Viability of a Spell Speed WHM set up?

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Originally Posted by Talia_Hailwind

Good job I ain't one then eh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReLGCvFWv5o

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Now I see why you were so upset; you thought I was addressing you directly. I wasn't, but your response was still worth it.

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Originally Posted by Talia_Hailwind

Good job I ain't one then eh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReLGCvFWv5o

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It's probably a bait, but I'll humour you :P

Phase 1
No virus on first crit rip or first wild charge
Adloquium too late on OT for first wild charge
No succor for first wild charge
Not utilising Eos abilities when you could for the first wild charge
Prey was on the white mage for a whole 3 seconds before adloquium was applied
A ton of idle time, which could have been spend contributing off DPSing

Phase 2
White Mage had stoneskin up on both prey targets. Your Adloquium wasn't applied till 3 seconds have already passed
Took a while before you filled your idle time to off-DPS. When you did start to off-DPS you had no cleric stance up

Phase 3
Late to get in line for the charge. Good thing for your group the rest were
Lustrate on MT who had full HP
Average reaction time on preys 2-3 seconds, which is fairly slow
Succor late to protect group for wild charge
Not using fairy abilities again

I deemed the video not worth watching any more at this point

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Critiques

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So sub-optimal play ended up leading to a victory anyway? Guess we'd better start sending petitions to SE, because the game's obviously too easy.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

Until they add Piety to every single piece of casting gear in the game (of level to have it) and consequently remove it as an option in relic customization, it's a secondary stat. Just an odd one that you can dump a free +30 into as you level up.

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Oh, okay. What's going on here is that we're operating on different definitions of what different stats are. Here's how I look at the whole picture, for an exact reference.

Main Stat: The stat deemed most important for a particular role. This is illustrated by the stat being present on every piece of gear intended for that role, ie. that role can Need roll on it if it drops in a dungeon.
Tanks: VIT
Healers: MND
Casters: INT
Melee: STR
Ranged/NIN: DEX

Damage Stat: The stat which primarily determines a job's skill potency. The only jobs which have separated Main and Damage Stats are Tanks.
Tanks/Melee: STR
Healers: MND
Casters: INT
Ranged/NIN: DEX

Primary Stat: The subset of stats important enough to roles who use them that not having enough of them will prevent the completion of content.
All Main and Damage Stats, for obvious reasons.
Piety: Not having enough MP leads to being out of MP which leads to death.
Accuracy: Not having enough accuracy leads to misses which leads to not enough DPS.

Secondary Stat: Stats which allow players to nudge their own playstyles in particular directions. While there are combinations which produce superior results over others, they will not make or break one's ability to complete content.
Determination
Critical Hit Rate
Skill Speed
Spell Speed

I have 600 base spell speed before food, and I'm proud of it. Why, because I like being mobile and responsive. Stoneskin, Raise, Esuna, and the like benefit from Spell Speed until Determination and Critical, it effects *every* spell you cast. Not to mention you can slide cast and get out of the fire/plumes and still get your heal off. Not to mention it helps with DPSing during mass pulls in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

Except, y'know, having enough Piety to comfortably heal for many minutes of constant fighting, or a Scholar's unchallenged need for Crit rate...

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When I was minimum iLv for Snowcloak when it first released, I spammed Divine Seal and Shroud. Kept me on my toes, but some people wouldn't know I was low iLv at the time until they examined me lol...

Personally, though, I love Determination. I choose it as a main secondary when I can. Spell Speed is next. I love moments when I'm casting, need to move, and cure still trigger.

It depends on your party make up, and what you primarily like doing.

SS as a WHM who does alot of DPS is handy, but then again so is DET.
SS as a WHM who does the bulk of healing, imo SS is useless. Any benefit from it can be off-set with being observant, reaction time, and pre-emptive healing so you might as well make those heals bigger.

Get some gear which is equal in quality and try both the builds out imo.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

So sub-optimal play ended up leading to a victory anyway? Guess we'd better start sending petitions to SE, because the game's obviously too easy.

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There's a difference between playing sub-optimal and being a liability. If you actually read the list, you would have noticed there are mechanic derps in there as well, not just class aspects.

