It doesn't matter how good of a DRG you are.

I skipped most of the posts sp sorry if this has been said but


"the true spirit of the dark knight resides in those that call themselves dragoon. For you know the pain, and glory, that dark knight once knew in XI "

As the being said. Tell the dirt I say hello, and that I'm sorry I don't spend much time with it, but as a sch it's against my nature.

I see more DRG's dying than NIN's.
Had 2 floor loving DRG's in CT yesterday.
Played DRG myself, it's kinda hard to evade those AoE's at times.
[The hell I suffered from Cutter's Cry Chrimera...]
I would think less derp Nin's because of their speed. Elusive jump doesn't seem to help much.
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No comment on MNK's because they are a rare sight for me to see. I rarely ever see Mnk's.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I would think less derp Nin's because of their speed. Elusive jump doesn't seem to help much.

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Well, that might be just because their twin jump skill only enables when the enemy's HP is under 20%... if that werent the case you'd see them tagging along more often :/

Those Jumping locks are a pain... but its more a matter of timing... and some luck.

With the "tightness" of more of the critical trials (arena size) in this game they should reconsider the mechanics of Elusive Jump. Honestly it should be a 2 second departure from the arena itself (upwards), your character disappears and you avoid all incoming damage save for certain mechanics (like Primals' big "finisher" moves: Diamond Dust, Shin-Zantetsuken, Hellfire/Inferno(whatever they are calling it), etc etc)

It would allow the move to be used more than just as a movement tool to get closer to the boss or next target (as I tend to use it for as it works best like that).

You forgot the ''Dying is part of the dragoon's rotation!", OP.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

With the "tightness" of more of the critical trials (arena size) in this game they should reconsider the mechanics of Elusive Jump. Honestly it should be a 2 second departure from the arena itself (upwards), your character disappears and you avoid all incoming damage save for certain mechanics (like Primals' big "finisher" moves: Diamond Dust, Shin-Zantetsuken, Hellfire/Inferno(whatever they are calling it), etc etc)

It would allow the move to be used more than just as a movement tool to get closer to the boss or next target (as I tend to use it for as it works best like that).

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Sadly, just like Shukuchi or Aetherial Manipulation, you are considered as standing in point A, until animation ends in point B and anything that hits point A will hit you even if you are no longer into the AoE :|

At least they should make it so you are already considered in point B when the skill started...

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I see more DRG's dying than NIN's.
they're neck and neck for me
Had 2 floor loving DRG's in CT yesterday.
everyone loves CT's floor, tastes like candy.
Played DRG myself, it's kinda hard to evade those AoE's at times.
its as hard as it is with any other class.
[The hell I suffered from Cutter's Cry Chrimera...]
I would think less derp Nin's because of their speed. Elusive jump doesn't seem to help much.
elusive jump has saved my rear more times that i can count. also its gotten me killed from misclicks. a lot.
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No comment on MNK's because they are a rare sight for me to see. I rarely ever see Mnk's.

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rebuttals in red

Its not a matter of moving fast enough, I can time that fine, but sometime you CANNOT use the ability to get out of danger because you will either A) fall off the arena edge or B) be consumed by the arena's deadly Auto-death mechanic. However, there IS in the game an INVINCIBILITY buff in the game, if they were to change it, they could apply a 2 second invincibility on the dragoon (you disappear on screen) and they also apply a 3-4 second non-removable stun (so you cannot perform any actions or auto-attack while in the air) on the Dragoon. By doing this the dragoon eludes the damage and cannot completed ignore the mechanics, there is a slight delay debuff with the stun to prevent it from becoming the main way of dodging mechanics.

If that method is not feasible they should at least let us choose the distance we leap back because its like 15 yalms or some crazy nonsense of distance covered.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

rebuttals in red

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Played DRG myself, it's kinda hard to evade those AoE's at times.
its as hard as it is with any other class.

I play SCH, BRD and DRG [I'm not really into it as much as I use to, then again I'm 48. It's gotten boring...]

