Gil Toss Ability to drain gil out of the economy?

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

Something I would spend millions on if SE let me, is housing. I wanna slowly build up my house to be huge! Let me upgrade the size and things and I'll pay a fortune! I'll save up for it. lol And then once it's done, I'll spend on decorating it! XD
That's just one idea though. I hope housing is very customizable (especially in size) and very expensive.
Not just housing though! I still want ships! It should be very expensive to build ships. X3

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now if this was the thread starter it would have alot more support by the people with millions of gil. this is something i would spend millions on myself building up.

what i would not do is spend 10's of millions worth of gil into a chance of getting an item by giving gil away to get a piece of gear that is not vastly superior to anything i have.

btw @ the economist please tell me you didn't really say 3000 million did you?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

lets say 3000 million.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

1. I'm nowhere near poor.
2. I'm an economist irl
3. At the moment the FFXIV economy will not function properly at PS3 release due to some people holding on to 100's of mil. If that gil is not drained prior to the PS3 release the games economy will fall apart quickly. This happened in FFXI due to similar reasons as a result of Rusty Cap Fish-botting.
4. What I proposed here is basic economic incentive-based policy. The policy creates an incentive for capable individuals to pool gil from across the server into their personal hands and then depost that gil into a gil sink to remove it from the economy. It's not magic, it's not revolutionary. It's quite simple.
edit 5: This does not make rich people "poorer", it just converts their gil into an item. A possibility would be to make those items trade-able so that they actually retain their value.

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Thank goodness Economists aren't Game Developers then. The idea of using a 'deft touch in game design' apparently didn't occur to you.

I'd say its not the people charging 5k for a 'Gucci' bag that are brilliant Economists but rather excellent showmen who know how to sell cheap products at high prices to unbelievably stupid people. I know a place near my house that charges clients 4 thousand dollars to 'cleanse their soul and renew their Chi'. All these businesses are doing is preying on gullible or vain idiots.

There are a number of gil sinks in game right now, and we'll be seeing more with the incoming Airships and Chocobos. Consider that right now, Market Wards and bazaar sales take out 5 to 10% of any transaction as is. Darkmatter sales are a pure gil sink and the repair NPC continues to gouge anyone to anti-social to hook up with a crafter.

Really the issue right now are the botters running 8 characters through leves and making about 300k a run (on the higher rank ones anyways). I've picked up a good 3-4 screenshots of Botters doing just that today. That reminds me, I need to go drop some STF reports before I log out for the night. They are starting to inject more money into the economy than the gil sinks were meant to handle. As we get more and more players to move around this money and hoard it, the value of gil will continue to drop, jacking up prices on gear and player services considerably.

Those in on the game won't be hurt to badly, but its new players who will suffer from being out of the loop with a steep curve to climb. (we can at least expect to see with the PS3 and possible XBox360 launch if history continues to repeat itself)

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

now if this was the thread starter it would have alot more support by the people with millions of gil. this is something i would spend millions on myself building up.

what i would not do is spend 10's of millions worth of gil into a chance of getting an item by giving gil away to get a piece of gear that is not vastly superior to anything i have.

btw @ the economist please tell me you didn't really say 3000 million did you?

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said 3000 million to make it sound as simple as possible. That's something even non-mathematicians can visualize in their head.

And I suggested the peice of gear -be- the most superior peice in that slot (ex, best DD Helm in game) and SE states that it will remain essentially the best for 2 years. SO for example, a Byakko Haidate or a Peacock Charm if going by FFXI examples.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

Thank goodness Economists aren't Game Developers then. The idea of using a 'deft touch in game design' apparently didn't occur to you.

I'd say its not the people charging 5k for a 'Gucci' bag that are brilliant Economists but rather excellent showmen who know how to sell cheap products at high prices to unbelievably stupid people. I know a place near my house that charges clients 4 thousand dollars to 'cleanse their soul and renew their Chi'. All these businesses are doing is preying on gullible or vain idiots.

There are a number of gil sinks in game right now, and we'll be seeing more with the incoming Airships and Chocobos. Consider that right now, Market Wards and bazaar sales take out 5 to 10% of any transaction as is. Darkmatter sales are a pure gil sink and the repair NPC continues to gouge anyone to anti-social to hook up with a crafter.