And yes, the game is actually easy. Simply because every "hard" content is heavily mechanic based that is also scripted. It even gets significantly easier the more gear the group gets as it makes the incoming- and outgoing damage more forgiving (DPS checks) and eases up the healing game. But liabilities in a static group would stagger the progress, gear or no gear. It's not exactly fair towards others either by playing it half-assed (and possibly causing wipes) while others are giving it their all.

inb4 "why are you playing this if it's so easy": A game doesn't have to be hard to be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Personally, though, I love Determination. I choose it as a main secondary when I can. Spell Speed is next. I love moments when I'm casting, need to move, and cure still trigger.

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You don't need spell speed for this to happen

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I deemed the video not worth watching any more at this point

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I will admit I didn't dps as much as I should have, but this footage is 3 days after I hit 50 with my SCH when the group asked me to level to help fill a spot for them.
In the end, its downed and if your point is we're all meant to be soulless robots and not make any mistakes, then you guys are elitists like I said, I'd rather play a game for fun thanks.

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Originally Posted by Talia_Hailwind

I will admit I didn't dps as much as I should have, but this footage is 3 days after I hit 50 with my SCH when the group asked me to level to help fill a spot for them.
In the end, its downed and if your point is we're all meant to be soulless robots and not make any mistakes, then you guys are elitists like I said, I'd rather play a game for fun thanks.

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I made a claim about scrubby healers, you responded with a video that you seemingly are proud of and trying to prove you're not one of the scrubby healers. Now you're defending yourself about inexperience and whatnot, attacking on one's persona. So what is it?

Instead of jumping into the defensive chair and acting like a disney princess dodging responsibility, you could have considered it as a feedback. Rather than responding "Oh I'm inexperienced and you're some elitist bastard". What makes me an elitist as you say? I don't recall bragging anywhere about having X done or Y cleared before A group or B server. And here you are: Posting a T10 video that "you're not one of them". "Them" being the scrubby healers.

People come to the forums - healers in general in this section - for information. If it makes me an elitist for sharing elaborated information that a inquiring mind might find useful or true. Then yes, I guess I am an elitist.

lol lets all calm down.

Congrats on downing t10 on a fresh class.

However the way you posted your vid it was a bit like you either baiting or showing off.

Lyrica wasnt being an elitist she was pointing things out, an elitist with torn you to shreds and been pretty rude about it, lyrica was offering pointers on things you missed.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

There's a difference between playing sub-optimal and being a liability. If you actually read the list, you would have noticed there are mechanic derps in there as well, not just class aspects.

And yes, the game is actually easy. Simply because every "hard" content is heavily mechanic based that is also scripted. It even gets significantly easier the more gear the group gets as it makes the incoming- and outgoing damage more forgiving (DPS checks) and eases up the healing game. But liabilities in a static group would stagger the progress, gear or no gear. It's not exactly fair towards others either by playing it half-assed (and possibly causing wipes) while others are giving it their all.

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I would say that there are four classes of play.

Perfect: Not a single mistake was made. You played your class to the absolute peak of its ability and nailed every mechanic in your sleep. This is functionally impossible to reach consistently.
Optimal: You played very well. There were some small mistakes, but none of them caused any particular danger. If the majority of your party is playing this way, a win is easy.
Not Optimal: You made some mistakes, sure. However, you didn't screw up on anything that would have gotten the party killed upon failure. A win is possible even if your entire party is here, but it's the minimum level of skill to not be a liability.
Liability: Your party didn't win the fight, and it's your fault.

So, there is a difference between Not Optimal and a Liability: One of them still wins the fight. As long as the Not Optimal person(s) is trying to improve, things will be alright. From the sounds of things, the person you are attacking clearly is trying to improve. Caustic criticism helps nobody.

Please refer to this page to get an idea of the kind of person you're currently being on these forums. Perfection isn't necessary in this game and it hopefully never will be. It is simply not appropriate to sneer down at people for not being perfect. It could be justified if you did consistently play perfectly, but the very nature of being human undermines this ability. As long as you are capable of making a mistake, it's wrong to viciously attack others for making them too.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

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I think Lyrica's point, as she kind of pointed out already, was that the user posted the video to prove they weren't a "scrubby" healer, and that they were trying to seemingly brag about their T10 clear. Lyrica pointed out that her video didn't prove anything, and gave her information on how to better her T10 run.

