Shouldn't DRG be top DPS?

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Something I think is forgotten is that drg have the most def and hp of the dps classes and now their mdef isnt garbage. The fact that I still see them dying all the time is hilarious because on paper they should be the most durable of the non tank classes.
The counter various other posts
Goad has been worthless outside of dungeons (specifically with warriors) and deaths of a melee in coil. Ninjas burn tp similar to a monk so paeon is still required.

Monk is not the worst aoe dps. If a monk is dps is low in aoe situations it's because the misconception has taught them to not aoe (this needs to change). I believe ninja is since the nerf. Lastly, as much as I love trick attack you rarely get a large benefit from it unless you run a 2 ninja setup. 10secs only allows for a small amount of attacks depending on the class. It's still one of the greatest utility skills but not as much as ppl claim

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Monk IS the worst aoe DPS in the game. Death blossom and katon destroy monks AoE potential. Between the melee DRG>NIN>MNK in terms of AoE potential. As for trick attack, if you are looking at it on main targets, yes it adds something like 2.5% (correct me if I'm wrong, read similar numbers somewhere) raid dps over the course of the entire fight. But for add portions of the fight, trick attack makes things explode.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

Hit the nail on the head.

But then you also have threads like "why bring mnk" with a bunch of monks salty over the fact that there's now balance (unless drg and nin get an int debuff, the monk is solidified in a typical progression static but eh).

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Because of all the players and classes out there Monks have always been the ones that have complained the most, lol
Seriously though the classes are now fine how they are, no more need for buffs or nerfs.
However i will be curious when Machinist comes out and it is said to be sort of a support class, will they have better utility to the group and do more dps then Bard?
Sorry offtopic but something that i wonder

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Originally Posted by Maero

Because of all the players and classes out there Monks have always been the ones that have complained the most, lol
Seriously though the classes are now fine how they are, no more need for buffs or nerfs.
However i will be curious when Machinist comes out and it is said to be sort of a support class, will they have better utility to the group and do more dps then Bard?
Sorry offtopic but something that i wonder

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Lmao seriously, I'm reading that thread and my brain is melting. "Monk should be #1 but sometimes if we get lots of mechanics we lose dps, pls fix SE" idk GL has always been the mechanic if you hate it that much then switch to bard? lol

We'll see about machinist, assuming battle mechanics don't significantly change we still need tp regen and mp regen abilities.

After that maybe machinist will get higher damage at the loss of a foes utility? or maybe they'll get a physical version (I have no idea lmao im just grasping at straws). For balancing sake I can't see them being 100% better than bard.

The Machinist seems like the direct competitor versus the Bard. There might even be specific content where you'd want a Bard over Machinist, visa versa. They'll be exactly the same damage wise and provide similar support mechanisms.

As for TP Regen... I have no idea how that'll work in the Expansion or how effective/ineffective it'll be. YoshiP said that SkillSpeed is getting completely reworked in the next expansion, which directly influences TP usage.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Because of all the players and classes out there Monks have always been the ones that have complained the most, lol

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I think you will find the MNK GL bellyaching has waned since the addition of NIN.

All the people who wanted "Increase DPS by 20 percent? Y/N" now have a job that literally does that.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Monk IS the worst aoe DPS in the game. Death blossom and katon destroy monks AoE potential. Between the melee DRG>NIN>MNK in terms of AoE potential .

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I'll be the exception then. With PB monk aoe is far better than given credit for. And even without PB it's still competitive. GL plus twin is still a huge 42% damage increase on top of a attack speed. Ninja has a flat 20% that only affects death blossom and if you want the extra attack speed then you waste an aoe attack. obviously the 10 seconds of the PB is better than drg or ninja aoe no matter how you decide to calculate it (yeah I said it. Ever seen the difference between a crit and non-crit attack? Not quite there but that's what gl3 does) but the low arm of the destroyer potency plus the non aoe move in between each rotation makes calculating a bit harder without PB . Also a full gl3 howling fist is far stronger than katon and even doton (the trade-off is 3 katon/doton to a monks 1 howling)

