Vote Kicked Players Need To Be Penalized

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Originally Posted by allecs

One of the many draw backs of these "party/dungeon finder" mmos. MMOs that almost completely rely on that feature will always have this problem.

Also, just a side question, what do a lot of people have against kicking players that want to be kicked? Especially DPS classes.

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there cannot be this or that class can be kicked more then another...is either you accept for everybody or nobody...speak of hypocrites

Mei

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Remember, with great power. comes great responsibility.

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enough said...

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

there cannot be this or that class can be kicked more then another...is either you accept for everybody or nobody...speak of hypocrites

Mei

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Wow, common sense must not be your strong trait.

DPS classes are replaced faster, since it's more dps classes than support classes. SO if a DPS is like "Hey kick me" why not? Especially since you'll get another faster. Healers and tanks is where I can sorta understand not wanting to kick them, since it's harder to replace them.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

As for the self-entitlement, yea it applies when the first 4 pages of this post can be summarized with one sentence:
"Wah wah, people want to leave, SE make them suffer!"

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You're on page 4 of the thread (the first 3 pages?). Did you actually read any of the previous posts. Out of the 36 previous to this I can count on one hand people that actually agree with the OP. Everyone else is pretty much saying it is not a good idea.

Just ignore the player. I mean if they are smart they will literaly afk for the 10 minutes it takes for the auto kick to boot them - not doing anything etc... Else report for harrasement and if they do try early pulls let them do them solo the rest can just wait the extra 20s it'll take them to die and then reset.

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what do a lot of people have against kicking players that want to be kicked?

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You commit to duty finder to finish the task at hand. If something real life comes up then you are free to leave whenever and the 30 minute penalty
is a non-issue for you. You do not get the privilege of being a brat that didn't get your loot and wants to avoid said penalty.

Stick it out or leave the moment you see someone else leave in any alliance. That's even more annoying. Half of one of the alliance is gone and
people still insisit on getting kicked. The moment you see the first finding new party members message is the moment you can leave without a penalty.

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When a party cant win, it shouldn't be a choice between: Bang my head on a wall or be punished for their failures

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This is what vote abandon is for. Or as said above the moment anyone leaves you are free to leave without a penalty.

And yes I stand behind my words. I have stuck out with groups until the timer ran out if they were commited to trying and learning the fights and actually listening to suggestions if needed.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

You commit to duty finder to finish the task at hand.

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I beg to differ, people join for all different reasons. I still don't see what the big issue is with kicking people that asked.
Is it a control thing? I mean technically in the end you're going to end up kicking them anyway if they decide to afk, spam emotes, early pulls etc.

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Originally Posted by allecs

Wow, common sense must not be your strong trait.

DPS classes are replaced faster, since it's more dps classes than support classes. SO if a DPS is like "Hey kick me" why not? Especially since you'll get another faster. Healers and tanks is where I can sorta understand not wanting to kick them, since it's harder to replace them.

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ergo why you are an hypocrite there cannot be two ways of doing it if you accept and see no problem in kicking a DPS that ask for it, equally there is no problem in doing the same for a healer or a tank...just because is harder to get a replacement should not be a criteria, both asked...

Common sense is fine with me, I do not use two rules for a same situation..you do

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

ergo why you are an hypocrite there cannot be two ways of doing it if you accept and see no problem in kicking a DPS that ask for it, equally there is no problem in doing the same for a healer or a tank...just because is harder to get a replacement should not be a criteria, both asked...

Common sense is fine with me, I do not use two rules for a same situation..you do

Mei

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You need to learn the definition of hypocrisy, I don't have two rules. I kick anyone who asks to be kicked. I said I can understand why other people might not kick a healer or tank. I play support classes and I RARELY asked to be kicked so no problems there.

Put all the loot on the final boss, that way everyone is forced to run the full thing otherwise you wont get anything

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

Put all the loot on the final boss, that way everyone is forced to run the full thing otherwise you wont get anything

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That would be funny, a troll move right back at them. Leave the loot till the end, if they pout in the corner and go AFK, leave them, finish the run (if possible). Then kick them right before or if you can after the final boss, dived up the loot, they get nothing and just stood there like an idiot for a long time.

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

Put all the loot on the final boss, that way everyone is forced to run the full thing otherwise you wont get anything

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I really don't see anything wrong with that. In a lot of other MMOs most of the time the really good loot is at the final boss.

The real problem is the vote kick system itself. There are two main problems:

1. A player can use the system to be voluntarily kicked (to not eat the time lockout penalty) and skip dungeons or boss fights that don't want to participate or go to a specific boss.

2. A player can be kicked only to open space to a friend of others party members, allowing to enter dungeons/raids middle run.

The system cannot discern between case 1 and 2 or the if the kick was legitimate (afk, harassment, etc)

To harsh the kick punishment will be good against problem 1 (and legitimate kicks) but will be unfair against players victims of problem number 2 (and increase the chance of abuse and harassment)

So, what this solution? My two cents:

1. Prevent the player to rejoin the same party.

2. If the player was kicked more than 3 times in short time (3 kicks in a 2-hour period, for example), give him/her a time lockout penalty for that instance.

Note that suggestion 2 only works with suggestion 1.


Let's look the two problems according with these suggestions:

1. If a player queue up only intending to go to a specific boss (WOD/CT/ST) there is no problem to kick him. He can't rejoin the same party and after 3 kicks he can't queue to that instance for 30 minutes.

2. If a player was unfairly kicked, the won't join to the same party. And I don't know cases where a player was unfairly kicked 3 times in-a-row in just 2 two hours.

