once those old worshippers are dead and some new ones spring up?

I'm really not trying to turn this into a primal thread, just postulating on whether or not Bahamut would really be viewed as "alive."

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Doesn't Ishgard know that he leveled half of Eorzea? That would be enough evidence that he still lives lol

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No. They know he's a primal. The difference is that a primal is summoned on behalf of its followers to answer the prayers/wishes of said followers. A primal has some sentience, but usually said sentience is confined to the realm of "I'm here to help you first and foremost as long as you do what I say." I would bet that Ishgard no longer sees him in the same spotlight as the other dragons, whose primary concerns are to seek revenge on Ishgard directly. Also remember that, although the events of the Calamity were shakey, it's agreed that Bahamut's vanishing alongside Louisoix means he is no longer a threat (backed up by Alphinaud letting the Alliance know Bahamut is gone).

my question is. why is bahamut the only dragon facing Midgardsomnr as if they where fighting ??... the plot thickens...
edit addition :
also why did middy answered to nidhoggs call but at the end of 2.0 mainstory when bahamuts roar is heard across eorzea middy did nothing. was bahamut forzaken by his dragon kin? perhaps a betrayal took place


...plot now so thick you can make dragon pudding.

So...I'm pretty sure Bahamut is in the picture in the OP.

http://i.imgur.com/95VMR3b.jpg

Look at the horns and beak of the very bottom dragon...

Mmm, if we're judging by horn shape, I think his match the Green one's better than the bottom one. The bottom one's horns seem to curve above his head before curving back.

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Originally Posted by Durthane

I hope they don't waste Shinryu. To many other options considering we have already established travel from the void/rift to Eorzea. Big Shinryu and Omega fight would be awesome. ^^

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Am I the only one noticed how Midgardsormr looks like Shinryu?

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

That really begs the question of if Primals are technically alive. I mean, is something really alive if it's already died and went through a sort of apotheosis? A Primal can be slain over and over, but is it ever truly dead? Is a Primal's ultimate demise only based upon being slain once, or is the Primal truly dead once all of his worshippers are dead and he can no longer be summoned? Or can he be summoned again once those old worshippers are dead and some new ones spring up?

I'm really not trying to turn this into a primal thread, just postulating on whether or not Bahamut would really be viewed as "alive."

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Well, it's hard to say since a Primal's existence is completely different from a mortal's. Every Primal thus encountered has some degree of sentience - they're able to think and talk - but they all have some kind of base instinct they can't ignore; though I can't find a proper source, each elemental Primal supposedly has a personality "sphere" that dictates some of their behavior (Ifrit's love of dominating anyone and everyone he can through tempering, Garuda's unquenchable thirst for power and destruction, etc). Whether this extends to other / Elder Primals is debatable, but how much of a Primal's mind is its own and how much is shaped through its worshipers' prayers is suspect.

Is it possible to kill a Primal for good? Maybe. As long as the Primal still has worshipers they can be summoned through prayer and crystals, and even if all of said worshipers were killed the Primal might retain its existence in the aether as long as people remember it. Even being forgotten might not be enough; there's always those damn Ascians, and they might retain their original consciousness but have a radically different appearance if forgotten, remembered, and then re-summoned if no images existed of their original appearance. Otherwise they'd probably just be an amorphous blob of energy, a la IX's Ozma.

Shorthand for both questions... we don't know.

So I'm doing my Ixali Dailies...

That very bottom Dragon looks like an Ixali... Like really... Same curvature of the horns... Same beak with teeth... What the hell?

https://i.imgur.com/o3Zwqv3.png

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Originally Posted by Nalien

So I'm doing my Ixali Dailies...

That very bottom Dragon looks like an Ixali... Like really... Same curvature of the horns... Same beak with teeth... What the hell?

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Now that I remember, the Ixaly ( the good ones ) mensions a place on the heavens ( I dont remember the name ) where their ancestors lived. Im thinking, on heavensward and all that about the floating islands. could it be that we may visit that place?