So the main point Lyrica was trying to make was that she claimed she wan't a scrubby healer but posted a video that prove the exact opposite. Though I may be wrong.

And I kind of have to disagree with your list. A liability doesn't mean they will cause your team to lose. A liability is anyone who is not doing their job to the fullest, or is being lazy, and is just making everyone else's job harder. You can still win but it will a lot harder than with someone who was not a liability.

An example would be if you were to queue into ST and find that your fellow healer is doing very little, or nothing at all. They are a liability. You can still win, by solo healing, but it will be far more difficult. This is not "Not Optimal", this is a liability.

I do believe secondary stats are less useful..
I think DET. is the best.
But after that I prefer spell speed. This game uses dodge skills so much and as a white mage you can not heal while dodging. So getting that one spell or second spell off before moving can make allot of difference. That is something no math formula can account for.
If you didn't have to dodge so much anything would be better than spell speed.

Talia began with personal attacks and assumptions from out of nowhere and then tried to rebut a claim about scrubby healers with a personal vid of T10 SCH performance. There was no way this process was going to go well.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Please refer to this page to get an idea of the kind of person you're currently being on these forums. Perfection isn't necessary in this game and it hopefully never will be. It is simply not appropriate to sneer down at people for not being perfect. It could be justified if you did consistently play perfectly, but the very nature of being human undermines this ability. As long as you are capable of making a mistake, it's wrong to viciously attack others for making them too.

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You're mistaken here on several levels. VanilleFang already explained most of it (thanks), so I'll just skip to whatever is remaining. You believe that I think perfection is necessary. Where did I claim that? Or even anywhere between the lines. You're mistaking "perfection" with "effort". There are people who put effort into things and those who don't. Not putting in effort while the rest of your group is, I find that extremely disrespectful. And on each side of the coin there are extremities: Elitists and scrubs. That link refers to what kind of person you are on the forums, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

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Your welcome. I just wanted to make it clear that you weren't being an elitist or whatever in any way. You supply a lot of helpful information on this forum so, from what I've seen on here, I know you aren't one.

Now I'm really getting off topic. lol

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Talia began with personal attacks and assumptions from out of nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The only thing more SPSD gives you is a fraction of a second longer to dislodge your thumb from your ass and attend to the mechanic that shouldn't have been any surprise to begin with.

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You attacked my comments first when I was voicing my opinion of turn 10. Don't claim you weren't, the comment is right there.

I love spell speed and think it is mathematically and perceptively underrated.
Reasons
- Other stats worthless, (Det near worthless, Crit actually a negative in many situations).
- Works with Stoneskin and Esuna (As does piety, kinda)
- Facilitates Movement/ability timing.
- boosts gain from fey glow, which makes hitting extra ability cutoffs, under divine seal for example ,pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by Talia_Hailwind

You attacked my comments first when I was voicing my opinion of turn 10. Don't claim you weren't, the comment is right there.

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...and where did I direct that comment to you? Or to anyone for that matter? Had I wished to address you specifically, I would have used the quote function.

The only person who would take offense to my statement is one who refuses to learn and continues to make those same mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Talia_Hailwind

You attacked my comments first when I was voicing my opinion of turn 10. Don't claim you weren't, the comment is right there.

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Discrediting one's statement is different from attacking one's persona. In Cynfael's case, he was discrediting the value the benefit spell speed would give you. Meanwhile you neglected to acknowledge the post I made about your statement that "crit should be avoided" and, supposely, that spell speed is a "better choice".

Edit:
To make it easy for you, I was talking about this post

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Crit is luck based, but any form of ability will void spell speed of any potential benefit it gains. A white mage who plans properly and actually knows what he/she is doing has no use for Spell speed. Crit may or may not help. But at least it -has- a chance to create beneficial effects. Even if not for healing, it can still up the dps a bit if you're off DPSing.

Spell speed has no benefit when off-dpsing unless you're tossing out somewhere around 20 spells in success. Which is an extremely rare occasion.

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Spell Speed secondary for waste of mana is irrelevant statement, you will be wasting mana regardless if you spam non-stop over-healing. Spell speed is weak and yet you can always pre-cast if you know the coming boss mechanics.