Blueskyy, you misunderstand, exaggerate and/or lie.
For one, I would say I maximise DRG pretty damn well. This is of course my opinion and not particularly relevant.
More importantly, I'm just looking at the classes with the most objective view I can. DRG is meant to have the same DPS as NIN, and definitely has less utility. MNK is meant to have more DPS and has utility between the two, but has the drawback of Greased Lightning management. I certainly don't want DRG to have a million DPS or infinite free ballads or some other such lies as you say, it's simply that DRG is inferior to NIN, end of.
As a single class vs another single class, DRG is objectively worse (taking into account Square thinks DRG = NIN solo DPS), so the only argument you can make is when you're in a team.
The resistance debuffs do not affect DoTs, which means they increase the damage of DRG and BRD less than they increase the damage of WAR, PLD, MNK and NIN, so Disembowel isn't nearly as good as you would think, and when you compare it to Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye, either the NIN is buffing both tanks which is more than the BRD increase, or the WAR is applying it for the NIN and the NIN can use Aeolian Edge many more times, which is, again, an increase more than the BRD increase.
So when comparing them one for one, AND when comparing them in a team, NIN and DRG do extremely similar DPSs, and I am fully willing to accept they do the same, which is less than MNK.
And then NIN has the best utility of any class outside BRD on top of that, while DRG has the worst utility of any class.

As for AoE, Nin's is pretty bad, and MNK's is worse if it's not using Perfect Balance (NINs remember to Doton -> Kattatsu -> Katon), but even if a MNK does use Perfect Balance, it will be behind a DRG that uses, and can aim, Impulse Drive instead of Ring of Thorns. Ring of Thorns is pretty bad and only really there for humongous pulls where ID can't be aimed at everything, or for those who cannot aim themselves. I nearly never use it myself.

And for Machinist, it looks like we'll have a class of two halves; a standard DPS class that parses pretty low, and spare metal which can be used in a few ways; a debuffing minibot, a buffing minibot (like Selene, perhaps, or a version with access to Paeon/Ballad), and a weapon attachment that increases DPS to the level of the other classes. That's how I've understood it, anyway.

Think you meant Doomspike instead of Impulse drive ;) but yeah DRG>NIN>MNK in the AOE department.

Nothing comes close to Blm aoe. Period. You cannot even compare. Its BLM > DRG/ WHM > everything else > dead last: MNK

Nothing comes close to Blm aoe. Period. You cannot even compare. Its BLM > DRG/ WHM > everything else > dead last: MNK

Um NIN has pretty fkin awesome aoe. It aint DRG AOE, thats 4 sure. But very few jobs can tip DRG aoe.

As for MNK, they have strong aoe man. They are just mega slow. Perfect balance spam doesnt work in a speedrun. Its on a timer. And getting greased lightning 3 will take 22 seconds anyway. If you got 1 blm, the trash will be dead by that time.

So MNK aoe vs BLM aoe cant even be compared. Speed is everything in a speedrun. And MNK doesnt have it. People used to speedrun Wanderers Palace in 8 min. All it took was tank, healer, brd, blm. And that was with max ilevel capped at 70. With a mnk in the group, that would change to 20-25 min.

The only reason why the dungeons today seem more or less the fair to all jobs is because SE implemented speedrun measures in the dungeons so you cant mass pull and then mass flare everything. But that has nothing to do with MNK aoe though.

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

I'll be the exception then. With PB monk aoe is far better than given credit for. And even without PB it's still competitive. GL plus twin is still a huge 42% damage increase on top of a attack speed. Ninja has a flat 20% that only affects death blossom and if you want the extra attack speed then you waste an aoe attack. obviously the 10 seconds of the PB is better than drg or ninja aoe no matter how you decide to calculate it (yeah I said it. Ever seen the difference between a crit and non-crit attack? Not quite there but that's what gl3 does) but the low arm of the destroyer potency plus the non aoe move in between each rotation makes calculating a bit harder without PB . Also a full gl3 howling fist is far stronger than katon and even doton (the trade-off is 3 katon/doton to a monks 1 howling)

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You will not have perfect balance up for every pull. For an average pull You will be able to use rockbreaker every 3rd gcd (184.6 lets call it 185 to put the numbers in your favor, fully buffed). While NIN will be able to use death blossom every GCD (120 potency) and DRG being able to use doom spike every GCD as well (160 potency). Now even if we were to get into burst as you were talking about howling fist. Death blossom + double katon for NIN, and for DRG we have doom spike + dragon fire dive. The only time you would even remotely pull ahead is when you have PB up and when that falls off, you go back down again.