I see the resemblance, although I think it looks more like Hippogryphs who're also a type of dragon:
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/images/1/16/Gwyllgi.png

Many of the dragons we've fought share some physical characteristics the Celestial Dragons, which is unsurprising seeing that their the progenitors of the dragon race

If Bahamut is shown, it has to be #4. Bahamut has a short/stocky neck which only would allow for #1 (obviously not bahamut cause it's white), #4 (Bahamut if he's even counted among the Celestials), and #5 (obviously not bahamut due to horns around mouth). The other possibilities all have long, serpentine necks.

Unless his form changed from his life to his summoning. That could very well have happened, and in life he could have looked nothing like how he did as a summoned Primal.

There are only 7 dragons on the chart and one of them is Middy. So I think it's safe to assume Bahamut isn't on there.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Is it possible to kill a Primal for good? Maybe.

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Well, if you committed genocide on the Beastmen/Summoners who summoned the primal,destroyed any soulstones that contained "memories" of said primal and destroyed any texts related to the primal then you'd be able to destroy the primal for good. So it's possible in theory just not feasible in reality.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Now that I remember, the Ixaly ( the good ones ) mensions a place on the heavens ( I dont remember the name ) where their ancestors lived. Im thinking, on heavensward and all that about the floating islands. could it be that we may visit that place?

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That would be Ayatlan, which is probably the name of that floating continent we'll be visiting in the expansion. Assuming it is adjascent to the Abalathian Sea of Clouds area, that would put it right over Xelphaltol.

On a side note, what if that highlighted dragon is the "Lord of Snakes" in that Garuda myth?

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

That would be Ayatlan, which is probably the name of that floating continent we'll be visiting in the expansion. Assuming it is adjascent to the Abalathian Sea of Clouds area, that would put it right over Xelphaltol.

On a side note, what if that highlighted dragon is the "Lord of Snakes" in that Garuda myth?

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You mean the true god/father/ancestor of the Ixali? beacuse if you all remember, they Ixali started to praying Gaurda time afer they lost their ability to fly.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

You mean the true god/father/ancestor of the Ixali? beacuse if you all remember, they Ixali started to praying Gaurda time afer they lost their ability to fly.

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The Lord of Snakes was the enemy of the Ixali, if anything. He stole their ability to fly (think it was implied he stole flight from everything, actually) until Garuda defeated him, but suffering a mortal wound she was forced to eat his flesh which lead to her insanity, making her a Broken Angel.

I've actually started developing a crazy theory now following some recent reveals... Yes quite crazy actually, feel free to disregard this;

I'm serious, this is probably a dumb waste of your time.

Firstly;

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Floating Continent
While working on the settings, I become well versed in genetic manipulation & bioengineering → Koji

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Source

OK, so the new Floating Continent has something to do with genetic manipulation and bioengineering? Well, we've seen the place. It looks very much like an Allagan construct. They had clones, makes sense...
https://i.imgur.com/SqzBiNg.png
Oh hello Warring Triad, what are you doing here?

For anyone he who needs a refresher on the Warring Triad lore; They were three gods who, fearing each others power, began a war. The mortals caught between them in this war were turned into Espers, and stripped of their free will fought in the War of the Magi. Eventually, the Warring Triad saw the chaos they had caused returned free will to the Espers and sealed themselves away, turning to stone.

Hmm... We have a Floating Continent with Allagan Constructs? Well firstly... The Calamity which destroyed the Allag was Earth based, you think people on a Floating Continent would be safe during that? I do... So... We have some Allagan survivors on this Floating Continent. Their Empire has just been, quite literally, swallowed up by the earth. What do they do from the lofty perch? Start fighting for dominance, of course. Ancient Allag had bested even death itself, Xandes sunk with his Tower. One of them could forge a new Empire, leading it for eternity.

