Job and Subjob system instead of classes?

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

No class is unique, no class brings anything to a party (recent healing changes somewhat changes this, but all frontline are still exactly the same with a different weapon graphic.)

Nothing works well in FFXIV, which is why they're introducing the job system. They wouldn't be adding the job system if they decided the class system is absolutely perfect.

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And? Nothing stopping SE from doing what you said with the classes.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

And? Nothing stopping SE from doing what you said with the classes.

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Clearly there is, or else we wouldn't be getting a job system.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

No class is unique, no class brings anything to a party (recent healing changes somewhat changes this, but all frontline are still exactly the same with a different weapon graphic.)

Nothing works well in FFXIV, which is why they're introducing the job system. They wouldn't be adding the job system if they decided the class system is absolutely perfect.

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I guess I never thought it was 'perfect'.

So it's mostly about the paradigm of the party system then? Trying to establish 'the holy trinity and friends' so the people that form parties can decide who to take and who to not take with them in any situation based on their job name? I thought it 'might' be mostly about that, but I didn't want to make any assumptions.

I guess on the one hand, it would have been nice if 'the world' (that our characters live in) wasn't put together in such a way that lends itself the system, rather than abandoning a more organic progression in favor of the old paradigm of needing a tank, and a healer, and some dps people, to make a party.

It just seems like the holy trinity strangles creativity when it comes to bringing a character into a virtual world, then deciding what you want to become. I've also been playing a bit of Rift lately, and that was supposed to be this amazing thing where you have this 1-of-4 base class, and then you can mix together all this wonderful stuff and be whatever you want. But at the end of the day, the complaints are the same thing as in any MMO: Where are the tanks and healers?

It would be nice to go to a dungeon with 5 people, and across the 5 people, there was enough of what you needed to do to overcome the situation.

But at least I understand it 'seems' like it's mostly about the trinity, and getting some clear cut labels on people to make it easier for the Type A leaders to decide whether you will be useful to their group or not.

That sounds fun, for people who really need that to hang on to. I hope they, as they say, also keep the base class concepts around that they have now, where you pick up 'cards' that you learn from various classes and put your deck together and then go out in the world as your base class (depending on your tool) and your deck of cards. That seems new and interesting and different to me still :)

Thank you for responding! Many of my questions get buried, probably because they aren't very good questions, but often times I get curious as to why people are fighting about things I don't really understand.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Clearly there is, or else we wouldn't be getting a job system.

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Job system was mostly for the whiners that wanted "FF jobs" or whatever the dumb excuse was. Nothing is stopping SE from making the higher tier abilities restricted to the class it came from.

job system ok
Subjob no thanks
idk many ffxi fan players want ffxi-2, but SE say ffxiv is diffenrent game, for me yes please.
if you like ffxi go back, dont ruin this game

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Job system was mostly for the whiners that wanted "FF jobs" or whatever the dumb excuse was. Nothing is stopping SE from making the higher tier abilities restricted to the class it came from.

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Gee, for SE to take on such a decision, The vast majority of fans must have been 'Whiners'.
And ofcourse you're the level headed one whom they chose to ignore.

Dumb excuse? Class uniqueness and traditional FF job system is a dumb excuse? are you serious? I guess you must have hated the majority of FF series in that case.

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

Gee, for SE to take on such a decision, The vast majority of fans must have been 'Whiners'.
And ofcourse you're the level headed one whom they chose to ignore.

Dumb excuse? Class uniqueness and traditional FF job system is a dumb excuse? are you serious? I guess you must have hated the majority of FF series in that case.

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Yes they are dumb excuses and yes the majority of FF games are boring and uninteresting.

A lot of peeps seem to be having difficulty understanding the concept of the Job System so I will try to use a real world analogy to explain. Military Operations.

If you are fighting a battle in an outdoor environment you want soldiers that are cross-trained in many weapons, tactics and basic first-aid. This way you can adapt to changing battlefield environments, pick up a fallen soldiers weapon, apply first-aid, even run away and regroup to try another assault tactic. Open World battles are less about teamwork and more about attrition and adaptability.

