"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

The most fun I've had in a dungeon was when I ran Brayflox HM completely blind with some friends (who had already been before), and they gave me no hints at all. That last boss had me laughing so hard after I wiped our poor little group. It's really unfortunate to see people demanding that you watch a video before attempting any content through the duty finder. Party finder should be allowed to be as picky as they want, but don't take those expectations to DF.

I will say though, if you are new to content, speak up. That's what dooms groups a lot of the time. I think a good chunk of people are afraid to speak up as they think they'll either get a tongue lashing or get kicked.

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To be fair there's a world of difference between Brayflox HM, even when it was first released, and fights like Titan EX, T9, etc.

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Originally Posted by Malusion

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I don't know what the exact delay is like (for me) right now, but it's definately not as little as 0.1~
I didnt watch castbars much myself, as a healer. The delay is very noticable, both when moving out of aoes and when casting. It's possible to clip heals in a way I've never seen possible anywhere else, unless I had massive ping.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

The delays are bad, If I do not turn down my graphics to minimums, According to what I see, I am the first to move, I keep moving all the way to edge of the platform and I die out there. When I would ask other people, the would say it seemed like I moved late. I turned graphics way down and that changed, so I totally believe people who say they were out.

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I'll have to try that. Would be kind of weird if graphics could effect it, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Raeletta

Go and research learning styles, people are very different in how they learn best. Videos don't help everyone, aside the fact that they completely ruin the fun in things being -surprising and new-

Videos teach me nothing, and the few times I ever watched them, made things worse as the way I mange my camera is different, my preferred position any time it's not determined by a mechanic is different... (Boss the right, I move towards the camera for flank skills). I'm far from the only person to be like this.

Honestly, at times I wish I could rote memorise entire boss fights, but its simply not a thing I can do, it's largely reflex from memory.

Practical is the way I learn, usually quickly. Text guides help a little, but only so much. (I'll usually remember skillnames and a general idea of what they do etc.)

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Believe it or not, I'm the same way. I learn better from doing than from watching a video. But watching a video is still enough to give me the general idea about how a mechanic works and what it's for. A good example is Spiny in Garuda EX. There is no way that a fresh person will EVER randomly succeed at this mechanic. They will kill spiny because killing adds is what you're supposed to do 99.9% of the time. If they had watched a video, it would've saved the group at least one wipe (or at least save other party members having to explain "don't kill spiny!").

So anyway, I'm not suggesting that all people learn the same way. Some will get more out of videos than others but I believe you would be hard pressed to find a person who would learn NOTHING from having watched a video.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

The delays are bad, If I do not turn down my graphics to minimums, According to what I see, I am the first to move, I keep moving all the way to edge of the platform and I die out there. When I would ask other people, the would say it seemed like I moved late. I turned graphics way down and that changed, so I totally believe people who say they were out.

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I believe people when they say they were out but that's not really the point. The point is that if they keep dying, for whatever reason, it's going to hurt the group's ability to clear. If you know your lag is this bad, what are you hoping for when you queue for something like Titan EX? For the other 7 people to be good enough to carry you? I've arranged PF groups for players who couldn't beat Titan EX due to lag where 7 other players joined KNOWING it was a carry and being OKAY with that. It's going to be hard enough to find 7 other players in DF who can clear Titan even if you don't have these types of problems but the players have to be even better than that if they have to compensate immediately for being down a player. It's really better to have a creator mentality ("What can I do to help this situation?") than a victim one ("OMG this lag, it's unfair, I'm never going to win!")

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I'll have to try that. Would be kind of weird if graphics could effect it, but who knows.

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It could be a vram issue. Back in the ps3 days, the first everything (gaol, weights, landslide) would come out noticeably late compared to its methodical cycle, but after loading the first time, it never happened for the remainder of the fight. Not saying this is what he's experiencing, but rather a possibility. I personally have never heard of lowering your gpu performance to accommodate for lag, except with the obvious fps issues that may slow down your reaction time.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

It's funny how many people will link those exact 'year old' videos knowing that the positional server response has improved by a huge margin since then.

Those aren't proof, it's about time to stop linking them.

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You say that, but the last update to player position update frequency(in patch 2.1 back in December 2013) happened a month before the first vid you quoted.

Ponies are super serious business mmk?

Most people don't even understand how the game works. They stand in a landslide, and step out if it before titans fist hits the ground and the line explodes and get knocked out and get all indignant "I was out!11!". No. You werent.