Spell Speed beneficial for learning and emergency moment to help recovery in case someone made a "OOPS" moment (not you). Healers would be responsible as a team to recover someone mistakes. We can't be perfect like bots.

Spell Speed can speed up long cast Raise, Esuna, Stoneskin phase and etc.

Secondary stats are "label" as playstyle preferences, if you are good with cast timing. Then Spell Speed is useless to you personally and you can't speak for other. Everyone has different real life, latency and reaction timing when it comes to awareness of their surrounding and how focus they can be in a game.

On reddit there is post if you want to know how effective Skill/Spell speed scales: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...l_spell_speed/

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

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You're not reading...

And skill-/spell speed scaling is more relevant for DPS classes and tank classes to an extend. Healing itself has no benefit from spell speed

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I think Lyrica's point, as she kind of pointed out already, was that the user posted the video to prove they weren't a "scrubby" healer, and that they were trying to seemingly brag about their T10 clear. Lyrica pointed out that her video didn't prove anything, and gave her information on how to better her T10 run.

So the main point Lyrica was trying to make was that she claimed she wan't a scrubby healer but posted a video that prove the exact opposite. Though I may be wrong.

And I kind of have to disagree with your list. A liability doesn't mean they will cause your team to lose. A liability is anyone who is not doing their job to the fullest, or is being lazy, and is just making everyone else's job harder. You can still win but it will a lot harder than with someone who was not a liability.

An example would be if you were to queue into ST and find that your fellow healer is doing very little, or nothing at all. They are a liability. You can still win, by solo healing, but it will be far more difficult. This is not "Not Optimal", this is a liability.

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First, Lyrica did not provide any particular advice on bettering the run. She started her treatise by first calling it bait(prepping for insults before even watching the video), then providing a bulleted list of all of Talia's mistakes and finally proclaiming the video so terrible that it wasn't worth watching to the end. She, in a later post, directly called Talia a liability. This is not constructive at all; it is downright insulting. There was literally no desire to help her improve. Lyrica simply belittled and insulted her. Even if we can argue that Talia started things in the wrong, Lyrica took the ball and ran it straight into the endzone of how not to treat a human being.

Now, if we put together all the information about Talia that has been gathered in this thread, we can obtain the following:

1. She was healing Turn 10.
2. She was a Scholar.
3. Her main class, according to her forum avatar, is White Mage.
4. She had been a level 50 Scholar for 3 days.
5. She filled in as a Scholar as what was presumably a last minute addition, having only experienced the healing perspective of this fight as a White Mage.

The odds were stacked against this Scholar, weren't they? She went in with minimal experience in the job and limited experience in a difficult fight from that particular perspective as the healer class who is burdened with one of the most important responsibilities in the entire fight(prey)... and she still won. Mistakes or not, she genuinely deserves to be proud of this victory. I bet her party was also impressed with her performance, considering the circumstances. The fact that she was still able to pull through at all proves that she is not a bad scholar and it also proves she can be a great one if she keeps at it. The next time she does this fight as a scholar, she's going to do better and win more decisively. That's what will ultimately matter in the end.

Now, the liabilities. I'll give this to you. I forgot one specific kind of person when I wrote up my categories: the lazy player. This is the player that, as you've said, either does very little or nothing at all. I optimistically assume that the Non Optimal player is at least trying to improve their performance over time. The lazy player, however, is not trying to improve. They're trying to ride through on the coattails of others. In many situations, the lazy player will be a liability by my definition: their inaction will cause a wipe. In situations like the 24 mans or the 8 man story dungeons, it's not very difficult to handle 1 or 2 lazy players. In a 4 man, a lazy Tank or Healer will often end in a wipe. In Extreme Primals, a lazy anybody will probably lead to a wipe. In 2nd and Final Coil, any lazy player will probably wipe the party. In all of these situations, they're clearly liabilities by anyone's definition. It's the situations where it's very possible to do the instance(as in the only consequence is a longer duty, not any significant increase in difficulty) with one man down that are fuzzy. We're probably both right here. There is a time when the lazy player both is and is not making a fight far more difficult than it needs to be. If the fight isn't any more difficult without this person, then they're simply lazy. If the fight is made unreasonably more difficult to the point of making death extremely likely, than they're being a liability.

I should also add an addendum to the Liability, even though you didn't mention this particular situation: someone who intentionally goes out of their way to try and wipe the party is definitely a liability.