SCH: Very easy to see AoE's as healer, personally because I'm so far away and not into a cluster fook of AoE's/Skills/trying to do rotations but all
I'm looking at is peoples HP and the battle with my peripheral's.
Bard: Same thing applies, doing damage far away, looking at peoples MP see what they need, looking at my rotations but best of all I have mobility to get out in time.
I cannot do that with DRG. It's harder for me. So yup, that's why
every time I try to dodge or leave out of an AoE, it's super fast and I'm stuck lol. I think EJ saved me like twice. I'm trying to rely
on myself and not the damn jump lol. I remember jumping back into AoE's as a bard. xD! My awareness was shot.
I'm scared to continue any further and salute our fallen Drg's for their work, it's tough.

Stop thinking about how other people feel about your class.

Play it if you like it. There is no wrong class choice.

i remeber when i accidentally elusive jumped instead of impulse drive
in titan hm

landed right on the very edge of the arena

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

i remeber when i accidentally elusive jumped instead of impulse drive
in titan hm

landed right on the very edge of the arena

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I've seen a couple drg jump when Titan is jumping, and off they go.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

However, I do see people preferring the MNK+NIN comp to the MNK+DRG, NIN+DRG comps. The reason when I ask this is often "They do more damage."

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Not sure about damage but both NIN and MNK have better raid utility than DRG does, DK, Mantra ,TA and Goad are pretty damn nice to have compared to piercing debuff that only benefits Bards.

Mantra is a cross-job ability (Ninja, Dragoon, Monk, and any other ability that can equip Pugilist can use it)
Goad is really only great on WAR tanks (Any DPS eats the Goad faster than it can produce, plus everyone can get Invigorate which is x100 better)
Dragon Kick really shines with BLMs in the party as it increases their damage the most (just like how DRG increases BRDs and itself)
TA is good, if you have a good NIN that uses it frequently but in the long run with Mudra lag cuts into their own dps...

So, the game is pretty balanced which in the post I made I said NIN/MNK/DRG/BLM can easily fight for the number one spot.

Me in lalla form:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/e2/e2b1...f4a3b9998c.jpg

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Mantra is a cross-job ability
Goad is really only great on WAR tanks )
Dragon Kick really shines with BLMs in the party as it increases their damage the most
(just like how DRG increases BRDs and itself)
TA is good, if you have a good NIN that uses it frequently but in the long run with Mudra lag cuts into their own dps...

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Mantra: 5% Crossclass, 20% with Monk. It's pretty weak/useless on DRG/NIN. But some still take it 'cause why not?
Goad: Good for both MNK and DRG, as long endurance fights (All final coil fights) Will see you cycling through invigorate and still scraping the bottom
Dragon Kick: Reduces the damage dealt by all these magic-damaging attacks from most of the bosses, and thus offers mitigation. I don't think it increases BLM DPS as INT is not reflective of M.Def.
Disembowel is nice
TA is godly.

What? I haven't noticed much of a stigma towards Dragoon's since they got their buff. Before the buff, though, the problems with Dragoon were abundant. To the point where a good Monk can out-DPS a great Dragoon. Missing a positional made your entire rotation suffer, and with the majority of endgame bosses being the living form of a spinning top (looking at you Melusine), it was very tough.

Come Final Coil and this was mostly due to an oversight from Square, groups needed to go the extra mile to make sure a Dragoon survives a big hit because all of the bosses hardest hitting moves were magic based, and Dragoon's had very low magic defense. If they did end up dying, most of the time it wasn't their fault and out of their control.

Now with the buff and the positional requirements made less strict, the gap between MNK and DRG is much smaller. A great MNK can still out-DPS a great DRG in a fight that has little downtime, but a DRG's survivability and overall DPS skyrocketed, which I'm thankful for.

I originally mained Dragoon before Ninja came out and the buffs were instated, but I still harbor some love for the job. I might re-reroll back to DRG if its given some decent utility in the expansion, because they are still lacking that other than a gimped Mantra and a buff for them and BRDs.

Well, after I see DRG's zodiac weapon, I'm not interest making DRG (even until now I never unlock LNC class) because those Longinus design is really... dull. Not like Gae Bolg's design which really "dragon-like" weapon, it really suits well with their AF. Well it's just my opinion thought :) .

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Originally Posted by Eul

Well, after I see DRG's zodiac weapon, I'm not interest making DRG (even until now I never unlock LNC class) because those Longinus design is really... dull. Not like Gae Bolg's design which really "dragon-like" weapon, it really suits well with their AF. Well it's just my opinion thought :) .

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Yoshi-P's apparently an Evangelion fan, so the Longinus design makes perfect sense from that perspective.

