Sick of unjust vote dismisses

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Originally Posted by Jinko

9 times out of 10 if you are being kicked there is a good reason, people aren't being dickheads for no reason...

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You said, 9 times out of 10, if a person is being kicked there's a good reason. That's the same thing as saying 9 kicks out of 10 are justified.

As you can see, my reading skills are fine, thank you.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

We are discussing what you claim to be that 1/10 part of it. Go run along now and bandwagon with the rest of the replies.

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I'll run along when I'm good and ready, not when you tell me too :D

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Originally Posted by ZeigusAstora

i told a tank to stop stopping and to pull things or else I'd pull..

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From this alone I feel like you were trying to force a speed run that they didn't want.

Now you need to take a few things Into consideration.

What dungeon was this?
Was the tank or healer new?

Maybe the tank didn't want to overwhelm the healer.
Maybe he isn't super confident in himself and didn't want to get overwhelmed by pulling to much or constantly.

It's nice to take a couple seconds in between pulls to get straight. Not everyone likes speed runs.

Im not insta-labeling you as the bad guy, just saying there are a few things that could have been effected by you threatening to start pulling, which isn't your job, and caused the others. In the party to not be happy.

...I've never been voted kicked either. Even when making mistakes (which I say 'oops, my bad, I did -xyz-'). You are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Chevrefoil

...I've never been voted kicked either. Even when making mistakes (which I say 'oops, my bad, I did -xyz-'). You are doing something wrong.

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Guessing you haven't read the responses in the thread? Kaedrian and I have been posting many examples of instances of vote kick abuse that have happened to us. I don't know about the OP, but our point is a kick =/= you did something wrong necessarily. There are jerks out there. They abuse vote kick. Consider yourself lucky, and do not assume everyone who has been kicked deserves it.

Jesus, will you two stop trying to be bullies? We get it, abuse happens sometimes. People lie sometimes too. Did the OP lie or was the OP abused? It could be one, the other, or both even. I know if this thread was a dungeon group I'd kick you. Debating with people of dissenting opinion is one thing, but bullying and browbeating and demeaning them just makes you look like the kicks you got were justified.

On topic, I've been kicked from dungeons since September 2013... I think... four times? Maybe? I don't keep track, and probably three of those four were justified by me not knowing content or having connection issues. That's over WAR, MNK, and BLM, so it can be tanking, but not healing. Does that statistic line up with everyone else? Naw, everyone's different. But I'm willing to bet most people have similar statistics. I usually don't talk at all in pugs, because it's really not what I'm there for and I'm not going to see anyone else there in all likelihood ever again- and I'd say my worst quality is being abrasive in the face of bad behavior, like if the tank refuses to take Sword Oath off in dungeons and I'm forced to tank mobs instead in a caster bathrobe. But I've never been kicked for telling a tank to switch to shield oath so I don't get beat up, or fighting back when they start getting uppity at me for telling them how to do their job so that I don't (inadvertedly, in this case!) have to.

Care to explain how we're bullying? We're discussing a legitimate concern in a civilized way. Also, that would be vote kick abuse if you kicked us. We aren't doing any of the 4 things on the list of kick reasons :p

Seems like taking abuse and not talking about it, or seeing it and falling in line are exactly what a bully would want from their victim or witnesses, actually.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Care to explain how we're bullying? We're discussing a legitimate concern in a civilized way. Also, that would be vote kick abuse if you kicked us. We aren't doing any of the 4 things on the list of kick reasons :p

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You're harassing people who disagree with you with terms like "are you even reading" and "go run along now and bandwagon", and "what is wrong with you people". I read at least one "I delivered the truth" from the topic too, and saying your stand is anything but an opinion is simple logical fallacy. Hells, everything I'm saying is my own opinion, and I recognize it. That's what makes it a discussion.

So yes, it does actually fall under a kick reason.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

You're harassing people who disagree with you with terms like "are you even reading" and "go run along now and bandwagon", and "what is wrong with you people". I read at least one "I delivered the truth" from the topic too, and saying your stand is anything but an opinion is simple logical fallacy. Hells, everything I'm saying is my own opinion, and I recognize it. That's what makes it a discussion.