Really the issue right now are the botters running 8 characters through leves and making about 300k a run (on the higher rank ones anyways). I've picked up a good 3-4 screenshots of Botters doing just that today. That reminds me, I need to go drop some STF reports before I log out for the night. They are starting to inject more money into the economy than the gil sinks were meant to handle. As we get more and more players to move around this money and hoard it, the value of gil will continue to drop, jacking up prices on gear and player services considerably.

Those in on the game won't be hurt to badly, but its new players who will suffer from being out of the loop with a steep curve to climb. (we can at least expect to see with the PS3 and possible XBox360 launch if history continues to repeat itself)

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you can't say that people are being preyed on or idiots for making certain purchases. Sure marketing plays a big role, but everything comes down to what economists like to call Utility. You can think of utility as happiness points.
If you have $5000 you want to spend it in order to maximize your utility / happiness points.
If spending it on cleansing your soul with chi does that, then the service is legitimate. However you have to look at the opportunity cost of spending the $5000 on a cleansing. For example, maybe if you spent the $5000 on soliciting 'entertainment' instead, you may be happier.

If someone spends 50mil in game, gets an epic helmet that looks cool and is better than any other helmet in the game for a considerable period, and they are happy they got it. Then its beneficial both to the player and to the games economy.

The gil sinks in the game currently are no-where near enough to counteract the gil in existence. The best it is doing is balancing the current amount of gil in the economy.

And its marketing, not sales-people or showmen (IN GENERAL) that determine if a product is a success or not. And that ties directly into neuro-economics. If you know what makes humans happy (btw, scientifically proven that genetically we are interested in relative not absolute gains, meaning we want to have more or better stuff than others) then you can market a product well. A Gucci bag isnt about the bag, its about the status associated with the bag.

edit: Much like the status associated with e-peen gear in game.

I don't want all the RMT having better gear than I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlA9bNk3b5Q

I don't think players should be awarded for being rich. Being rich in itself is enough reward. Unless it's something that doesn't bother the rest of the economy like fashion stuff for player housing or something.

Just make us pay 100k gil to fly the airships. Here's my prediction: paying rent for "mog" houses. It'll come, you'll see

Theres no real need for a gil toss. They just need to lower gil rewards for... leves,quests,behest,missons.

They already added adjustments to these yes but we dont have hard enough obtainble items to spend our cash for.

Good way is getting crafters to buy materials and focus on +3 HQ crafting. Make NQ equipment none wanting. Another way for a gil sink is ban rmts. Rmts have control of most of the gil in the world. Removing large amount of rmt would remore like 900 bil gil.

There once was a large server ban on FFXI that removed 200 bil gil from all worlds. Since FFXI gil is harder to obtain its quite alot.

After that all items went lower in price but alot of gil from the servers wasnt in flow anymore. Square Enix should start tracking playes that been playing for more then 20-24hrs in a day for starters and accounts with 3-7 charcters.

Also another good thing is adding Reatainer Tax and once AH is in place start taxing items being placed within the AH. Something like a 30% gil tax based on the asking price of the item.

They Should Remove some... Market Locations within all citys and replace them with a AH. Mainly away from Leve Shop.

Wow Azury you really made a whole thread off my comment.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post305899

Anyways, there will be a gil sink.
Chocobo rentals, airship tickets, and right now more people are actually using the NPC repair.

I think a lot of people are failing to connect the dots here.

This is nothing new.

FFXI had HNM shells selling HNM drops for large amounts of gil. Those who didn't want to do HMNs but wanted a ridill could farm 20mil and purchase one.

FFXI proves people would be willing to pay the gil.
All this does it take out the middle man, instead of paying an HNM shell to farm you a really rare drop, you offer to use your gil to win a raid (which can get them other items).

The raid can still be done without gil, so endgame shells can still raid for the item.
Those who are rich can spend some of the gil they have to get the item faster so they don't have to waste time raiding
People who want the item but think 10 ppl will get it before them can farm or craft or do some kind of economic activity to make gil and then spend that to get a -chance- at the item.

So -everyone- wins. If you're a raider you have a chance, if you have lots of gil you have a chance, if you don't get to play often but can save up a lot you have a chance.
The economy wins because people create more economic activity to get the gil to have a chance.
And the economy wins because gil is drained from the game.

once more
-PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO PAY FOR ELITE GEAR IN FFXI-
so why wouldn't they be here?