Goad is meh, I still have to sing for the nin.

Give me disembowel any day.

The 3 other dps in my static all do similar dps, one of them being a dragoon. They also all do way more than they need to. Does it really matter who we bring to raids? =_=

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Originally Posted by Eul

Well, after I see DRG's zodiac weapon, I'm not interest making DRG (even until now I never unlock LNC class) because those Longinus design is really... dull. Not like Gae Bolg's design which really "dragon-like" weapon, it really suits well with their AF. Well it's just my opinion thought :) .

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drg zeta is best spear in the game bro

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You will always be considered a 'second pick' to Ninja's and Monks. And this is slowly starting to grate my nerves a little.

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As maining MNK, I know exactly what the problem is. Utility. Dragon Kick and Mantra are very useful in FCoB, NiNs Goad also saves on the BRD having to paeons plus trick attack buffing the whole party. Both of those add more utility than anything the DRG can bring.

That's whats missing from DRG, a utility ability that benefits the whole party.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

Mog Fork is best spear in the game bro

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FTFY! XD

10 letters :P

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

drg zeta is best spear in the game bro

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Nah I still prefer the glow effect of Gae Bolg Animus than the Zeta

Actually, DRG does very competitive damage and has a side effect of making your Bard do more damage as well, overall, making your group as a whole do more damage then you would if you brought a Monk or a Ninja over the dragoon (unless the monk is exceptional).

From what I've seen since the DRG buff, A perfect Monk vs. a perfect DRG will do nearly the same dummy dps, but due to even the smallest portion of unavoidable mechanics DRG will usually slightly, slightly outdo the Monk. The Monk also brings mitigation, which is unnecessary after a certain amount of health (usually ~i123 or so for Bard, etc.), while Ninja bring at best 10% more damage 1/6th of the time (or 1.67% bonus raid dps), and Dragoon brings about +8% more dps to the Bard (won't effect DoTs, but will effect SS, HS, BL, AA, oGCDs), who will already be your lowest dps. In FCoB fights, Monk seems to have the most gap from dummy dps among the three melee dps, more significantly in a couple (T11, T13).

If your raid is doing about 580/570/560/500(Bard) across dps, and about, say, 2800 dps overall, Ninja will give 47 more dps, the DRG will give 40 more dps, and the Monk gives... at that point probably barely-unnecessary mitigation, but might save a Medica/Succor each major AoE. That all seems pretty close to me.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You will always be considered a 'second pick' to Ninja's and Monks.

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very sure it is because DRG does not offer anything for the PT. DRG don't fail behind with the dmg

If only jumps could cause attacks to miss you entirely if you were in motion or up in the air like it did in earlier games. Otherwise my early introduction to FFXIV Lancers/ Dragoons was.. If you weren't face down on the ground, you weren't doing your job right. After a couple adjustments; if you were not dead after taking everything you gave out to the face, you're either not doing it right or your healer is way over qualified... Either way it is a step up from before.

Lolgoon aside, I've noticed a couple times where I was making as much or more hate than the assigned party tank in raids. However I have seen video talk about dragoon being able to reach really high dps with near perfect rotations and positioning between flank and rear. However this is on dummies so I have no idea how possible it is to be that fluid in a real situation.

I think DRG crits means they are superior to MNKs. From my experience with two DRGs in party bosses go down insanely fast(light party). They are completely different DPS though and DRG are good as DRG and not thinking them as other melee. There are also very little fantastic NINs out there, so they are not really an option unless the player has a really good rotation for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

very sure it is because DRG does not offer anything for the PT. DRG don't fail behind with the dmg

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DRG have piercing damage buff so they are great when paired with BRDs.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

DRG have piercing damage buff so they are great when paired with BRDs.

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yeah, I take that back, should have not say "does not offer anything" but should be "does not offer as much"

I second making "Elusive Jump" take you straight UP outta the arena, for X seconds, and making you immune to damage and untargetable for that time, just like Boss jumps.

Isn't that canon FF as well? The Lancer from FF9, Freya?

I dont ever seem to run into any of this stigma. I've received compliments for my ability to SoS OT on occasion as well as keeping my damage high. People generally seem to dig my DRG. Though recently I read some posts that me start debating damage output by dropping Phl and Fracture and adding another thrust combo.

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

Isn't that canon FF as well? The Lancer from FF9, Freya?