So yes, it does actually fall under a kick reason.

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I never said any of those things. Someone insulted my reading skills actually. I'm simply telling about my experiences, and reminding people that there are people with different ones from their own. Oh and um...disagreements are not harassment.

Can't form an unbaised opinion when you only hear, at best, half the story.

And if someone said they will pull more, I'll let em pull, and I'll let em die also. You pull it, you tank it. If they keep doing it, I'll either watch em nerdrage quit or vote kick. With a "You want to set the pace? Go tank."

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Originally Posted by Adire

I never said any of those things. Someone insulted my reading skills actually. I'm simply telling about my experiences, and reminding people that there are people with different ones from their own. Oh and um...disagreements are not harassment.

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Being demeaning is. And there's been plenty of demeaning going on. I'm not going to individually go quoting lines from half the posts in the topic either way, though.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Being demeaning is. And there's been plenty of demeaning going on. I'm not going to individually go quoting lines from half the posts in the topic either way, though.

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Well, you won't find anything demeaning in what I said. There's a very fine line between a passionate debate and critique, and hateful, intentional demeaning. The internet isn't a place for someone who can't handle "what's wrong with you people" from someone who is obviously distraught that people seem to think she's at fault for being kicked.

And to be honest, I share her feelings in that regard, though I'm refraining from venting these feelings. Many of the posts here seem quite insensitive, and many are directly or indirectly telling us it's our faults for being abused and kicked. We've used examples of how we've been kicked, yet people are still defending the actions of our kickers and acting as if it's not an issue worth addressing because their own experiences have been different. That's like someone who was bullied being told to sit down and stop whining by everyone else, it's the victim's fault.

Considering the responses from the OP and said supporters, I can understand why they get vote-kicked often.

And yes, it is bullying to accuse someone of not reading when they simply present their own experiences. I posted -one- response sharing my experiences and you immediately attacked me. Are you saying -reading- how you have been abused will change the fact that many people have never been kicked unjustly?

I must admit I've been kicked a couple of times by silent groups that never talk. The kick ALWAYS comes immediately before the final boss with no warning. Considering that all I say in these dungeons is a polite 'Hello' at the start before giving up because they refuse to talk I think it's safe to say I didn't do anything to upset anyone. I'm pretty sure these are pre-formed groups entering with the intent to troll or to try and let a FC friend join for the last boss. Both are breaches of the ToS and are reportable if you can get their names.

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Originally Posted by Chevrefoil

Considering the responses from the OP and said supporters, I can understand why they get vote-kicked often.

And yes, it is bullying to accuse someone of not reading when they simply present their own experiences. I posted -one- response sharing my experiences and you immediately attacked me. Are you saying -reading- how you have been abused will change the fact that many people have never been kicked unjustly?

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You're proving our point unfortunately....and no, I don't get kicked often. When I have, it's been wrong though. Upon entering a duty, I usually say nothing, do my job, and move on. I did not attack you, I asked if you read, because you said we must have done something wrong. I assumed you would maybe change your opinion after seeing the reasons we were kicked.

And no, I never said that. I actually mentioned in a previous post that I'm aware I am unlucky in that regard. I also mentioned that I know people who have this problem more frequently than I do, and less frequently. As a human being, are we not all entitled to be treated fairly though? How is it a problem that I'm wanting justice for the supposed minority of people who get kicked for wrongful reasons?

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I must admit I've been kicked a couple of times by silent groups that never talk. The kick ALWAYS comes immediately before the final boss with no warning. Considering that all I say in these dungeons is a polite 'Hello' at the start before giving up because they refuse to talk I think it's safe to say I didn't do anything to upset anyone. I'm pretty sure these are pre-formed groups entering with the intent to troll or to try and let a FC friend join for the last boss. Both are breaches of the ToS and are reportable if you can get their names.

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Yes, do report these people if they do this. I've reported a few for doing it, hopefully something was done to them.