Special Forces Missions are quite different. You have a small group of highly trained specialists who must act as a team, each one carrying out his role to perfection in order to achieve a clear objective, whether it be capturing/killing Bin Laden, rescuing hostages, sabotage or even intelligence gathering. Each team member has a specialty (with some cross-class training) ie., Heavy Weapons, Sniper, Engineer/Demolitions, Medic, Communications/IT(computers). Think of Team Fortress or even Halo as examples. Yes each soldier can do the others job in a pinch but for the team to operate in top form and effeciency, each member must use his specialties.

So just think of FFXIV Classes as the well rounded, cross trained soldier that can be sent into any situation and has a decent chance at success if he can adapt to changing environs and enemies. (Open-World Quests and Grinding)

Think of FFXIV Jobs as Navy Seals or Army Rangers (specialists) who are sent in to a specific location to do a specific mission and rely heavily on teamwork to achieve their objective. (Dungeons & Raids).

I realize the analogy kinda falls apart if we are to believe that a Navy Seal/Ranger is useless out in the field apart from his team but I suspect/guess that The Grand Companies are somehow going to magically "imbue us" with these extra abilities/jobs just for the duration of the Mission/Dungeon/Raid.

Some of my thoughts anyway...probably wrong...usually am...so move along...nothing to see here.

http://youtu.be/4EYlXay0njE

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

My reply lies below:


Let me add on to that list Jennestia:

Or how about the copy pasted Races with different names from XI?

Or the never ending request to copy paste the search feature from XI?

Or Chocobos and Airships from XI?

Or Auction House request and current analysis from XI?

Or Simplified Food system from XI?

Or... someone else can continue.

Please use another line from now on Winnipeg.

SE itself isn't listening to your anti XI rants with their decisions. If they did, the game would be shut down by now.
In the end it's all about what makes the game successful and bringing the customer base and attracting the masses back.

I will point out again this is not a literal request to copy paste XI, imo system like FFT would also work perfect. It's the concept of what works rather than the idea of cloning.

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Thank you SO much for that list Gennosuke. Ppl are so incredibly stupid; it never ceases to amaze me. How oblivious can you be? You could literally go on forever. And, I can't stand when ppl try to bring up how much other FF titles had in common with one another; as if that justifies the "coincidental" similarities between XIV and XI. They aren't virtually identical because they're drawing from the same source. They're virtually identical because SE saw the success they had with XI, and wanted to do their best to make a new MMO that could bring in XI fans, as well as tap into the market that draws casual players like ppl who play WoW. What ended up happening was a really shitty attempt at an XI clone. If you're gonna do something, don't do it half-assed. The majority of XI's problems could still be addressed without too much adjustment in XIV. The job system is one of the major ones. The battle-pace is another (far too fast). And the spamming of abilities, cures, and buffs. Get rid of that, and you're practically set. Endless grinding and bogus exp loss from a death were two of the biggest issues ppl had w/ XI; having to sit through nm spawn times ranging from 1 hour to 3+ days for some of the most trivial items was another one; and limited race/sex choices. Most, if not all, have been or will be addressed very soon. All that's left is the need to implement some sort of job/sub job system ****SIMILAR**** to XI, and the game is practically a guaranteed success. Did ya'll catch that? ***similar*** to XI -not a clone. Anybody understand the difference?

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Originally Posted by Griss

Sometimes i wish they would not have used the word "class" as the meta descriptor for weapons and there skill pools. People are still having difficulty wrapping there heads around the games base system even almost a year+ after the playing public got there hands on the game. I Cant really fault either side though it is kind of a out there concept at least when it comes to games.

Makes me chuckle a bit when some can not see that the armory is a evolution of the job/subjob system though.