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I can't help but remember Freya as a squishy Dragoon, so I suppose that's tradition, too.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

very sure it is because DRG does not offer anything for the PT. DRG don't fail behind with the dmg

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http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...bowel_Icon.png
Says hello.
Reduce target's piercing resistance by 10%
Disembowel has a Piercing status that helps themselves, their bards and all
other bards/dragoons in a raid.

You also need to remember a very important, albeit disgusting, point:

People need someone to /point and /laugh at to make themselves feel better. "Better him than me."

The vast majority of these people who sincerely say these things are just mindlessly regurgitating what they read on teh internetz. They haven't taken the time to compare DPS parses with similar gear levels and played by the same person who knows both classes equally well. Without these elements in place, its almost impossible to get true facts on which job is better.

Most people see another player out-parse them and automatically blame their job, because heaven forbid they blame themselves. They are perfect, after all, and the only logical excuse for their lack of performance is SE's favoritism to a job they aren't playing.

I play DRG in my raid team. I have run most of FFXIV's content with my raid members, as well as people in my FC, and countless PUGs. Very few people are able to out perform my DRG. I can tell you that I have severely out performed every job out there in a variety of settings. I get the DRG stigma very rarely (aside from FC banter), and when I do, it's always a pleasure to see their responses when I tell them our DPS numbers, watch them die to mechanics first, etc. Most of the time, the response is a variant of "Wow, I didn't know DRG could do so well!" They prove my earlier point far better than any parse ever could: People just blindly repeat whatever they hear.

Now, DRG certainly has its reasons for it's stigma, ranging from poor player skill, fights not suited to DRG's mechanic set, FanBoi's who just want to look like Kaine Highwind, and everything in between. But when you actually learn your rotations, single target and AoEs, learn the fight, and most importantly, learn when NOT to jump, you'll very easily prove that DRG can certainly pull their weight on the DPS checks.

Just remember: People just need a job (not their own) to laugh at to help them feel better about themselves. As long as someone else is being laughed at, they feel safe.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I can't help but remember Freya as a squishy Dragoon, so I suppose that's tradition, too.

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Don't forget she also had Dragon's Crest (rancor based move) that ignored defense and Trance

So, should I finish leveling up a drg then? or just keep going on with leveling up my ninja?

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Originally Posted by Ramath

I play DRG in my raid team. I have run most of FFXIV's content with my raid members, as well as people in my FC, and countless PUGs. Very few people are able to out perform my DRG. I can tell you that I have severely out performed every job out there in a variety of settings. I get the DRG stigma very rarely (aside from FC banter), and when I do, it's always a pleasure to see their responses when I tell them our DPS numbers, watch them die to mechanics first, etc. Most of the time, the response is a variant of "Wow, I didn't know DRG could do so well!" They prove my earlier point far better than any parse ever could: People just blindly repeat whatever they hear.

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This has been my experience too. I'm in an LS dedicated to helping people get clears on endgame content (most often T5, T9 and the EX Primals) and I often get specifically invited to groups and farms because the other LS members know that I can be counted on to play well. Heck, my FC has a running joke about me being the worst DRG ever since I'm often the last one left standing when we wipe to things.

People generally appreciate DRGs who know how to do their job and pull their weight in a party. As long as you can do that, you'll be fine.

Also, I've found that the general opinion of DRGs in a party goes WAY up when you just emergency OTed and saved the party from a wipe.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

This has been my experience too. I'm in an LS dedicated to helping people get clears on endgame content (most often T5, T9 and the EX Primals) and I often get specifically invited to groups and farms because the other LS members know that I can be counted on to play well. Heck, my FC has a running joke about me being the worst DRG ever since I'm often the last one left standing when we wipe to things.

People generally appreciate DRGs who know how to do their job and pull their weight in a party. As long as you can do that, you'll be fine.

Also, I've found that the general opinion of DRGs in a party goes WAY up when you just emergency OTed and saved the party from a wipe.

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This is pretty much my situation as well. I've mained DRG since closed beta and the stigma of us dying all the time has been there pretty much the whole time, but in my static and in my FC I'm a valued addition to a party because they know I do my job pretty damn well. DRG is arguably more difficult to play "properly" because of the long rotation and animation locks, but I've never felt that the dragoons who do it right have a hard time proving their worth in parties.