Think Dark Knight will have any HP-sacrificing abilities, for Solo or Off-tank roles?

Was thinking something stupid, but maybe their Hallowed/Holmgang would sacrifice their hp for this kinda buff? Idk but they'll be invulnerable for a trade off of hp, maybe 1 hp but that might be copying the ridiculous Holmgang. Just an idea!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Just to throw in: Is SMN a real SMN?

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Fundamentally they ARE. They're casters that summon powerful creatures to fight for them. In this case, though, instead of gigantic eidolons that would be wholly impractical for an MMO, they gave us elementals.
Essentially, SMNs derive less from past FF versions of summoner, and more from the EQ1+2 Magician and Necromancer classes: The former summons elementals to fight for them that are basically flying versions of the element, while the latter relies primarily on DoTs along with their pet.
Seriously the similarities are...kinda really strong.
And THEN we get the announcement that DRK is going to be a tank.
Well, see, EQ1 and 2 have a class called "Shadowknight"...it's a tank class that uses dark magic. Generally they don't have any abilities that drain their own health, though (well, they got some at one point, but they've fallen into the "neglected crap" pile that's so huge EQ1's spellbooks are over 255 pages long. Per class.
Calling it now: They'll function a lot like Shadowknights. Especially since, and I cannot emphasize this enough, having a tank with an ability that drains their HP is wholly impractical for how tanks function in this game.
In other words, having a damage sponge that hurts itself is like having a car powered by hamsters in wheels.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

*snip*

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Yea, you know? We playing Final Fantasy franchise!
Fundamentally they are reduced to the other job called "Beastmaster" (also known as Trainer or Mediator), SMN was never a pet class job to begin with, FACT.

Edit: We had many, many discussions about how a Final Fantasy SMN could be done for a MMOG. SE ignored all, understandable because they already finished it and did not want to remake it.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Must have been one of the later FF4 remakes. There's like... 3 versions of FF4 in existence. The way original release dates back to the SNES (renamed FF2 for whatever reason), then one for the GBA, and then finally for the Nintendo DS. The later 2 versions incorporate the Dark Knight abilities onto Cecil. (Different between the GBA and DS versions too) I have no idea if there are more versions beyond that.

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Final Fantasy IV: The Complete Collection for PSP (in classic graphic design with better quality, not the 3D graphic)

https://rpgsquare.files.wordpress.co...collection.png


And the PS1 remake

They said DRK will not have HP sacrificing abilities, due to his tank role. MP will be the pool to be sacrified.

I can certainly see "Darkness" being their aoe hate gaining move, whether it reduces HP, I highly doubt it due to their tanking functionality.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Okay, RPG history time:

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OKAY MMORPG history time!

Every instance of a tank in an MMO is the same prime directive, your job is to protect the party. You protect your party with defense and health, that's why we call them meat shields. Oh and there's usually the added activity of keep the attention of the main target that poses a threat to your party.

I understand what you're saying and you're right in that instance, but that is there and this is MMOland.. the definition is different here.

In either case, in an MMO setting, any ability that compromises survivability and the tank's ability to accomplish their primary purpose in the interest of dealing more damage is a bad idea.

Unless of course you're working with a system where the threat table is only manipulated by dealing more damage (we're not). First and foremost your purpose, in an MMO, as a tank is threat management, positioning and staying alive. Anything else, like more damage, is just gravy and unnecessary.

Since SE seems content to give job/classes bare bones functionality (i.e. You tank, that's it. You heal, that's it. You DPS, that's it.) I doubt we'll see much in the way of solo friendly abilities that take Dark Knight back to the traditional form. Their skillset development seems to always have group play in mind and leaves little room for anything else.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

I know right? No wonder why I remember the original SNES version as Dark Knight not having access to Dark abilities. It's not that it was never included... they removed it from the version I played.

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Yeah, the original FFIV release for SNES (or "Final Fantasy II", as they ported it, since they didn't bother to export the original FFII or FFIII) was nerfed in a bunch of ways. Removing Cecil's "Dark" command was just one. If you were confused during Cecil's "Mirror battle" as a Paladin against his Dark Knight self, where the Dark Knight kept spewing out that weird darkness attack that you could never do as a Dark Knight, well, now you know why. They kept that battle the same, but removed the command from Cecil.

Another nerf, I recall, was making the all-purpose status cure item (I forget what it was called) easily available and super cheap. So you had pricy echo drops and antidotes and gold needles all over the place, and alongside them, 20 gil items that could cure anything that they could. So silly!