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Oh, Griss, you forgot the prefix on your word there: I think you meant to say *de-evolution ;)

The armory system is the epitome of everything wrong w/ XI's job/sub job system. In XI, only a small handful of sub jobs were deemed "acceptable" for partying. And I assure you, only a small handful of actions/traits are going to be deemed "acceptable" eventually as well. Why, you might ask? Because SE couldn't even handle balancing job/sub jobs when there were only 240 possible combinations to be had (16 jobs w/ 15 possible subs for each job, therefore 16(15), which is 240). So, tell me, how do you think they're going to be able to handle, balancing the "infinite" number of actions and traits that ppl have at their disposal? They won't be able to, plain and simple. While I hope SE realizes that XI's mechanics were brilliant, and decide to make some sort of XIV/XI hybrid, some part of me almost wants things to continue as they are, just so I can say, "told ya so," later. Luckily, I'm not that vindictive, so I'm going to put my "2 cents in" and hope that SE listens to reason.

Cavemen probably had no rules, restrictions, or anything like it: they could do, pretty much, whatever the hell they wanted -just like classes in XIV. XIV's armory system is no more an evolved form of XI's sub job system, than Cavemen are an evolved form of modern day human beings.

One of the major problems with XIV is Square has been trying to reinvent the wheel, and every attempt at that creates some horrific amalgam of pure fail, their wheel is not even a shape that should exist in the natural world, let alone roll.

Simply put, don't fix what isn't broken. I see the appeal in the armory system, it is indeed enticing to be able to use any ability you want, but as with many things they have tried, it is terrible when implemented. Although, I honestly think it might work if every class could use every weapon, although with a preference towards certain types of weaponry, which I am sure sounds familiar.

But I've taken to being wary of any new ideas they come up with, because their track record with implementing things not directly excised from the decaying corpse of FFXI has been pretty damn awful.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Oh, Griss, you forgot the prefix on your word there: I think you meant to say *de-evolution ;)

The armory system is the epitome of everything wrong w/ XI's job/sub job system. In XI, only a small handful of sub jobs were deemed "acceptable" for partying. And I assure you, only a small handful of actions/traits are going to be deemed "acceptable" eventually as well. Why, you might ask? Because SE couldn't even handle balancing job/sub jobs when there were only 240 possible combinations to be had (16 jobs w/ 15 possible subs for each job, therefore 16(15), which is 240). So, tell me, how do you think they're going to be able to handle, balancing the "infinite" number of actions and traits that ppl have at their disposal? They won't be able to, plain and simple. While I hope SE realizes that XI's mechanics were brilliant, and decide to make some sort of XIV/XI hybrid, some part of me almost wants things to continue as they are, just so I can say, "told ya so," later. Luckily, I'm not that vindictive, so I'm going to put my "2 cents in" and hope that SE listens to reason.

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this may seem well thought out but the reason only "a small handful of subjobs" were deemed "acceptable" was because the death penalty. ppl were just unwilling to use things that other ppl didn't say worked, i had a guy drop from my pt in 11 just because the BLM we had subed SMN (had a friend tell me one night he took a chance and invited a RDM/NIN to his pt to DD and the guy never mess up hate control). and as far as balancing jobs/subjobs only thing i can say here is as long as you use you main job to determine what you do there really isn't a bad job/subjob combo (or i could be wrong here).

There is a reason why no game has come up with something great to replace the "trinity" or having open ended charaters (aka: no class) turn into a few combos of abilitys that work. That reason is its just not easy to create a system that is brand new, or a open system that is perfectly balanced. The day that game comes out, everyone else will be copying it.

This game in its situation can't afford (literary) to try something totally new, so what we get is what we get. But either way, there is no game out there thats SO different and unique yet, we have to deal with the tropes.

Science forbid that they try something new instead going back to the job/subjob system. No FF has used the same combat/class system twice, yes there has been some similarities but not the same system. I rather them continue that tradition with the whole class/job system than falling back on the job/subjob system.