And now to directly address Lyrica.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You're mistaken here on several levels. VanilleFang already explained most of it (thanks), so I'll just skip to whatever is remaining. You believe that I think perfection is necessary. Where did I claim that? Or even anywhere between the lines. You're mistaking "perfection" with "effort". There are people who put effort into things and those who don't. Not putting in effort while the rest of your group is, I find that extremely disrespectful. And on each side of the coin there are extremities: Elitists and scrubs. That link refers to what kind of person you are on the forums, by the way.

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You didn't claim that perfection was necessary, nor did I claim that you claimed it was necessary. I said was that you were belittling another for not being perfect, because this is what your attitude was suggesting. While I did directly state that perfection was not necessary to complete content, I meant it in a general sense, not as a direct criticism to you. In my diagram(let's add in the lazy player I outlined above your quote here too, since VanilleFang proved that it was an incomplete model), everybody except the Lazy Player and the Liability are attempting to improve their game. They're not failing to put in the effort. The Non Optimal Player just isn't good enough to consistently win yet, but they're trying to improve. Any Non Optimal Player who stops trying to improve becomes Lazy. Talia, for reference, was being a Non Optimal Player in her particular situation. The Optimal Player is playing more than well enough to win. Improvement from here is often for improvement's sake alone; after all, why settle for merely winning when one can win better somehow? The Perfect Player is the beacon all should aspire to, even if it's impossible to hold onto for very long.

Let's talk about the advice you gave Talia now. The result of this was that she withdrew and then called you an elitist. Regardless of whether the elitist moniker is true for you or not, this happened because she felt insulted by what you said to her. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and surmise that you were not simply looking to insult her. I'll assume that you were indeed trying to provide feedback aimed at improving her gameplay. The problem here is that it's difficult to say "you did something wrong" without the other person getting defensive about it. This is why structuring criticism in a constructive way helps to prevent such conflicts. Telling someone what they did wrong and then calling them a liability is not constructive. As a result, it was seen by Talia as an attack. One frequently cited ways to effectively give constructive criticism can be thought of like a sandwich. Start by saying something positive, present your criticisms(in a non-caustic manner), and then end with something positive.

For example...

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Good job on that T10 win! There were some close calls there, but it looks like you pulled through okay. I've got some tips that might help reduce those close calls:

- I noticed that Virus wasn't going out very often. Big attacks, whether they're aimed at just the Tank or the entire raid, are perfect times to lay it down. A great macro for this is to assign Virus to be cast on your target's target(/ac "Virus" <tt>). Except for you and your healer buddy, everyone else should be always targeting the boss unless there are adds out, so this macro should usually hit the boss without fussing with your targeting.
- If Eye for an Eye isn't on the tank, throw it on! Every caster in the game has access to it, so it's hard to put together a party that can't have great uptime on it. I'm personally very guilty of forgetting that both Eye for an Eye and Virus exist, so I understand why some other scholars might as well.
- I noticed that you didn't use Eos' abilities very much. These are absurdly powerful and they can make portions of any fight effortless. Experiment with her!
- You spent a lot of time idle during the second phase. Why not toss some dots out? This is also a great situation to make use of target of target macros.
- Adlos were almost late on Preys fairly frequently. Don't be afraid to use Swiftcast if you fear you won't make it. If you're in the middle of a cast when it shows up, I personally think that the most effective way to cancel a cast quickly is to jump in place. I understand that this just takes practice, though. A great effort for your first clear as a scholar!

All in all, it looks like it's just coming down to using everything in the Scholar's toolkit. As for the very act of healing, you've got that down pretty well! Keep it up and you'll be clearing 11+ in no time :)

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Okay, so let's see what I did here in comparison to you. First, I used that sandwich paradigm. Positive -> Criticise -> Positive. In theory, the criticized will start happy and leave happy. Hopefully. I mentioned many of the points you labeled as mistakes in your previous post. In addition to this, however, I coupled each criticism with a suggestion for improvement. This practice of leaving suggestions is the crux of constructive criticism. You provide criticism but also attempt to help foster improvement at the same time.