Developers aren't going to waste time coding in an ability that has no "lasting" value.

I don't consider myself the richest, nor do I consider myself poor. I'm sitting on more then 50m and I would not waste 1 gil on that ability if my some miraculous chance they added it. Well okay 1 gil just to see the animation but thats it!

There is a reason, I raid. Right now, end game content requires 8 people. Not a whole lot required there. Sure this may open up in the future but fact of the matter is the rich ones are people who stuck with this game from the beginning are most likely already in some kind of end game linkshell already.

I can guarantee you those rich people are spending money raising crafts and other classes. I can guarantee you that some will be saving for the inevitable ultimate weapon (ala XI's relic weapon) introduction. I can also guarantee you that <1% (if not 0%) of individuals with more then 20m+ would rather spend on tangible things (perhaps as you even suggested, buying drops from linkshells) as opposed to throwing gil.

It might work in an offline world where money can be easily farmed due to intentional farming spots left by the devs, but since XIV's gil supply has been reigned in, the grip on my gil wallet has tightened in response. Like some posters said, the devs need to create a tangible method of removing gil from the economy. Some excellent suggestions that have been made here is using it in your "mog house". Heck, if you recall they are introducing gear for chocobos (in 1.20 I believe) which will be another way to drain some gil from the economy.

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Originally Posted by Darte

Developers aren't going to waste time coding in an ability that has no "lasting" value.

I don't consider myself the richest, nor do I consider myself poor. I'm sitting on more then 50m and I would not waste 1 gil on that ability if my some miraculous chance they added it. Well okay 1 gil just to see the animation but thats it!

There is a reason, I raid. Right now, end game content requires 8 people. Not a whole lot required there. Sure this may open up in the future but fact of the matter is the rich ones are people who stuck with this game from the beginning are most likely already in some kind of end game linkshell already.

I can guarantee you those rich people are spending money raising crafts and other classes. I can guarantee you that some will be saving for the inevitable ultimate weapon (ala XI's relic weapon) introduction. I can also guarantee you that <1% (if not 0%) of individuals with more then 20m+ would rather spend on tangible things (perhaps as you even suggested, buying drops from linkshells) as opposed to throwing gil.

It might work in an offline world where money can be easily farmed due to intentional farming spots left by the devs, but since XIV's gil supply has been reigned in, the grip on my gil wallet has tightened in response. Like some posters said, the devs need to create a tangible method of removing gil from the economy. Some excellent suggestions that have been made here is using it in your "mog house". Heck, if you recall they are introducing gear for chocobos (in 1.20 I believe) which will be another way to drain some gil from the economy.

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this doesn't require rich people to be the ones spending the gil. Normal people who don't necessarily have lots of gil might farm more items or gather more goods BENEFITING the economy to make the gil to try to get this item with. I've said it so many times in this thread. it is -NOT- about making the rich poorer. NORMAL PEOPLE CAN DO IT TOO.

Again, if people were willing to do it in FFXI why wouldn't they do it here?

Would make some NM so insanely easy with that 1/10 ratio
You could kill the Great Buffalo in one hit by throwing 330k~ at it...
Though that being said I would like some form of a gil sink.

People were willing to pay good amount for gears in XI because if you are in LS that doesn't bot, you will be lucky to have Dalmatica in 3 months or so. No NMs pop once every 24hour here with shitton of competition and this game is clearly not going to that direction.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

this doesn't require rich people to be the ones spending the gil. Normal people who don't necessarily have lots of gil might farm more items or gather more goods BENEFITING the economy to make the gil to try to get this item with. I've said it so many times in this thread. it is -NOT- about making the rich poorer. NORMAL PEOPLE CAN DO IT TOO.

Again, if people were willing to do it in FFXI why wouldn't they do it here?

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Normal people would be the least likely to use this ability.

Instead of farming to make the money to use that ability to make 1 NM easy, they could use that cash and purchase items from linkshells who already have a NM or endgame content items up for sale, like FFXI with ridills and what not. It makes no sense for someone to throw down several million for a chance at an item that may or may not drop. FFXI item sales only worked when there was a confirmed drop of an item and a buyer was willing with the cash on hand right then and there.