When the marker lines that say where it's about to hit dissapear, THAT IS when it decides if you are hit. Not when they finish the age long animations. If you are still in the plume when weight of the land cast bar finishes, your getting hit. Just because you stepped out before the ground explodes doesn't matter.

If you cast succor after the cast bar for gigaflare but before the fancy pants explosion actually shoes on your screen, to late.

The animations are irrelivant and are often really delayed. You have to be out of the aoe area BEFORE the "bad shiz will happen here" marker (red circles, landslide markers, etc) dissapear. When titan is charging landslide with his fist in the air, you need to be out of landslide BEFORE the animation starts. If he has already started moving his fist to the ground to slam it, you are to late.

This game is a little different. The game decides how much damage/knock back/etc you will take when the animation STARTS, but most people only see when it ends and get indignant.

Learn the game you are playing. It's not lag. It's ignorance.

Another thing... it's always "lag" after the fact. The only time I trust the lag defense is when someone starts complaining about it before something bad happens.

I can speak from my own experience. I have this game on both my ps4 and pc and I can affirm that unless I'm using a VPN service, I better get ready for freezes and lags. On both PC and ps4. I can play the entire day, but by night it's almost impossible to play on my ps4, I have to change to pc and activate battleping. Mind you, this is the only game I ever needed a vpn service. Actually, I never even knew about VPN services until I started playing ffxiv. So, while many people will use lag as an excuse, please bear in mind that latency in this game is a serious problem and if you check the technical support section we have a 200 pages thread with people reporting on this issue. And it worse for us, EU players, since our servers are located in Canada. We really do hope someday SE will move EU servers to an EU country, since they boast having over 4mil players I'm quite sure they could afford that.

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Originally Posted by Edenholt

Snap

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I believe they actually have said they are working on it. I don't remember for when, though.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I don't know what the exact delay is like (for me) right now, but it's definately not as little as 0.1~
I didnt watch castbars much myself, as a healer. The delay is very noticable, both when moving out of aoes and when casting. It's possible to clip heals in a way I've never seen possible anywhere else, unless I had massive ping.


I'll have to try that. Would be kind of weird if graphics could effect it, but who knows.

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The way the in built delay works is thats basically on top of your actual lag, not the entirety of it. So for example if its 0.1 seconds of delay between server pings, and your ms to server was 200, you'd get 0.3 seconds of delay, and on old one at 0.333 you'd have over half a sec delay.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

To be fair there's a world of difference between Brayflox HM, even when it was first released, and fights like Titan EX, T9, etc.

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Oh, of course, but that still doesn't change the fact that people should be able to try content (in DF) without first having to watch a 20 minute youtube video. Do you truly enjoy having all fights spelled out for you before you even get to try? For more annoying fights, I do typically try and read a little something about boss strategies, but that's just my own preference.

Well done OP!

I marvel at the fact that you made a thread declaring that making excuses for poor game play brings nothing of value to a group, only to be responded by a plethora of excuses.

Brilliantly executed.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

Well done OP!

I marvel at the fact that you made a thread declaring that making excuses for poor game play brings nothing of value to a group, only to be responded by a plethora of excuses.

Brilliantly executed.

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"These things shouldn't happen ever."
>Those things do happen
Replies point out that things happen all the time.

"Excuses!"

Flawless argument.

I've cleared and am currently farming t10-t13 and all the ex primals.

However I completely and totally understand that latency/lag/server delay exists. Granted, server delay is not as bad as it use to be. Back in 2.0 the devs acknowledged that it was a pretty big problem, and somehow shortened the delay by x amount.

When I first set foot in 2.0 Titan HM I was on (very terrible) wireless. I got hit by EVERYTHING. I thought I was the worst, most scrubbiest player on this planet. PUGS mocked me, swore at me, etc.

Later on a guildie told me that FF14 didn't do well with wireless, so I plugged in my Ethernet cable. When I went back into titan HM I didn't get hit once. I didn't clear it right away, but after spending some time finding a good group I cleared it without incident.

tl;dr I don't get mad at people who say they lagged.

OP is a 100% right. Way too many players wanna blame everything and everyone but themselves for being terrible, especially at an easy game.

Really sad

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

... You do realize there is an actual delay between client and actually moving?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0bMV6BVJSU

Go to 1:00

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This video is over a year old.