Now, we get to the last point. You posted the tvtrope link to the Scrub! This plucking of what is considered to be the polar opposite of the "Stop Having Fun" Guy suggests that you read the article I pegged you as. It even suggests that you understand what the SHF Guy is. However, the fact that you attempted to peg me as a Scrub by the tvtrope definition proves that you unfortunately did not read that particular article.

Before I go further, I would like to mention a second reason I labeled you as a SHF Guy, other than what appeared to be your insulting Talia over non-optimal play. This other reason would be the elaborate treatises against Spell Speed you write every single time a healer even expresses even a sliver of interest in whether or not using it is a good idea. You're unflinchingly quick to state that not only is that stat bad, it will actually hinder you somehow. You then proceed to point every aspiring healer straight toward Determination, because that is the "best, most reliable" stat. This is a process in which you loudly champion your particular playstyle as the peak of healing(WHM in particular) and show complete intolerance toward the most common playstyle other than that. The SHF guy in a nutshell.

Now, the scrub. They say that the SHF guy often takes what we call elitism in this form to its logical extreme. The scrub does the opposite; he takes casual play to its logical extreme. This is most often manifested in the setting of "house rules", which often come in the flavors of eliminating particularly complicated mechanics in a game or banning strategies/characters/etc. that are seen by the scrub as being overpowered. The first thing one might notice with these definitions is that we're playing an MMO. It's kind of difficult to set house rules that have any kind of meaning due to the sheer number of people playing it. We can come up with silly runs like Xenosys' "Man Mode" boss battles, but that's not quite the same. We're talking about things like banning Monks from PF parties because their single target DPS is higher than everyone else's and that's overpowered, looking at someone's gear and kicking them if they're using Determination gear because Determination is too good, or only allowing Tanks with all VIT accessories into a fight because only they are the true tanks. They would then proceed to continually enforce these rules because having all of these things missing makes the game more fun. Basically, the scrub takes anything they do not like in a game and not only refuses to do it themselves, but attempts to force others not to use it too. This is in contrast to the SHF Guy, who attempts to force others to avoid any strategy except for the infallible "best" strategy. However, a scrub who can't enforce house rules will still refuse to use any strategy they don't like or see as overpowered. These might be identified in FFXIV as the "I play how I want!" people, who are particularly well known for shrugging off all constructive criticism because it doesn't jive with they way they wish to play.

So, let's go over a couple of things that I've said and done recently. Do they make me a scrub?

1. In this very thread, I have championed the notion that healers should not worry about what Secondary Stats they pick and should instead pick what they prefer because every build is viable. This can be seen as a "casual" viewpoint because it doesn't outwardly appear to be attempting to maximize performance in some way, but it leaves every player with room to maximize whatever they think is most important to maximize. For example, I feel it most important as a Scholar to maximize Crit, so I use Crit gear whenever I have a choice. I do not, however, shake my head sadly whenever I see a Scholar stacking something else. It's their prerogative.

2. I absolutely loathe the fact that stacking Strength instead of Vitality on Tanks is not only very possible, but incredibly effective. However, I still see this as something I should be doing as a Tank, because using melded accessories impacts survivability so little and provides such large gains in attack power. I'm certainly hoping that SE does something eventually to make Tanks actually wish to stack their Main Stat, but I won't avoid something that's been proven to work so well in the meantime. That would be deliberately holding back my party. The scrub, however, would avoid using this strategy due to disliking it.

These two points would combine to suggest that I am not a scrub. At the very least, I am not one based on the definition you have given me. I think I can leave things here, since this post is already long enough.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Det near worthless

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Last I heard, Det was equal to about 0.325 mind.

I don't see how that's worthless. :S

I lost interest after 2 paragraphs. tldr, please

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I lost interest after 2 paragraphs. tldr, please

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Talia called you an elitist because you weren't very constructive in your criticism. If you present your ideas with a kinder touch and offer genuine suggestions for improvement, people will be more receptive to your words.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Snip.

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I appreciate a well thought-out post as much or perhaps more than the next person, and it's nice of you in a way to support the beleaguered party and grant benefit of the doubt, but all of that was just...a little too much. We don't need an essay to break any of this down.

The T10 critique, taken in context of the preceding posts, was fairly reasonable. It wasn't by any means complimentary, but it was actually constructive, especially considering what tone the other party had been taking in recent posts (yes, that was apparently a misunderstanding, but not obvious at the time).