You -cannot- legitimately get kicked in this game for unjust reasons. It is a bannable offense. If someone chooses not to report abusive vote-kicks, that is their decision. Admittedly, reporting abusive vote-kicks will not change the fact that you were kicked, but it should be an incentive for people NOT to abuse vote kicks. I have been running dungeons and raids for awhile now and the only times I have seen vote kicks initiated were for people offline or afk.

I am taking you to task for your attitude and tone in your posts which is less than polite and civil, not the actual content. If you want people to support your cause, you should be more diplomatic in your language. Saying "I understand that you have not personally experienced this, Serenity, but unfortunately, others have, despite your view, and don't you agree that it's wrong?" is far more civil than accusing someone of not having read the thread.

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Originally Posted by Chevrefoil

You -cannot- legitimately get kicked in this game for unjust reasons. It is a bannable offense. If someone chooses not to report abusive vote-kicks, that is their decision. Admittedly, reporting abusive vote-kicks will not change the fact that you were kicked, but it should be an incentive for people NOT to abuse vote kicks. I have been running dungeons and raids for awhile now and the only times I have seen vote kicks initiated were for people offline or afk.

I am taking you to task for your attitude and tone in your posts which is less than polite and civil, not the actual content. If you want people to support your cause, you should be more diplomatic in your language. Saying "I understand that you have not personally experienced this, Serenity, but unfortunately, others have, despite your view, and don't you agree that it's wrong?" is far more civil than accusing someone of not having read the thread.

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I reported the people who kicked me in Halatali. I'm not sure what, if anything was done to them, but that's not the point of this topic. The point of it is to show that there are people who are not fearful of abusing the vote kick feature, not uncommon in my experience, and to show that the kick feature is flawed. We have discussed at least one possible solution to the latter, and the former is something that only SE can fix through better enforcement and harsher punishments. SE will only do so through enough player support, which is partly what the forums are for. To show player discussion about the game.

I'm also not sure how my attitude is bad...it may not be overly polite, as I've been often told I have a neutral and robotic tone when I type, but I can assure you I have not intended to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm actually a very sensitive person myself, and people have insulted me on this topic, but I haven't been bothered and haven't responded with insults. What's bothering me is the seeming insensitivity of people, and the blame people are putting on me and the others for posting about our bad experiences and acting as if we're at fault or lying.

Besides, again, I did not accuse you of not reading the thread. I -asked- if you did. And I asked because your response made it seem like you didn't. I mean, saying we're at fault, with the reasons we posted....plus, if you did read them, it would mean you knew the reasons and still believed we were at fault. Either way, can't you see how me thinking maybe you missed the posts was the more optimistic of those two things?

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I must admit I've been kicked a couple of times by silent groups that never talk. The kick ALWAYS comes immediately before the final boss with no warning. Considering that all I say in these dungeons is a polite 'Hello' at the start before giving up because they refuse to talk I think it's safe to say I didn't do anything to upset anyone. I'm pretty sure these are pre-formed groups entering with the intent to troll or to try and let a FC friend join for the last boss. Both are breaches of the ToS and are reportable if you can get their names.

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I'l agree this is bullshit and should be reported and tbh it would be quite easy for SE to clamp down on this by simply looking at the logs and what happens after the person gets kicked.


The issue I have is that we complained when people trolled in parties and we had no way of removing them, so they added this feature and now we're moan because people are trolling in other ways.

I ask Adire this ~(seeing as you are being the most vocal in here)~, what would you have them do to solve this issue ?

Lets try to agree that having them investigate every case of unfair play is most likely not a suitable solution for starters, so where do we go from there.

Instead of argueing about the ifs and buts how about we try and come up with a solution ?

A partial solution someone else mentioned earlier in the topic, as well as myself just moments before them, involved making the person being kicked be an automatic No vote. As the feature stands now, voting someone out in a 4 man dungeon does not require a majority. The person being kicked has no vote at all, so even if the neutral person votes, it won't matter if the 2 buddies vote Yes. It's currently not fair. It could still be abused if 3 people were in a premade vs 1 random person or if one person simply didn't vote, but it would definitely lessen the amount of times this happens, and at least get it to require a majority.