I can tell you, only a fool is willing to throw millions for a chance at an item. Thats not how player logic works.

/begin drywit

A quick look at the Dow Jones will show you why being poor will add to the immersion of Americans.

/end drywit

/sip martini

Why not just fill a swimming pool with all that gil?

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Just make us pay 100k gil to fly the airships. Here's my prediction: paying rent for "mog" houses. It'll come, you'll see

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Now it'd be funny if you can't pay rent one month/week/whatever and get booted. XD
Interesting idea. I'd rather own my house though. hehe.

I would gladly buy darkhold/nm gear if it weren't unique and untradeable... Let me spend my gill and let people who are willing to do multiple runs make a profit from it!

lmao @ Gil Toss

Kudos to you!

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Originally Posted by Colino

I would gladly buy darkhold/nm gear if it weren't unique and untradeable... Let me spend my gill and let people who are willing to do multiple runs make a profit from it!

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You can pay someone else to do it for you, just you need to go along with them, and essentially leech the drops.

While I always liked gil toos in games... I think I cna explain why this would be bad in a single sentence.

RMT's WOULD BE GODS!

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Originally Posted by Darte

It makes no sense for someone to throw down several million for a chance at an item that may or may not drop.

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I don't think it necessarily HAS to be millions. O.o But... didn't people basically do this in XI already? Buying fairly expensive pop-sets for tough NMs which may or may not drop the item they want, could also be considered "throwing money at a chance at an item."
For Azury's idea there could be a min and max amount of gil allowed for the ability. I don't think anyone said it has to be insanely high.

its easy for ppl who have no money to talk about spending money.

funny idea but no thanks.

Ill sit on my millions and wait for something worthwhile to come come along

Just need more gil sinks. This isn't a sink, it's a waste.

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Originally Posted by Thanos

its easy for ppl who have no money to talk about spending money.

funny idea but no thanks.

Ill sit on my millions and wait for something worthwhile to come come along

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The ironic thing is Azury was saying it'd be pretty epic items. :x But if you don't consider that worthwhile.. well I guess everyone differs in opinion. lol ^^

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

The ironic thing is Azury was saying it'd be pretty epic items. :x But if you don't consider that worthwhile.. well I guess everyone differs in opinion. lol ^^

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I rather sit on my money and wait for something that cost a insane amount of money that everyone wants.. that appeals to me.. ill buy it just for show LOL

Thought there was already a gil toss ability in the game..? It's called Repairs.

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

I don't think it necessarily HAS to be millions. O.o But... didn't people basically do this in XI already? Buying fairly expensive pop-sets for tough NMs which may or may not drop the item they want, could also be considered "throwing money at a chance at an item."
For Azury's idea there could be a min and max amount of gil allowed for the ability. I don't think anyone said it has to be insanely high.

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exactly this.
nothing ive suggested here is really new. I just took a concept from FFXI and improved it slightly and then presented it in a creative way.

To each their own, seriously. Funny ppl seem to argue whether or not they'd hurl their hard earned gil at a monster when it's just a suggestion. Some ppl would, some ppl wouldn't, don't need to have a conclusion to that do we ? lol

Put the option there, use it if you feel it's worth or call it a last resort kinda act - you're a frail mage and tank just went down, the boss monster hanging on it's sliver of health, and he's lunging at you and the most you'd survive is 2 hits. Casting big enough a spell would also mean possibly getting interrupted, but HEY you're a RICH crafter! Select throw gil and it will instantly throw a couple of million at it to make sure it's dead. It's just an option (Just a sample scenario so refrain from coming up with 'intelligent' ideas how to get out of it).

Reminded me of Ragnarok Online - a Blacksmith spending MILLIONS each session castle fight using "Mammonite". I can never understand that kind of spending, when there are other skills they could use.... but he earned lots of respect for sure.

I am really really interested however how's SE going to balance this out with PS3 players. Too big of a gil sink, PS3 players would end up getting poorer each day, while PC players around this time got so much accumulated it'd last them for another few years....

I commend your efforts but I think it is a bad idea, slipper slope that in my humble opinion.

A gil sink is required though, but perhaps a slightly different angle would work better.