Anyway, yeah, a bit disappointing that DRK isn't going to have SOME kind of HP-sacrificing move. It wouldn't necessarily have to be central to the DRK's method of operation (as was mentioned, a tank that assists the mobs in killing himself doesn't make much sense), but just a token nod to DRK's "gimmick" throughout most of the FF franchise.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Yea, you know? We playing Final Fantasy franchise!
Fundamentally they are reduced to the other job called "Beastmaster" (also known as Trainer or Mediator), SMN was never a pet class job to begin with, FACT.

Edit: We had many, many discussions about how a Final Fantasy SMN could be done for a MMOG. SE ignored all, understandable because they already finished it and did not want to remake it.

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This x100 the dev team we have now has butchered most of the job that are not the basic FF jobs, ninja is only one that don't feel like they messed it it up. BRD, SMN, and soon we'll see on DRK.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Final Fantasy IV: The Complete Collection for PSP (in classic graphic design with better quality, not the 3D graphic)

https://rpgsquare.files.wordpress.co...collection.png


And the PS1 remake

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dive bomb in 2d 2d :D

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Yea, you know? We playing Final Fantasy franchise!
Fundamentally they are reduced to the other job called "Beastmaster" (also known as Trainer or Mediator), SMN was never a pet class job to begin with, FACT.

Edit: We had many, many discussions about how a Final Fantasy SMN could be done for a MMOG. SE ignored all, understandable because they already finished it and did not want to remake it.

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Yes, this is the FF franchise but so what?
The FF franchise ripped monsters and concepts wholesale from D&D from the word go (for example, Mindflayers) and the very concept of Dark Knight did not originate with FF.
I personally commend the development team for being able to look at the classic jobs and be inspired by them, but not restricted by them. Just because something is like X in Y game, doesn't mean it has to be X in Z game.
And also, in what game was SMN never a pet class? I seem to remember FFXI's SMN being a pet class, what with SMNs running around with their summons that did stuff.
In FFX Yuna was technically the pet class. Though her "pet" replaced the party.
in FFXII and FFXIII they were basically summoned pets with the same restriction as Yuna had going for her, except applying to the whole party.
"Summon creatures to fight for them..." I simply can't comprehend how people don't understand this could easily translate to "pet class."

Honestly, this DRK isn't a real DRK, should rename the class to Rune Fencer or something, having a DRK tank is insulting.

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Originally Posted by Kagalli

Honestly, this DRK isn't a real DRK, should rename the class to Rune Fencer or something, having a DRK tank is insulting.

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Personally I always found having a dark KNIGHT, clad in full plate armor and carrying a two-handed sword, that WASN'T a tank to be insulting.
But then, tanks weren't strictly necessary in the single-player FFs. They are in the MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Final Fantasy IV: The Complete Collection for PSP (in classic graphic design with better quality, not the 3D graphic)

https://rpgsquare.files.wordpress.co...collection.png


And the PS1 remake

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Already noted that when I pulled up the Wikipedia list in my earlier discussion, tee hee. I already knew FF4 was popular, but I forgot how popular. That many remakes should explain things. :p
Still feel ripped off upon realizing that the very first version of FF4 I played was nerfed though after all this time. No wonder why I quickly felt the GBA version was superior, lol.

One fact does remain though: No matter what version of FF4 you look at, Cecil remained notably as a Tank, despite being a Dark Knight, in all versions. (Before becoming a Paladin of course) There's... a small handful of FF games that put a more aggressive spin on Dark Knight, but that's the FF series changing up lore on the classes and what not, along with game mechanics in general, per FF release.

HP sacrificing combined with some of the more aggressive Dark Knight versions out there, is probably why people expected Dark Knight to be a DPS in this game. Nope. It's a Tank instead. Boiling away all the little details, I feel this was needed anyway because, again, we're lacking in Tank and Healer roles in this game to begin with. Some class has to fill that role of being the 3rd Tank. Warriors in heavy armor tend to fill that role easily. :p

And while this isn't what this thread is about, I can't help but wonder if Samurai will get the same treatment and become a Tank in this game?

Samurai would have made more sense as a tank, but I guess they couldn't wait for the Doman expansion and decided to plump for Dark Knight instead. Personally though, I can't consider it to be a true Dark Knight without HP sacrificing abilities. Oddly enough though, I couldn't really consider it a tank if it had HP sacrificing abilities. So, I can't really take the idea of a Dark Knight tank all that seriously.

There have been scarce few FF games which did not have a Dark Knight capable of sacrificing HP for damage, either a damage buff or an attack in its own right. It's been a staple of the job, and removing it is like removing cures from a White Mage. People are naturally going to compare Dark Knight to similar titles such as FF11 since they're closer gameplay wise. And in FFXI it was a damage dealer with fancy skills like Blood Weapon to offset their HP-devouring attacks.