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Originally Posted by AckersFury

Put all the loot on the final boss, that way everyone is forced to run the full thing otherwise you wont get anything

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Not a bad idea in theory, but imagine the situation:

"We're about to fight the last boss. Quick! Kick the DPS (he/she isn't a member of FC)! Invite your friend!"

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Originally Posted by allecs

I beg to differ, people join for all different reasons. I still don't see what the big issue is with kicking people that asked.
Is it a control thing? I mean technically in the end you're going to end up kicking them anyway if they decide to afk, spam emotes, early pulls etc.

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You get 1 kick every 4h. I won't waste it on the bratty arse for being a nuisance when I can use it on someone that is an actual toxic harraser. And no not control. Couldn't care less. And as said. There is a 10 minute auto afk kick in duties - go afk and walk away don't type or move or dance etc.... just stand still - most annoying thing when premades are involved and someone needs to step away for a while - especially since premades don't offer a replacement mechanism mid duty.

And yes you are entitled to your opinion on joining for different reasons. But then join with a full made 4/8/24 man if you wish to drop out at certain stages. You are using a cross server duty finder system. As far as I'm concerned the moment you select accept in the popup you commit yourself to that duty for the duration - if you made a mistake drop out problem solved, if you don't get what you want drop out. That choice is yours alone not others to make.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Limit

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Didn't know you could only kick once every 4hs. Gesh, I can understand SE trying to prevent abuse but wow! Well, that makes a ton of sense now.

Is the 4h cool down per person or for everyone in that party?

For every thread in which someone complains about the lack of a vote kick penalty, there will be one with people complaining about getting votekicked for an unfair reason or stacks of manchildren who queue together and find it funny to "casually" penalize a weak link in their group.

My suggestion (just to discuss, since SE won't read this, lol).

Make a video recorder option, just like print screen option, but instead of storing it in your computer, you can ONLY send it through ingame ticket like a proof.
You will vote kick someone for afk? Ok. Record 20 secs of player afk (or running against a wall, pulling mobs, etc) and send it. Player should be judged for gms.

Video should be in automatic low fps for quick upload.
Plus, add a kind of "Are you a robot? Type "AHT367"" prior to video record, so video recording can't be used for ddoss.

Yeah, lot of works for GMs, so hire more Gms. :D

That's a horrible idea

not really a bad idea ...just hard to implement and as it is today totally useless since SE doesnt care about who you boot and why. So mute point.

Mei

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Originally Posted by allecs

Didn't know you could only kick once every 4hs. Gesh, I can understand SE trying to prevent abuse but wow! Well, that makes a ton of sense now.

Is the 4h cool down per person or for everyone in that party?

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It's per person so one kicks and gets that cooldown. But yes I have been in duties where everyone already had used up their kicks and in the end had to drop due to toxicity. Though I can say those days are rare now.

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Originally Posted by allecs

Also, just a side question, what do a lot of people have against kicking players that want to be kicked?

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It's because, by doing what they want, you're effectively rewarding them for being a jerk and deliberately ruining everyone else's run.

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Originally Posted by allecs

I beg to differ, people join for all different reasons.

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Sure, they join for all sorts of reasons, but by joining a group of other players, they're committing to completing what all those other players need as well. That's how cooperative games work. They've made a commitment, used everyone else's help to complete their own personal goal, and then want to just blow off their responsibility to those other players and leave everyone high and dry.

If you want to do a run only up to the first boss, you need to either set up a fully pre-made party where that's what everyone else wants (or at least what they'll agree to) or else suck it up and do what the whole group needs. Behavior like the OP described is equivalent to agreeing to a trade, taking the item you were offered, and then refusing to pay for it or give the item you'd offered in exchange.

I don't disagree with the problem you are trying to solve, and I agree something should be done. However, as long as it is possible for 3 people to gang up on an innocent player I'll have to say 60 minutes is unrealistic. The same timer you get for abandoning would be adequate.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

And nothing could ever possibly go wrong with this plan, could it?

Parties of 4+ could simply boot a random innocent player just cuz and now that person is in timeout?

Yeah.. that ain't gonna happen.

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Agreed nothing good will come from penalizing people who are kicked with a wait timer just needs to be fixed so they can't rejoin the same group or party.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Worst idea ever. Vote kick abuse happens way to often for players to assign a penalty on other players. If players want to AFK or troll to demand vote kick in WoD and the like, report them to the GM and let the GM assign them the penalty.

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someone afk in WoD to be kicked? just keep going, if he's afk and a piece of gear nobody want drop he lose his weekly loot.

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Originally Posted by Coldheart

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1. Prevent the player to rejoin the same party.

2. If the player was kicked more than 3 times in short time (3 kicks in a 2-hour period, for example), give him/her a time lockout penalty for that instance.

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Coldheart has the right solution.

Locking kicked players eliminates the rejoin trolling problem completely. If you have been unfairly kicked, why would you want to rejoin anyway?

Getting kicked X times in Y timeframe means YOU are doing something to warrant being kicked and deserve the penalty. If done with the first action (can't rejoin parties), then you can't be trolled into this penalty.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

In order for this to be viable, SE would first have to start enforcing their rules regarding the reasons for a vote kick. You shouldn't be able to select AFK or Disconnected unless the player actually is AFK or disconnected, and selecting Harassment should require a GM review, one in which somebody must always be punished, either the kicked player (if the GM determines that the reported harassment actually took place) or the players who kicked them (if it's determined it hadn't, in which case the kick itself is harassment).

So far, SE has shown no willingness to enforce their rules. As long as that remains the case, there's no correlation between who was kicked and who was doing the harassing. The proposed rule change would punish the victim as often as the perpetrator.

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agreed 100% this

Then I propose we should get rid of the 30 minute penalty for leaving an instance, so that these people will no longer afk and burden other players?