It's been said before many many times and it will be repeated here. For SE to get rid of the Class System and replace it with a Job System everything that the Class system touches would have to be re-calibrated. Buildings in cities, NPCs and dialogue in the game, the lore of the game itself, and not to mention we'd all be reset back to square one making whatever you accomplished in this game moot. Crafting is part of this Class System as well, and with a Job System that would be relegated back to the crafting system of XI. A system that most people don't like and hardly use. SE adding this Job System to go alongside the Class System is their way of appeasing the group that's been crying/shouting/screaming/annoying for it to be put in place.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Ability to set homepoints at crystals was found in FFXI as well.

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Rename Crystal to Kafra and you have the same as Ragnarok

As long a with jobs, playing Y Class dose not = xxx job only, I think the system will ada a lot to the game.

I think if jobs are more rolls that buff your class, and focus/limit its ability's but make it exceptional at that job in the party, then it will make for a very interesting Change.
An each job buffs each class in a slightly different way. ( I think they should not be accessable to all class, they would have to work for the class so some would be more limited then others.)

If on the other hand you just get to change only from a class to a specific job (so more more like you ranked up glad into uber tank), then well meh, yeah roll on FFXI job system plz.

INB4..
Refresh <Can I have it?>
Raise <Can I have it?>
Why a you a WAR/WHM?
DarkKnights using a scythe? Use a greatsword that's better.
Can you change your subjob to /NIN? kthx.
Vermillion Cloak? LOLGTFONEWB <kick>
OMGHEALME!! <Can't mp..>
TP REFRESH PLZ! <wildcard is random, I can't assure you that you'll get a TP refresh>
OMFG YOU GANKED MY ELECTRUMRING! GMCALL
Almost everyone had a subjob of NIN or DNC.
etc.

ahhh the nostalgia of FFXI 10 years ago..

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

INB4..
Refresh <Can I have it?>
Raise <Can I have it?>
Why a you a WAR/WHM?
DarkKnights using a scythe? Use a greatsword that's better.
Can you change your subjob to /NIN? kthx.
Vermillion Cloak? LOLGTFONEWB <kick>
OMGHEALME!! <Can't mp..>
TP REFRESH PLZ! <wildcard is random, I can't assure you that you'll get a TP refresh>
OMFG YOU GANKED MY ELECTRUMRING! GMCALL
etc.

ahhh the nostalgia of FFXI 10 years ago..

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this is the obsolets thing that ffxi sucks
job system without subjob is better idea, actual system is more versality and better that SJ

We haven't even seen the system implemented, I don't know why even the vocal minority of people can't wait and experience it before they ask for a rework?

Yoshida said at some point we'd be able to switch jobs when there are more for each job pretty easily. With that in mind I'm sort of expecting it to turn into a paradigm-like system where people can switch between 2-3 predetermined roles to fit a situation. If a boss is throwing down heavy aoe, maybe a couple of DPS would switch to healing. If a bunch of adds spawn and are overrunning people, perhaps someone could switch to a tank and round them up.

I think this kind of system would justify jobs and keep the whole thing fresh and interesting.

And that's just a brief suggestion, they could do a whole load of different things with it but you guys aren't willing to consider what the current incarnation could become rather than what you want in your game that's being made for you and you alone.

I don't think the OP understands the Job System. It's it's only disguised as a whole new set of Jobs and Abilities. It's actually an easy mode way for dumb people who can't figure out how to build a class.

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Originally Posted by AJ_Anyia

It's been said before many many times and it will be repeated here. For SE to get rid of the Class System and replace it with a Job System everything that the Class system touches would have to be re-calibrated. Buildings in cities, NPCs and dialogue in the game, the lore of the game itself, and not to mention we'd all be reset back to square one making whatever you accomplished in this game moot. Crafting is part of this Class System as well, and with a Job System that would be relegated back to the crafting system of XI. A system that most people don't like and hardly use. SE adding this Job System to go alongside the Class System is their way of appeasing the group that's been crying/shouting/screaming/annoying for it to be put in place.