An additional action would be for SE to ramp up the punishment for abusing the feature, enforce it very strictly, and do more investigation if needed and possible. Basically, dissuading people from abusing the feature to start with.

I imagine doing both of these things would pretty much stomp out this from happening.

I got kicked once for showing my manqote's legs... I was wearing the Lord Yukata pants... guess some people can not deal the sexiness that is a male kitty.

Aw *pets kitty* They be jelly.

I'd appreciate the sexiness if you were in a dungeon with me :(

I'd do the opposite of kicking you, random /pet's throughout the dungeon and a commendation and some catnip at the end!

I stopped reading after I did read "he cried in /tells to tell the DPS to vote kick just before the final boss..."

..currently we cant use /tell chat" in dungeons.

So that Abuse votekick story cant be true. o__o

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

HE GAVE A VERBAL FEINT.

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This is beautiful.

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Originally Posted by ZeigusAstora

I told a tank to stop stopping and to pull things or else I'd pull.

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I love when people do this. I go get some popcorn and watch them suicide.

You pull it, you tank it. ^^

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I'll run along when I'm good and ready, not when you tell me too :D

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And yet you've been doing what i asked you to before i even asked you to do it. Bandwagon fallacy. /facepalm

There IS a legitimate reason for a tank to stop just before pulling - TP. It can be a serious problem on marauder / warrior. I don't like to pull unless I am 100%, and neither do most tanks.

Vote-kick was a feature asked by the players to kick trolls and afks.
When people were blatantly joining CM and Praetorium to AFK and get carried, and you still see similar behavior in the crystal tower series.

Like a lot of people in the thread, I have yet been vote kicked since the implementation of vote abandon - and I queue solo - I would assume it be easy to vote kick me if they wanted to.

But I have vote kicked many people - some of the reason you may find it to be not a validated reason but it is to me and someone else most likely agree and the vote kick went through.

You can always create your own static speed run group. That way you Vote-Kick system is nullified by design.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

And yet you've been doing what i asked you to before i even asked you to do it. Bandwagon fallacy. /facepalm

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Excuse me... Can you stop harassing me now ? thanks /kick

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Originally Posted by Lavelios

https://i.imgflip.com/i9iv0.jpg

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i havent *o* should i be proud?? XD

You know. I've only been vote-kicked once in all the time I've played. It was back in the day when I leveled my first tank to 50. I was gearing up and admittedly uncomfortable in the role(PLD). I went in AK for the relic quest; at that point in time the best weapon I had was ilv70. I got paired with a BLM decked out in all BIS and had issues keeping aggro off him. He swore his face off at me. First time I saw someone rage so hard, tbh. I said sorry and explained myself. Right before the last boss he laughed at me and then I was vote kicked. /shrug

But I would rather come across people like that BLM and get voted kicked then not have a vote kick at all. I remember when there was no vote kick. It was TERRIBLE.

Never gotten kicked form a dungeon. Never.

I really think the problem is you. Either you play extremely poor or you do some pretty rude things. IE with chat and/or going afk for periods of time without letting anyone know.

Can't speak for the OP, but I'll state it again, I've never done anything wrong when I've been kicked.

Unless complaining to the CNJ in Halatali who was provoking mobs off me, or trying to prevent the healer in DD from being kicked because he wanted to complete the dungeon is wrong. I'm not a poor player either. And no. I did not do anything to warrant either action against me. When I joined the Halatali, he immediately started provoking. I dealt with it for at least half the time I was there without saying anything, hoping he'd stop on his own actually. Maybe that's why their first tank was mysteriously gone...dared to speak up against their griefing and paid for it.

Don't see anything wrong that Kaedrian did in their long list of reasons they've been kicked either.

If 2 people are in a premade and a disagreement or situation happens that they think you should be kicked for, you're going to be kicked regardless of whether or not you're right or wrong, and kicked without a majority vote at that. This is a problem.

Is there any "Warning" vote first before kick?

Party member can vote warning for some reason to you, then you know why they're mad or feel uneasy.
If still happen then Vote Kick can be trigger based on previous warning reason or that player can leave the instance because they know they caused the trouble.