Also, lag happens. I understand when people get hit by something because they lagged. Sometimes people get hit by things and then just pretend it's lag, but that's often not the case. Sometimes when there's a bunch of people using my internet connection, I lag tremendously - at this point I realize that all I'm doing is holding back the group until I get that sorted, so instead of just complaining every time I get hit by something, I leave. There's no point in making the group suffer because your internet is currently sucking or sucks in general for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I believe people when they say they were out but that's not really the point. The point is that if they keep dying, for whatever reason, it's going to hurt the group's ability to clear. If you know your lag is this bad, what are you hoping for when you queue for something like Titan EX? For the other 7 people to be good enough to carry you? I've arranged PF groups for players who couldn't beat Titan EX due to lag where 7 other players joined KNOWING it was a carry and being OKAY with that. It's going to be hard enough to find 7 other players in DF who can clear Titan even if you don't have these types of problems but the players have to be even better than that if they have to compensate immediately for being down a player. It's really better to have a creator mentality ("What can I do to help this situation?") than a victim one ("OMG this lag, it's unfair, I'm never going to win!")

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I went crazy trying to fix my problem. What I could not stomach was knowing the fight inside out, know it was coming, moving the moment the graphic appeared, being well out the zone and dying. I watched videos, searched the internet. Improved my gear to nearly I120. Now I am failing because people quit, don't know anything or show up up with minimal gear. It is frustrating.

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Or instead of judging another player on the internet, realize that things like lag exist and may make things difficult for people other then you.

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Pretty much that.

All I saw from the OP was a long tirade about RL problems that pretty much is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

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If it really is the lag, do everyone a favor and don't queue until your connection improves.

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Unfortunately, there's been several occasions over my time playing this game where I wasn't lagging... until I entered the DF. Kinda hard to anticipate things like that.

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It's funny how many people will link those exact 'year old' videos knowing that the positional server response has improved by a huge margin since then.

Those aren't proof, it's about time to stop linking them.

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People still link them because the problem still exists.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This video is over a year old.

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Did you watch it? That WHM was new to the fight or had lame reaction time. I could tell he was going to get zonked by every mechanic before it even connected.

The boss AI follows a strict pattern that you can anticipate and counter. Your anal sphincter should be clenching and your movement key primed before the mechanic begins. That guy was lingering in the AoE far too long; he needs to work on his sphincter clenches.

I appreciate the sociology lesson. However, it's just a video game. A lot of people take it far too seriously for my tastes. And that's coming from someone who has T13 on farm. Combine that with the anonymity that the Internet provides and you're left with some of the biggest douchenozzles ever.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

needs to work on his sphincter clenches.

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You had me at "sphincter".

Yes, lag exists for some people. But op is correct in saying in a df group,no one cares about the reason you're dying. If you are doing badly,you're doing badly. Making loud excuses does nothing. If you are a consistent detriment to a df group, the polite thing to do is leave.

I really appreciate that on jp servers, df is for clears, pf is for practice. Much less painful.

Similarly on watching videos, I don't expect anyone to do so for dungeons, they're simple to explain. But ex trials and coil? If you want to go in blind, make a pf. That's what I do and it's much more enjoyable. Doing otherwise is like you're asking for a carry. Doing something first time when everyone else knows what they're doing is not exactly an achievement...

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Originally Posted by seida

I really appreciate that on jp servers, df is for clears, pf is for practice. Much less painful.

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This is interesting. I'm actually studying social work and learning about cultural differences. One of the things that has come up a lot is how American culture prioritizes the individual and Japanese culture prioritizes the needs of the group. It seems to me that this difference might explain the different perspectives on PF vs. DF. If you join a DF group AFTER knowing a fight, you are not going to burden others in your group (who may be very experienced). If PF is used for learning, then everyone else is either learning too or has agreed to pick up the slack for the players who are learning. Players on NA servers just queue up, totally clueless, lagging so bad they are of no use, and try to hold the rest of the group hostage via the penalty timer and refused vote abandons.

PS even if you aren't lagging when you queue, you know you're lagging after the 10th time of being "out of that" LOL Be kind and respectfully bow out if the group can't clear because of you. And never refuse vote abandons. People don't want to play with you and you can't nor shouldn't force them.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This is interesting.

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Yeah. Obviously this doesn't apply to dungeons, and there will still be new players who join ex primals sometimes, but on the whole it's true. DFing titan ex is smooth 90% of the time I would say.