Not going into the rest of it about scrubs and elitists and whatnot. It just doesn't bear that much analysis.

I still don't get why people worry so much about this topic this tier =s

If I had my way, I'd stack DET/PIE to the ceiling and be done with it. That just isn't possible since 2.4, not even close. Double that with my luck on drops being hilariously bad (I'm still missing every last drop from T11 for example) and I've inadvertently ended up a Spell Speed stacker as things stand. Honestly? It's really not so bad, yes it's a total waste on T11 and a good portion of T12 but it has it's use on T10 combined with PoM for stone skinning the group for adds (Don't give me the 'start stone skinning earlier, we have a habit of going to adds right after a charge so that's just not an option) and I can really feel the difference on T13 between my main and alt when it comes to solo healing the bulk of the white damage particularly on P1-P3. I'm usually pushing the SCH to DPS as much as possible so it's pretty commonplace for me to be chain casting at this points.

Would I willingly go with a full SS build? Not really. Do I begrudge my gear? Not really. Are any secondaries going to make or break your gameplay? No, I couldn't even tell you what my alt is wearing, it's that random but I still manage to comfortably clear FCOB. Confidence, knowledge, quick reactions and foresight are far more beneficial than any secondary. One will always be better off studying replays and looking for self improvement than flapping over topics like this.

Anyways...

Getting back on topic and agreeing you all have the biggest pixel-p***s.

You cannot go wrong with Piety. It gives a large pool of mana to heal as much as you like. One other thing to note while Shroud of Saint can regenerate MP, you also automatically get MP every 3 seconds. The more MP you have have the more MP you'll regenerate.

Determination increases your healing potency directly. It's not as strong as mind but for WHM you want your Cure to be as strong as possible rather than rely on Crit or just use Cure 2.

Spellspeed is only useful in large quantity. If I could have Spellspeed to reduce the cast time of Stoneskin to 2.5 seconds then it will make certain scenarios easier but that is mostly in FCoB. The down side is that the amount of Determination and Piety you'll have to sacrifice is too high. This makes Spellspeed less desirable.

I'd go Piety and Determination and then pick Spellspeed over Crit. Not choose Spellspeed over Piety or Determination.

Don't forget that Det also increases DPS as well. So not only will you be getting better heals, but you will also be getting stronger DPS. And Piety is only good until you have as much MP as you are comfortable with. If you get too much Peity it's a waste of stats because you don't need that extra MP and MP/3. Spellspeed is viable in any content, it's just not optimal. If you want to build SpSp, go ahead.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I appreciate a well thought-out post as much or perhaps more than the next person, and it's nice of you in a way to support the beleaguered party and grant benefit of the doubt, but all of that was just...a little too much. We don't need an essay to break any of this down.

The T10 critique, taken in context of the preceding posts, was fairly reasonable. It wasn't by any means complimentary, but it was actually constructive, especially considering what tone the other party had been taking in recent posts (yes, that was apparently a misunderstanding, but not obvious at the time).

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Yeah, long posts are kind of my thing. I should at least try to lay off. But, that critique... even if we take the previous context into account, two wrongs do not make a right. That criticism was not constructive in the slightest. To provide constructive criticism requires elements of actual construction. The criticizer needs to make an attempt to put what they see as broken back together again. The broken object in this case was simply declared as broken and nothing more. It also must focus on the work at hand, not the person performing it. This was violated when the criticized was insulted by being called a liability. This was, hands down, the most caustic, belittling, and downright insulting critique of another player's strategy and person I've ever seen on these forums. So, yes, I pointed it out. When I'm impassioned, I tend to be verbose so that I can get my point across perfectly clearly; the idea of something I say being interpreted as meaning something entirely different than my intention terrifies me.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

Anyways...

Getting back on topic and agreeing you all have the biggest pixel-p***s.

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That isn't exactly what was going on, but you're otherwise correct. We got way off topic; so off topic that I'm surprised the mods didn't close the thread.

However... let's go back to the actual question this thread asked: "Is Spell Speed viable on a WHM?". Our answer was that yes, it is viable. Any WHM build is viable as long as any Piety requirements are satisfied. The OP thanked us for the answer and then proceeded to only post once more in the thread to clarify something.