We out gear content so much that there is no reason to make such a small pull where it isnt up for every pull. Honestly maybe the difference in numbers I saw were attributed to a stronger internal release. 30% Higher crit chance is real.For reference im a monk that went ninja and then back to monk after the nerf. I saw the difference running wp for my monk zodiac (ugh 20+ runs) both using 115 weapons (ha and nexus). Maybe you can say I hadn't mastered the class like monk but compared to pre nerf, ninja blew monk out of the water in aoe. If it was attributed to more crits then either way it's very close
Anyway enough arguing. I wouldn't mind if im wrong as long as my point gets across . that is it's nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be and monks need to stop being afraid to throw out aoes

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Originally Posted by IXZERO

Think you meant Doomspike instead of Impulse drive ;) but yeah DRG>NIN>MNK in the AOE department.

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Yeah... wrote that post at like 5:30 am...

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

it's nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be

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Maybe, but it's still the worst of any class.

DRG is fine the way it is. Sure, MNKs may pull higher numbers on a dummy, but in practice I find I routinely out-DPS MNKs because they end up losing GL due to mechanics in many fights. They've got increased utility as a tradeoff for the fact that maintaining GL can be very difficult if not outright impossible in certain battles.

I agree in terms of monks, it depends on the fight.
I find NIN massively better than DRG, though. All that utility for very similar DPS.

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Originally Posted by 4gotmypassword

I agree in terms of monks, it depends on the fight.
I find NIN massively better than DRG, though. All that utility for very similar DPS.

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Ninja Utility ends with Trick Attack, sure Goad is really nice on paper but in the end a Bard has to play his Peom anyway because Ninjas use just as much TP as monks.
In the end it's only really useful when someone dies or giving it to others while you TP starve, before the TP nerf Goad was godly for the very reason that you didn't run out of TP yourself so bards didn't have to play Peom and could focus on Requiem instead.

Tanks.
Paeon won't keep them up as well as it will for anyone else.
Goad will.

If you invigorate at 600 tp as MNK/NIN you should't have any TP problems, even on non stop attacking long fights like T10.

You can also let the bard use battle voice with paeon to reduce the need for tp. Since bards dont benefit from BV you can make up the difference with goad. Another use would be to give goad to your war or drg in add phases so that ge can increase his dps with aoe. Goad is still useful you just need to be creative.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

If you invigorate at 600 tp as MNK/NIN you should't have any TP problems, even on non stop attacking long fights like T10.

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Yes, you will. You must not have crafted gear with SS on it. Cause you drain quick. Also, T11 is a non stop fight, T10 has some minor breaks in it.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I feel people who make threads like these should get banned off the forums. It adds no value to discussion; instead starts banal arguments and e-peen wars.

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Why? People like me who only play one class can learn from this from being unbiased and looking at both sides of the coin. Since you can already predict what the thread entails, you're clearly not the target audience. Why ban them when you can just not take part in the conversation?

Your post added nothing to the discussion at hand and I've learned nothing from it.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

Why? People like me who only play one class can learn from this from being unbiased and looking at both sides of the coin. Since you can already predict what the thread entails, you're clearly not the target audience. Why ban them when you can just not take part in the conversation?

Your post added nothing to the discussion at hand and I've learned nothing from it.

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If you're looking to learn something from Dervy you should check out his other post, he's been very constructive about Dragoon.
He's just tired of this bullshit in the forums of people crying for nerfs/buffs just because they can't seem to get it right and feel bad because other people actually play better than them.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

If you're looking to learn something from Dervy you should check out his other post, he's been very constructive about Dragoon.
He's just tired of this bullshit in the forums of people crying for nerfs/buffs just because they can't seem to get it right and feel bad because other people actually play better than them.

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Whole load of projecting going on there...

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

If you invigorate at 600 tp as MNK/NIN you should't have any TP problems, even on non stop attacking long fights like T10.

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Not if you're good.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Not if you're good.

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We kill T10 under 6 minutes lol.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

We kill T10 under 6 minutes lol.

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Tp should run dry in 4 minutes with perfect invigorate usage. Possibly sooner.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Tp should run dry in 4 minutes with perfect invigorate usage. Possibly sooner.

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That's not even factoring in the multi dotting used on t10 adds, TP drain. e.e