*goes away to think about possible alternatives*

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Originally Posted by Thanos

its easy for ppl who have no money to talk about spending money.

funny idea but no thanks.

Ill sit on my millions and wait for something worthwhile to come come along

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This thread is eerily starting to remind me of real life.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

No, I know this because I have over 200mil.

And im not going to throw the shit at a monster when I could just kill it instead.

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don't lie. you said most of that is your ls bank!

Adding something similar to relics would be a pretty effective gil-sink, although that would probably get a lot of hate from anti-ffxi2 people.

I think I read somewhere they plan on having one of the new transportation methods cost a lot (I think it was the airship). This will be a start, but hopefully at some point they'll give us some kind of awesome droppable/tradeable rare item that you turn into a vendor to get a piece of gear (like a relic). People will buy that crap like crazy, especially with how rich some people are.

Well, I can't say that I would use that ability but it DOES seems that a lot of people have tons of gil.
I mean, yesterday I was looking at some shops in the market wards and some items where being sold for like 9,999,999,999 or something and I was like "Does people really have that amount of gil to buy that stuff? I only have like 20,000 gil! o.O"

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Originally Posted by Ava

I think I read somewhere they plan on having one of the new transportation methods cost a lot (I think it was the airship).

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The only answer from Yoshi-P we've got about airship costs is "huhuhu," which some people interpret to be evil laughter.

And people who put items on their bazaar for 999,999,999 are either using the bazaar slot as storage space or they're decorating their retainer and don't want you to buy the item.

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Originally Posted by Aerycat

To each their own, seriously. Funny ppl seem to argue whether or not they'd hurl their hard earned gil at a monster when it's just a suggestion. Some ppl would, some ppl wouldn't, don't need to have a conclusion to that do we ? lol

Put the option there, use it if you feel it's worth or call it a last resort kinda act - you're a frail mage and tank just went down, the boss monster hanging on it's sliver of health, and he's lunging at you and the most you'd survive is 2 hits. Casting big enough a spell would also mean possibly getting interrupted, but HEY you're a RICH crafter! Select throw gil and it will instantly throw a couple of million at it to make sure it's dead. It's just an option (Just a sample scenario so refrain from coming up with 'intelligent' ideas how to get out of it).

Reminded me of Ragnarok Online - a Blacksmith spending MILLIONS each session castle fight using "Mammonite". I can never understand that kind of spending, when there are other skills they could use.... but he earned lots of respect for sure.

I am really really interested however how's SE going to balance this out with PS3 players. Too big of a gil sink, PS3 players would end up getting poorer each day, while PC players around this time got so much accumulated it'd last them for another few years....

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Youd have less respect for those rare blacksmiths when you realised that every single one had dozens if not hundreds of millions.
Ofc in Ragnarok Online the skill itself only costed 1k to use, so when youve got a few dozen millions spending a few hundred k's twice a week isnt much of a big deal.

Love it. This is the best suggestion I've seen in awhile. =P
This would be a fun flavor ability to add, but would never work to the suggested end.
Most people who have ridiculous amounts of gil acquired it for the purpose of having it.

The brainless grind-monkeys believe such things demonstrate how "good" they are at the game.
They would never sacrifice it for the sake of flavor or fun. They seek only ways to "prove" how
much better they are than everyone else, and grinding/buying gil is the easiest way to do that.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Now that leve gil-rewards have been significantly reduced it is difficult to make large amounts of gil.

However there is still -lots- of gil floating around and no real gil sinks.

So how about a gil-toss ability that does 1/10th damage of the gil thrown.

Then have "quick runs" as a requirement for some items on raids. So basically the super-rich or the giant linkshell-banks can spend their gil to kill off bosses insanely fast for quick-run victories.

Basically use gil-toss as a way to drain the economy of gil. At some point it would become fairly useless because enough gil would be taken out of the economy to make the gil vs damage ratio not worth it.

Your thoughts?

edit: please read this before you try to argue no one would spend gil.
I think a lot of people are failing to connect the dots here.

This is nothing new.

FFXI had HNM shells selling HNM drops for large amounts of gil. Those who didn't want to do HNMs but wanted a ridill could farm 20mil and purchase one.