But also, I don't mind new players DFing if they have put effort into researching it. It's the "it's my first time so I want to go in blind, like you're meant to experience it!" while completely ignoring that essentially the other players will be carrying you and youp experience won't be "genuine" anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

... You do realize there is an actual delay between client and actually moving?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0bMV6BVJSU

Go to 1:00

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There is some truth to this... I have broadband internet with a beast of a gaming rig, and even I have experienced the occasional (and all too annoying) experience of definitely having gotten out of the way of AOE in time, and still somehow being hit by that said AOE.

Had a landslide I was well to the right of take me out in Titan HM well after I'd completed it enough to be more than capable. So I'm dead and I type, 'Sorry bout that, I was well outside that by the time it casted so I must be lagging some.' And toxic BLM was like, "Yeah right lol, you were lol in it on MY lol screen! (lol)". So I told him- 'Yeah obviously! If you aren't lagging and I am, we're going to see different things at the same time, that's why you got to dodge the landslide but I only saw it after it was too late.'

I remember T2 when they'd have Bards Silence the ADS for High Voltage which was really stressful in that you had to alternate turns since they came quicker than your silence cooldown sometimes, and I would be on edge when my turn was coming up because I didn't want to blow it on the wrong ability or have it go too late if having to spam as a GCD Interweave. So there I was once with a PF group, my turn coming up and I backed off DPS a tad bit so soon as I the cast bar started I used silence and it went off but it didn't stop it, and we got hit with High Voltage before cast was done and everyone yelled at me over not paying attention, etc. Someone at least told them they'd seen me do it several times before. But yeah next time happened too, we figured out that the cast bar was showing for me right about as the cast was actually finishing so even early on the cast on my screen was too late. I told them they should find a replacement who's not experiencing lag right then, as it was extremely frustrating for me (more so than anyone else there not on receiving end of problem I'm sure) and it would just hold back their progress. So we left on good terms and there ended up being maintenance and it got better. But being in a situation where you don't have the same info at the same time as others, to your detriment... totally sucks. How people react can make the difference between having a bad experience and having a horrible one.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

words

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It's also a much better use of your own time since with PF parties you can practice with people who are at the same part of the fight as yourself making all the time you spend practicing actually is useful. Using the DF to learn is a huge gamble with your time when you might know the fight up to the third phase but you keep getting grouped with people who make so many mistakes that the party never even gets into the second phase, making all the time you spent in the queue, clearing trash and fighting the boss a huge waste.

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

It's also a much better use of your own time since with PF parties you can practice with people who are at the same part of the fight as yourself making all the time you spend practicing actually is useful unlike using the DF to learn where you might know the fight up to the third phase of a fight but you keep meeting people who stumble and fail on the first phase so much that the party never even gets into the second phase making all the time you spent in the queue, clearing trash and fighting the boss a huge waste.

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That is a very long sentence.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

It's funny how many people will link those exact 'year old' videos knowing that the positional server response has improved by a huge margin since then.
Those aren't proof, it's about time to stop linking them.

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The problem is, the improvement hasnt been that great, and some of us are still suffering terribly of the server response lag.
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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...e94883d513.jpg
This was taken about a few months ago, at the time I was alive on the bottom still,but the second I took the screenshot was a second too late and the server finally updated. No its not my connection, which makes it even more frustrating. Yes I could switch over to the japanese servers which are closer to my location, but I still get this terrible server lag when I do. I actually gave up being a tank as a main job due to this crap as so many times I knew I was clear out of the way in plenty of time, just the server did not update. Now I am maining as a dps but have given up on clearing titanEX as with the slow updating of the server position makes it impossible.
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...3a63c43137.jpg

The thing that this thread has erked me the most is claiming its an excuse. Yes there may be some that use it as an excuse for them screwing up, but for those of us who have tried everything to improve on the situation but fail to see any real progress are not using it as an excuse. The crappiest thing of all is, during beta and for the first few months up till the housing patch there was NO LAG, seriously like none, it was so freaking wonderful and gameplay was so smooth. Now its just getting worst, and worst, each patch it only gets worst and it sucks. Yeah I could quit the game due to this, but I love the game and still manage to do other things in game, just I cannot do the extreme stuff like titan becuz it will not allow for any sort of lag.

Mind if I ask where you are?

Not everything is down to connection as has already been explained. I am on a JP server and get zero lag, and my connection isn't particularly great. If the servers were that bad everyone would get lag, but that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

That is a very long sentence.

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I ramble a lot at 4AM.