There of these survivors eventually remain (or there were only ever three, which ever). As the Allagans seemed to, they start manipulating their bodies, engineering them into monstrosities which just so happen to resemble the Warring Triad. They start abducting lesser races that survived on the surface, manipulating their genetics and engineering them into grand monstrosities to fight for them. These monstrosities lead their former kin to fight as well, creating many of the mythos surrounding the Beast Tribes Primals. Yes, the Allag created Ifrit and co. They made legendary beasts which tribes revered as Gods, eventually summoning them from beyond the grave (see: Final Coil spoilers). One of the Triad created the Lord of Snakes, a creature able to somehow prevent flight. This prevented his enemies from reaching the Floating Continent. In response Garuda was created (presumably the the Goddess of the Warring Triad, given the more human form) and defeated the Lord of Snakes, though at the cost of her life, and sanity.

Eventually, much like the FFVI Warring Triad, the three realize the chaos they'd created, the Primals they'd created (Allagan weren't big on Primals iirc). They stopped. Sealed away their creations. Created an immortal Dragon to guard that seal. Had Twelve of their creations set things right. Then turned to stone.

Now... The bonus question... Did the Goddess turn into a giant Crystal? Did the Fiend or Demon turn into a certain statue we see the Ascians hang out around?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

The theory

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LOL is is really a crazy theory. I agree totaly that there must be some relation with the Warring Triad. But for the rest we have yet to see how will be( to be honest, I was ignorant to this lore content, I dont know how could I miss all this ).
First we need to understand that you are saing that this "Lord of Snakes" is one of the 7 children of Midgarsomir, so its difficult for me to think that he is dead to, and so if he is not dead, how will the lore surround him would it be?

So many questions, we will have to wait for 3,0 :/

The ixali dailies said that it was the Elementals that took the flight from the ixali (and I personally think the Elementals are also why the Ixali have horns). I recently tried to find a source on the story of the snake that Garuda ate but I was unable to locate it do you have a link?

It's from the old Lodestone, back when Garuda was first introduced. Not too sure where to find it now.

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

There are only 7 dragons on the chart and one of them is Middy. So I think it's safe to assume Bahamut isn't on there.

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I count eight dragons on the picture o.o
(green, white, midgardsormr, gold (four in "top row")
feathery, horned (two in the second row)
multi-horned (one in third row)
beaked (one in the bottom row))

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Originally Posted by Velox

You have to remember that Bahamut has been dead for thousands of years. Yes, he returned as a primal, but for all intents and purposes he's gone in the eyes of Ishgard.

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And technically Midgardsormr is dead as well, with his ghost inhabiting the skeleton in the middle of that lake. So... *shrugs*

I must miscounted the dragons it's hard to tell them apart in the image. Or mistook a dragon for a part of a another. Well for now I'm going to with Bahumut not being included because for all intent and purposes he's a corpse.

Midgarsormr said he was sleeping and it's not as if a living middy looked much different from a "dead" one.

I don't think Bahamut has to be dead to be a primal... We know from Enkidu that a being can simply be willed into existence with enough crystals and desire. Sure, Enkidu was killed by Bartz.... But that was in a completely different world, and with a cross dimensional traveler like Gilgamesh (the ONLY character or thing that directly from another Final Fantasy) we know the soul of a deceased Enkidu doesn't reside in Eorzea/Hydalyn. It would be in Galuf's World/ Combined Planet R. We also know that a property of Bahamut is that even with one world, he can assume multiple forms, such as on VII's The Planet, there's Bahamut, Neo Bahamut, Bahamut Zero, Bahamut Sin, and Bahamut Fury. Then we have On Gran Pulse Bahamut, Amber Bahamut, Amethyst Bahamut, Ruby Bahamut, and Chaos Bahamut.

I would argue Eorzea's Bahamut also works this way, and the True Bahamut has probably been sleeping for some time while a primal incarnation ran amok.

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

I would argue Eorzea's Bahamut also works this way, and the True Bahamut has probably been sleeping for some time while a primal incarnation ran amok.

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While its likely true he does not have to be dead (however, we do not know for sure if a living being can be alive and a Primal at the same time, see Lou. Shiva throws a wrench into things, but Iceheart wasnt the Primal, she was but a vessel for one( Lou did say that Bahamut came back from the Abyss...which almost always means he was dead

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

Snip

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Just to correct your ignorance of what you said was incorrect earlier, please learn more about cultures before you go around assuming what is and is not correct.