FFXI proves people would be willing to pay the gil.
All this does it take out the middle man, instead of paying an HNM shell to farm you a really rare drop, you offer to use your gil to win a raid (which can get them other items).

The raid can still be done without gil, so endgame shells can still raid for the item.
Those who are rich can spend some of the gil they have to get the item faster so they don't have to waste time raiding
People who want the item but think 10 ppl will get it before them can farm or craft or do some kind of economic activity to make gil and then spend that to get a -chance- at the item.

So -everyone- wins. If you're a raider you have a chance, if you have lots of gil you have a chance, if you don't get to play often but can save up a lot you have a chance.
The economy wins because people create more economic activity to get the gil to have a chance.
And the economy wins because gil is drained from the game.

once more
-PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO PAY FOR ELITE GEAR IN FFXI-
so why wouldn't they be here?

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who cares about gil right now, when the game has something to offer then worry about it

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

you can't say that people are being preyed on or idiots for making certain purchases. Sure marketing plays a big role, but everything comes down to what economists like to call Utility. You can think of utility as happiness points.
If you have $5000 you want to spend it in order to maximize your utility / happiness points.
If spending it on cleansing your soul with chi does that, then the service is legitimate. However you have to look at the opportunity cost of spending the $5000 on a cleansing. For example, maybe if you spent the $5000 on soliciting 'entertainment' instead, you may be happier.

If someone spends 50mil in game, gets an epic helmet that looks cool and is better than any other helmet in the game for a considerable period, and they are happy they got it. Then its beneficial both to the player and to the games economy.

The gil sinks in the game currently are no-where near enough to counteract the gil in existence. The best it is doing is balancing the current amount of gil in the economy.

And its marketing, not sales-people or showmen (IN GENERAL) that determine if a product is a success or not. And that ties directly into neuro-economics. If you know what makes humans happy (btw, scientifically proven that genetically we are interested in relative not absolute gains, meaning we want to have more or better stuff than others) then you can market a product well. A Gucci bag isnt about the bag, its about the status associated with the bag.

edit: Much like the status associated with e-peen gear in game.

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My opinion of people throwing away money on garbage still stands. If you need to pay for status or spiritual freedom, there are better ways to go about it.

Go back and read the rest of my post because I already brought up the reason as to WHERE this massive influx of cash is likely coming from.

The number of botters and multi-boxers running around exploiting the present system of leve rewards has been rising steadily over the past couple weeks, from being an uncommon sighting to the present common occurrence.

Whats more, insane prices like your aforementioned 20million gil HNM drops is a serious symptom of poorly balanced gil sinks to gil adds, one of the contributing factors on why the economy was messed up in FFXI. Where is any single person going to farm that sort of money without a MASSIVE over dedication in time? There IS A REASON RMT ARE SUCCESSFUL. Why spend weeks of your time when you could just pay off some internet creep to give it to you after they hoarded it doing what ever TOS violating operation they run; be it botters, underpaid GIL farmers or multi-boxing to exploit rewards. Its crap like that 20million HNM drop that encourages it and makes such a business successful.

What is needed? Tweaks to existing gil sinks, more gil sinks which are REASONABLE and do not encourage large lump sums of gil. 100 gil here, 1000 there... Balance it against the frequency that players gain gil against the frequency these gil sinks are used, allowing for some accumulation of wealth (the rate of which is dependent on how much money has to be expended).

How this system is balanced dictates the amount of effort a player needs to invest to afford what they want. Raise the difficulty too say... the ridiculous difficulty of early FFXI and you make it too tempting and easy too just pay someone else too do it for you. Make it too easy and the value of money just becomes irrelevant after a certain point (such as in WOW where once you start raking in thousands of gil NPCing off greys or what have you, there is very little left to do with it other than just pass it around. There is a reason Blizzard started to add random junk like pets and novelty items costing hundreds of gold, there isn't much else they can add without making the barrier to entry to high for some via classic gil sinks)

The point is, take too heavy handed and over zealous an approach to this problem and you have the same stupid mistakes we've seen in the past such as our lack of a decent way to exchange goods. Boy, that sure shut down the RMT didn't it? Pay no attention to the 16 lalafell running by with vowel-less names and eerily mechanical movements folks.

Your solution is the equivalent of a nuke where a scalpel is needed.