Titan EX is a terrible example to use for anything not just because of issues with server-client positional update lag, but also due to graphical lag as well. I have Coil up through T10 and all of the other EX Primals on farm and yet I can't clear Titan EX because Weight of the Land cuts my framerate in half and causes massive graphical lag that I can't always dodge even if I start moving as soon as the cast bar starts. There is literally nothing I can do about this-- I turn my graphics down to the absolute lowest settings and it still happens. There isn't a single other fight in the game that gives me issues the way Titan EX (and sometimes even HM) does. I've had other friends say they experience the same problem, some on PC and some on PS3. Most of them are also in Final Coil, so it's not an issue of "git gud." It's a legitimate problem with the way the fight is designed.

This is entirely your opinion. Some people actually care.

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Originally Posted by seida

Mind if I ask where you are?

Not everything is down to connection as has already been explained. I am on a JP server and get zero lag, and my connection isn't particularly great. If the servers were that bad everyone would get lag, but that's not the case.

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im in singapore. but i am aware not everything is down to connection as not everyone has issues with this. But i was simply putting that claiming it was "just an excuse" is ridiculous as there are some pplz that this is the legit case. And I know its partly due to my location which cannot be helped since I had moved from america to here right before the game came out of closed beta.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

It's funny how many people will link those exact 'year old' videos knowing that the positional server response has improved by a huge margin since then.

Those aren't proof, it's about time to stop linking them.

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It doesnt matter. The server issue is still there. I had one a couple months ago with Titan. Clearly out of the AOE, still get knocked off.

This is proof. Its about time to start accepting it.

It's not so much of a server issue it's a disjoint between the cast bars and animations going off, if you're still in the area of effect when the cast bar ends you will get knocked into oblivion. It's best to keep the boss on focus target for mechanics like these.

This all coming from an Australian who uses a VPN and plays on a Canadian server.

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Originally Posted by Kyandeisu

The thing that this thread has erked me the most is claiming its an excuse.

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Excuse: To explain (a fault or offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood; try to justify.

Claiming lag is the reason you're failing, true or not is literally an excuse by definition.

I've said this multiple times in this thread but I'll repeat yet again: I never said that lag is not real. Only that players have to work harder if you can't do your part and in some cases it will be impossible to get a clear if all players can't do their part. Nobody really cares whether your lag is real or not. If you're dying over and over, you're screwing up the run. That your lag is real actually makes the problem worse because there is no reasonable expectation that you might suddenly lag less i.e. you're not going to be any more helpful if your party members are patient with you.

I can empathize with players who have lag troubles. I still don't want them in my party and neither do most other players. Raging in party chat, being really vocal how you were out of every aoe really accomplishes nothing. It's not that players don't believe you. THEY. JUST. DON'T. CARE.

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

This is entirely your opinion. Some people actually care.

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I believe that excuses (explanations or reasons, if you prefer) ring hollow both in the real world and in game. The prime concern of most people is whether you can deliver. I think this is generalizable to 99% of people you will ever meet. I'm willing to admit a very small percentage might actually be like "Oh you're lagging? Why don't you just stay in the lava pit and we'll get this for you." LOL (did I mention it's a VERY small percentage?). But if it makes you feel better allow me to rephrase: I DON'T CARE.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

*snip*

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"Work Harder"? You saw the 2 videos. What else could they have done to avoid that? In the video I demonstrated, he was the first one to start moving. Youre blaming people for something thats out of their control. Yes, its an excuse. But it doesnt mean its not valid. Thats like saying, "Well its your fault a plane crashed on your ISP's servers and cant play anymore." Theres nothing more irritating than clearly avoiding something and the server giving you the finger and getting hit anyway. It defies all your gaming skills.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

"Work Harder"? You saw the 2 videos.

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I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I think people should work harder if they're lagging. I think if you're lagging so badly that you can't perform your job, you shouldn't even pollute the DF by queuing. Wait until a better night or something. If a player goes on in party chat about how they're lagging it's either:

a) they're telling the truth, we write them off as useless - they can't get better if lag is to blame (i.e. it's not really their fault)
b) they're lying to save face - they probably won't get better because they're not personally accountable

At least if option b is the case, there's a chance the player might improve. Regardless, you're useless in assisting with the only thing random strangers really want from you - your full contribution to the group's success.

Also, lag is real. No one doubts it. But I encounter "lagging" players about 100x more than players who admit a screw up. Common sense suggests that at least some of the "lagging" players really just suck and don't want to be accountable.