In Japan, white is also a sacred and pure colour, the colour of angels and gods, and more recently the colour of doctors and nurses and the health profession in general (Japanese refer to nurses as “angels in white”. White is also the colour of cleanliness (important in Japan), and can also represent reverence, purity, simplicity, peach, humility, youth, winter, snow, good, cold, clinical and sterile.

My best guess:

1) Hraesvelgr
2) Tiamat
3) Ouryu
4) Quetzalcoatl
5) Nidhogg
6) Bahamut
7) Fafnir (Possibly Vrtra)

I wonder if the Celestial Dragon each have a corresponding star? We know that Ishgardian astrolgians were able to detect Midgardsomnr's awakening via looking at the stars. And it seems like looking at celestial objects is how they can tell something major (usually dragon related) is gonna happen.

And well, Celestial = outer space (among other definitions) then perhaps there might be a connection?

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Originally Posted by myahele

Was that really Nidhogg, though? Or any of the other Celestial Dragons? Then again, it does look like a 8 man trial.

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It was missing an eye, so I would assume it was Nidhogg.

By the way does anyone have a link for the confirmation that Bahamut is one of the sons of Midgardsormr and that there will be a side quest about him in HW ? I can't find it...

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Originally Posted by lololink

By the way does anyone have a link for the confirmation that Bahamut is one of the sons of Midgardsormr and that there will be a side quest about him in HW ? I can't find it...

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The info comes from here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ast_interview/

Hey Myahele, not to derail the topic but how did you get that image that's on your signature line?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Hey Myahele, not to derail the topic but how did you get that image that's on your signature line?

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I used this: https://youtu.be/NnR01wRDDl8

And then I converted it into a gif by using http://gfycat.com and saved it into my imgur account.

So the Dragonsong video they just showed had a lot of Heavensward ingame footage, including what I assume to be a flashback of the first Azure Dragoon in white Drachen Armor. Perhaps Whitey is Nidhogg, really thinking there is a cover up or misunderstanding going on regarding these two Celestials...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

So the Dragonsong video they just showed had a lot of Heavensward ingame footage, including what I assume to be a flashback of the first Azure Dragoon in white Drachen Armor. Perhaps Whitey is Nidhogg, really thinking there is a cover up or misunderstanding going on regarding these two Celestials...

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the white one was named while in France. It's name is Hraesvelgr.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

While its likely true he does not have to be dead (however, we do not know for sure if a living being can be alive and a Primal at the same time, see Lou. Shiva throws a wrench into things, but Iceheart wasnt the Primal, she was but a vessel for one( Lou did say that Bahamut came back from the Abyss...which almost always means he was dead

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Just a thought.... maybe he meant the literal abyss. Like the void. Ya know akin to how Shinryu is often locked in the void. Though I will admit "Risen from the void" was also used in the context of bringing back the dead. So who knows.

oooo, maybe the Bahamut that's alive NOW isn't the ORIGINAL Bahamut that was summoned as a primal but a descendant that the name was passed too. Then all it takes is a Shiva Style incarnate summon to stick Bahamut Prime's soul in his decedent's body and BOOM We've got an in the flesh Dreadwyrm Bahamut again.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

The info comes from here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ast_interview/

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I wonder if the SMN job quests are going to explain Bahamut's story, since he's linked to new job abilities.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I wonder if the SMN job quests are going to explain Bahamut's story, since he's linked to new job abilities.

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That's the most likely scenario imo

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I wonder if the SMN job quests are going to explain Bahamut's story, since he's linked to new job abilities.

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I think they're going to explore it in the main scenario first and then the smn quest is going to piggy back off it like they did with the egis. i.e. In your pursuit of stopping the war, you uncover what happened to Bahamut, how he fell, maybe find some residual aether and all that mess, and then in the Smn you learn how to tap into that.