The purpose of this thread... it ended on the sixth post. Almost everything that's happened since then has actually been off topic. Maybe we should just leave things alone now.

Okay okay, stop the meaningless and piteous arguing. If you must argue, argue with composer. Arguing =/= verbal fight.

Since I won't be healing serious content, I'll run Spell Speed and... Piety I think. Not sure how it works on Novus.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

This was, hands down, the most caustic, belittling, and downright insulting critique of another player's strategy and person I've ever seen on these forums. So, yes, I pointed it out. When I'm impassioned, I tend to be verbose so that I can get my point across perfectly clearly; the idea of something I say being interpreted as meaning something entirely different than my intention terrifies me.

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I don't want to draw this out too much longer, but a couple of small things:

1. I've seen far worse than Lyrica's response there. If you read between the lines, the corrections are actually there (e.g. do anticipate Preys, do be in time to help mitigate Charge, etc.). It wasn't nice, sugary, or of the hand-holding variety, but it also wasn't to the tone of "lol l2p nub." If it offended you, I can't speak to that; you have every right to your own opinion/interpretation.

2. I used to type books like you do, and occasionally I still indulge, but I would gently suggest the following: being overly verbose can actually obfuscate your key points, especially in a format like this where most of us are taking quickie reads on lunch breaks or while waiting for queues. Better to risk that someone might just possibly not understand your intent than to give them so much information that they either give up reading or end up missing your point entirely.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Okay okay, stop the meaningless and piteous arguing. If you must argue, argue with composer. Arguing =/= verbal fight.

Since I won't be healing serious content, I'll run Spell Speed and... Piety I think. Not sure how it works on Novus.

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Welcome to the healer forum, where talking about Spell Speed is like opening a can of Nuclear Whoop Ass upon the healers.

If you're not planning to do anything serious on your healer, I don't suggest building the Novus. Just get the Shiva weapons and be done with it as the MD/VIT/MND is the most important bit of it and this is the least time consuming path to a good weapon. Might change once Tomestone comes out for WoD.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Last I heard, Det was equal to about 0.325 mind.

I don't see how that's worthless. :S

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Stats are not so static, and relationship is far more dynamic than x = x
By this i mean WD, Det and Mind lose value the more you have (of any of the 3).
-Exaggerated example if you are curing for 1000 or 10,000 a gain of 100 is 10 % or 1%. So the value of all stats has to be calculated dynamically based on your current stats and healing amounts (thus ability and potency in question), saying det =s x mind just shows you have no idea.
If you get really into it, bis is probably different based on the % of abilities you are going to use for any given fight. How many medicas vs cure 1s ect. ect..
Furthermore, the more WD / MIND / DET have it increases the value of spellspeed.
Basically if someone did calculations for values at i90, they would be worthless for i130, and if you assume our gear increases are infinite, at X ilevel (probably never reached) 1 spellspeed would surpass 1 weapon damage in value.

Never the less, with a large % of over healing due to the size of WHM heals vs limited health pool size, det won't help you very much. The flexibility offered by taking even milliseconds off your cast will inevitably be better. (if not already the case)

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Since I won't be healing serious content, I'll run Spell Speed and... Piety I think. Not sure how it works on Novus.

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It's pretty cheap, at least it was when I did it. I did put some determination as well though - as much spell speed as my Atma and then max piety, the rest determination.

Piety and speel speed is a great duo. Holy spamming feels so good!

One thing I did forget to point out is that Determination also prevents your spells from being interrupted. So not only does it strengthen your DPS and Heals it also makes it so that you won't get interrupted if a tank is not really tanking and holding aggro.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

Determination also prevents your spells from being interrupted. So not only does it strengthen your DPS and Heals it also makes it so that you won't get interrupted if a tank is not really tanking and holding aggro.

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What ? :o

Are u sure because that's the first time I hear this and I never noticed something like that

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Originally Posted by Kelya

What ? :o

Are u sure because that's the first time I hear this and I never noticed something like that

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Yes. Best example I can give is ifrit hm. As a WHM i stand just outside of ifrits push back aoe and never move. I am geared enough to not die from any attacks, just need to heal or ss some of the attacks.

In the past when I had i90 gear any of these hit would interrupt my cast. But now I can sit in most aoe and cast away.