All that said, I'm glad we're seeing a new tank arrive. Time will tell whether or not it actually catches on and alleviates the void of tanks we're currently facing, but it's a step in the right direction regardless of the name.

I know I was taken aback by the Tank role reveal. They gave the teaser hint and so much hype followed, finally i would be able to play as a DRK along side my friends. My brother loves WAR so we were all good to go, he would tank, i'd dps and our little group would have a blast experiencing the game the way we wanted to play in the roles we enjoyed most. After all was said and done i get it... I see what they did and are trying to do and to be honest I don't think it could have worked any other way. I hate the idea of tanking, i hate that i can't do things with my static as DRK, but im going try my best to learn all the job has to offer. As a long time fan of the series im happy with the idea of my DRK not being a squishy bleeding mess of a dps that is the stuff of healers nightmares. I would be lying if I said I wasn't salty about it though... Can't wait for Samurai tank.

PLD and WAR can solo fine, without sacrificing their HP, i'm sure DRK will as well.

cant be a real dark knight then...
its a tank, no skills that needs HP to be aktivated.

Please name it as Buster-Blader, or 2Hand-sword or He-Man. <,<

A tank that sacrifices HP to do anything is about as paradoxical as a Ninja that would think to be a tank.

Unless this HP sacrificing ability is so good it deals Flare-level AoE damage, i shudder thinking about how bad a bad DRK could be in queue.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

i don't think it's conducive to have a tank that has any sort of ability to decrease its own survivability, especially given the job is going to attract a lot of "OMG EDGE" people who don't care about tanking.

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See DC Universe Rage Tank

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Personally I always found having a dark KNIGHT, clad in full plate armor and carrying a two-handed sword, that WASN'T a tank to be insulting.
But then, tanks weren't strictly necessary in the single-player FFs. They are in the MMOs.

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I tend to disagree on this one!
There were many fights where only the tank could survive...
On some games we had "tanks" with learning jobs: On each level up you increased stats from that job, so you was able to learn physical meele classes to get many Life Points while when leveling many mage classes you could get many mana...
On other games it was definied from the job bonus itself and the armor you could wear. Bonus on resistance or materia you add...

When the tank survived he could use reviving items or potions to heal up (mostly first the healer). While the healer uses grouphealing (in preperations for the next attack to heal up again after the attack) the tank revived the other party members with items. now when the healer is rebuffing the group (protect, shield, and so on...) the tank may helps with items or skills to survive another incoming attack. because the tank was mostly the HERO with highest stats i had let the mage help with items and rebuffing/healing stuff while the tank hits a strong attack on the boss. Thats called "recovery" in terms of MMOG and thats what many players miss in FFXIV. True its not easy to add in a MMOG but lets have a look at Crystal Cronicles multiplayer or Grandia II - its not impossible, even Final Fantasy games where we could deactivate the "boss is waiting", we had such systems...

My guess is they did not add recovery because the massive problems with lag and syncing players action, even now we still have massive desync in game.

Other situation, when a mage survived (some bosses did insta kills but only single target - never ever use insta kill AOE mechanics, SE - NEVER EVER!)
You could survive fatal blows with using mirror or "jump" ... there were some skills if you timed it right. its harder than when the tank survived but still it was possible to recover from near wipes. I just wonder why we have that stupid weakness in instances? Sometimes it is said: "then the fight will never end". Thats why you just have a max item size of 99 - i can remember fighting Omega in FFVIII for more than 12hrs and running out of potions... we had some challenges back then with not using special items and lowest level possible, but thats anohter story :)


Back to topic: Please dont name it DRK then, it is not a DRK if not using his own Life - just a sidenote: Thats why we have buffs like stoneskin and such to help DRK, but well FFXIV doesnt stick on the basics and weakens many skills.

they ll sacrifice hp to bring mp then wreck havoc with that broad sword of theirs , 2h wep tanks suppose to have dps and tnk shifts

It was said that DRK will generate a dark aura and shroud themselves in it. I have a feeling it will cost MP continuously to keep it up. Also, I think it will function like dread spikes (deal damage to enemies/generate enmity) and snow shield from silkroad mmorpg where a % of damage is taken from the MP pool rather than HP. For ex. 20% dark aura mitigation means a hit for 100 damage takes 80 HP and 20 MP so I'm guessing DRK players will have to make sure that they always have MP, otherwise they're dead.

In addition, since DRK's lore in FFXIV is that DRKs are the punishers/executioners of the unjust and corrupted holy clerics and higher ups, I think it'd be cool for DRK's to have a really hard hitting skill called Sin Harvest where potency is dependent on the amount that the DRK (or party) have taken from the enemy. But potency caps at like 600 or something. Or an inverse spirits within where potency decreases with increasing HP.