I don't really see people kicking for unjust reasons, nor do I really ever get kicked myself. (tbh I don't think I have)

However I do have a tendency to avoid duty finder in general as it always makes me die a little inside. So that is probably why I don't see it often. 8)

I got kicked the other day >for the first time ever, in any game< in WP Hard because apparently I was tunneling the boss (not killing spears fast enough) --which is such garbage because I'd shoulder tackle over to spears off cool down and generally do all the mechanics as I always do.

Now the reason for the kick I assumed was because the spears did get out of hand and we started taking party-wide damage - at which time I popped Mantra REACTING to mechanics by offering extra healing potential - and still got called tunneling. The kicker - we STILL KILLED the boss, and I was kicked after the tank taunted me in /party by saying "Bye MNK. Don't need tunneling noobs in here"

So yes, what people say about party finder V2K being abused is completely true now that I've experienced it first hand. I reported the tank who abused this mechanic on me and hope that whatever GM handled the case saw that it was abused and at least spoke with him about why what he did was wrong.

But man I was pissed to be kicked from a boss I actively engaged in mechanically, when things went south and who we untimately killed-- none of which warrants a V2K.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

''Because right now it sounds like your wrecking yourself. ''
Ironic statement. Either you've not quite played as much as you would like to think, or you have been kicked quite a lot.
Then again, perhaps its the third option, considering your usage of the phrase ''wreck'':
*You are part of the problem, that's kicking others for no reason.

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OK... apparently that reference was too obscure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCY9L3Xidoo

Ice Cube
"Check Yourself"

As an addition to my previous reply.

Been here since beta, never got kicked and done too many dugeons to count XD I always find it suspect when someone is getting kicked enough from DF to justify making a forum post about it. If it seems that everyone else around is a jerk, then maybe it's you, not them. (Theres a phrase about that which I totally don't remember but I assume everyone gets the idea XD )

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

That you know of. Of course he's lying and cherry picking. You think he's going to tell you the part he kept at it for a solid 5 minutes swearing blindly? Or the part he went AFK until the dungeon went his way?

You have no way of knowing what goes on in that dungeon. And I'll tell you something. This wasn't a one-off with him. It's consistent. Is the problem the rest of the world or is it him?

Think on that one.

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Quoted that as seems a few ignored/didn't see it. Sounds like you have personal experience of dealing with the OP in dungeons ^_^

@Chevrefoil

It is NOT a bannable offence, since long, SE has said that vote kick is a matter between people and they dont want to mix into it UNLESS the kick happen when loot was not yet distributed, anything outside of it is none of their concern. I know it because I have been both on the victim side and the one that reported the abuses on third parties.


This conversation cant have a winner. People only see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe, asking them to believe something that either they have never experienced, or is outside of the frame of what they were told it can only be or because is cool to be in a party of friends to kick an outsider so to let another friend/FC member come into it, I have been in that situation I vote no, the guy was kicked, another healer came in from the FC I was into, I left both the party and the FC..to me is just unconceivable and wrong...but if you ask those that do so, is perfectly ok since they have no repercussions, understand sanctions, for misusing the tool. The perception of right and wrong differs depending on your background as well, we remain humans well technically, because when I see how people treat each other in this game I stopped believing humans are actually playing the game, but is more like animals.

Abuse in vote kick happens often, very often, denying this is totally silly as silly as saying that it is ALWAYS the fault of the one being kicked rather then the others initiating it, knowing that often then not you have the following happening

a) one person wants to kick the guy for his own reasons right or wrong doesnt matter
b) some agree
c) those that dont agree, still will vote yes, to not be the black sheep that refused the kick and forced the party to remain with that person
d) member of the same group even if they think no, they will press yes, you know solidarity
e) fear to be the next to be kicked, so better another then me..and they vote yes

maybe some of you recognize themselves into this list

Mei

Then why does it say vote kick for none of the above reasons (AFK/Offline/etc) can be a bannable offense in the pop up? Seems to me like they should take it out then. I thought it was being enforced and I'm sorry it's not.