While I can't see them burning huge chunks of HP like DRK normally would, what might work are a bunch of aura-type abilities similar to BRD songs that eat a little HP over time instead, and maybe a self-SSS type effect that eats a bunch of HP when used.

As long as the health sacrifice gives a buff in longer term use it will likely be ideal for tanking - use it when you're taking little damage for a buff that minimizes the following would-be spike damage. I just hope it *also* has OT use.

Through all seven pages i could not find the link/info of all the class skills we get through all 60 level of the yet unreleased game. Could someone be so kind as to point in the right direction? I to want to complain as to how my play style is not represented.

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Through all seven pages i could not find the link/info of all the class skills we get through all 60 level of the yet unreleased game. Could someone be so kind as to point in the right direction? I to want to complain as to how my play style is not represented.

/sarcasm

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I found it, here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQuNPOc4Mng

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Looking at how the Warrior was buffed to remove some of the linkage between its survivability and enmity generation, I don't think the devs would make the same mistake again so quickly. Even if there is a skill that consumes HP, either it won't be useful in raids or it will be tied to some defensive mechanism like Holmgang.

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Either an oh shit HG type move or maybe something like sacrifice your HP to protect a party member(basically cover).

If I'm not mistaken.. the Dark Knight in FFT didn't have any sacrifice abilities either Just drains for MP/HP.

I don't see how you all are getting wrapped up over an ability that did MORE damage to Cecil than it did to the enemy. It was only ever a decent move if fighting like 4+ Imps or Sahugin, and you wanted to one round it without wasting Rydia's MP. It looked cool as far as abilities went in FF4, but that's as far as it went. You were better off using Fight or Item instead of the ability.

Though in all honesty, there's ways to use HPcost abilities with a tank. They just have to be creative with it. Like others have said.. tanks are taking heals anyway. Just don't use something that costs health right before a Mountain Buster or somesuch attack. Heck maybe something that costs HP initially and then restores it back over time.. it gets restored to full in two ticks, and begins giving net heal on the 3rd though however many ticks they wish for it to last.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Stuff

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Yeah, because the healing factor of IB for WAR back in 2.0 worked so well.

Any sort of ability that requires you to take damage first in order to regain said HP is a bad tank ability to begin with. Reactive abilities in tanking is terrible and never works.

Also, DRK was always a DPS. You could get away with HP sac abilities as a DPS, but not as a tank. If there is such an ability on DRK as a tank, they will already be worse off than the other roles and SE will have learned nothing from the whole WAR debacle of 2.0. (Which wouldn't surprise me).

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Originally Posted by Asierid

(..) SE will have learned nothing from the whole WAR debacle of 2.0. (Which wouldn't surprise me).

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They replaced the axe with a big sword :D

There is so little information available right now, I wouldn't be surprised if HW was delayed a month or more.

Maybe something that gives him tankiness in exchange of HP, something like sacrifice X% of your current HP, you receive -Y% damage per Zs. Or sacrifice X% of your maximum HP and gain a shield for x1.5 that amount

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

Dark Knight Move List (Preliminary)

I basically cleaned up and added my own thoughts on a post from a JP site.
http://sokuho.xii.jp/ff/?p=26525


-Yieql Blade (?)
-Overhead Slash
-Unholy Strike

-Aspir Thrust
-Roar of Rebel
-Evil Omen

-Agglutinate Curse
-Nocturnal Fear

-Immortal Conviction
-Dark Force
-Involuntary Guilt
-Oath of Blood
-Thirst for Justice

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nope ...

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

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Happy to help.

Lol that joke was a month ago. Get it together

Personally, I think people should stop forcing ideals onto the developers. They should be given the creative freedom to design and interpret the jobs the way they see fit; and not how the fans see it. >_>

Yoshida already said in x interviews that DRK get skills that cost MP, not HP

I had posted an idea in a DRK thread awhile ago regarding HP consumption. I had suggested the ability Darkness which would be an AoE attack with high hate generation that uses a set % of HP each cast. Each cast would give the DRK a stack of "Darkness", increasing attack power and hate generation. There would also be a combo ability, Souleater, that would then consume the "Darkness" stacks and do an AoE health Drain (stronger for each stack of health).

There could also be a single target variation of this such as Guillotine (consumes HP and creates Darkness stacks for power and hate) which combo's with Dark Harvest (consumes Darkness stacks to drain enemy health).

Basically, a Dark Knight could consume health for higher power, but they would need some way to reverse or compensate for the effect as well.

Anyway, it was just a suggestion but that was the only way I could see a health-sacrificing tank work.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

There is so little information available right now, I wouldn't be surprised if HW was delayed a month or more.

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or you know, people could not be giving information out. just a thought.