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I would mostly agree to this point, there would certainly be significant effort needed and perhaps some sacrifice and that could be their way around the situation but.. if this is the reason, don't you think it would have made more sense and been a simpler task for SE and addressed many of the concerns to just rename classes to Jobs and make them more defined and unique?
The issue here is not what their intention is, but how they addressed it. I can't really see both systems being utilized properly but rather ultimately hinder each other. I really feel keeping 2 systems in place will just be a source of complication, redundancy and introduce future problems. SE is just opening a can of worms when the base Armoury system isn't even efficient and far from perfected yet.
To get this Job system of real use and value, alot of ongoing effort and attention will need to be poured into the battle system, mobs and content in general to make it worth using and keeping the old system just as significant.

To comment on the last part of your post though, since i have seen this reasoning few times already. I find it funny that on one hand the white knights are blaming the crying/whining groups for asking for and bringing in the job system..and then ironically enough, on the other hand they stand by this new duo-system like their life depended on it (because..well SE came up the new idea so it must be good), to the extent where they rush to flame such threads and throw silly anti-XI rants.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I don't think the OP understands the Job System. It's it's only disguised as a whole new set of Jobs and Abilities. It's actually an easy mode way for dumb people who can't figure out how to build a class.

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I disagree, i don't think it has anything to do with 'dumb' people, many players have complained time and again at how simplified this game is becoming, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to slap abilities in their list and become a versatile player.
I think there are various other reasons why SE would think of introducing this. For one, the Armoury class is way too loose and undefined to be able to actually form a reliable party on the fly to tackle tougher mobs; Not only do we have a fail Party Search system, but to add onto that, the Armoury class exacerbates this issue further with an extra layer of Shadowiness and imperceptibility. I mean do you really plan to interrogate every player in a full party of 8 to find out their exact abilities before you form each party? Not only is it inefficient and impractical but can even come across as offensive when you plan to ditch a person because they are missing a certain ability from a secondary class.
Job system as in XI or FFT would never have this issue because simply put, they would just give away what a person can and can not offer by name. Granted, The new job system can address this issue now. Yet i still disagree with 2 systems in place as mentioned in point above. No need for complications, one simple yet deep system sounds like the smart and logical thing to do.

I really believe SE just needs to focus on fixing the core features of the game before expanding too far, i really don't think they can afford to risk taking more damage and lose whatever remaining players they have if more new features fail.
By their own words, this is their final chance to fix the game before PS3 release in hope of attracting the masses back, and so.. i voice my concern.

I still think you're making it seem more complicated than it's going to be. Mainly with the way you talk about 2 different systems, when I don't think that's really where it's going. The jobs just being specialties of the already existing classes. Actually making it 1 deep system like you're wanting.

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Originally Posted by Leeloo

The way I understood it was that the new jobs are simply more focused play styles of the original classes. Monk being a specialty that you can earn as a pugilist rather than being a completely new job to level from 1-50(for example). That's how it came off to me in the battle reform blueprint anyway:

If that's the case then that takes care of some of your concerns up there. It doesn't seem as complicated & redundant when I look at it that way.

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Thanks for your input, i agree this scenario does make the most sense out of them and it does address the concern of leveling up for example which would have definitely been a pain.
Yet again, my question as posted before, why not make the current classes these jobs instead of having 2 different modes? Surely, it can all be combined into one mode. Classes can be renamed to Jobs, and job names and can be replaced with the traditional job titles.

The only nice explanation is that SE is trying to be creative by adding this extra layer. I just cant help but feel it will introduce more harm than good in the long run. Time will tell.

Yea it's tough to say for sure until we actually see it. I don't mean to sound like I'm 100% confident in it being perfect right away either. = D

As usual I can see how it could work from what I understand from that blueprint, but what I see(speculate) doesn't always match up with what SE ends up doing. I guess as far as what they're called, it may be like people have mentioned in the other similar thread. The way they're doing it allows it to fit into the current game easier without having to mess with a lot of other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

Yet again, my question as posted before, why not make the current classes these jobs instead of having 2 different modes?

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The problem is it would be outrageous (to some if not most) to have all their year-long efforts placed in the current "build-your-own-class" system wiped out forever and replaced with a rigid, role-specific class/job system (that most people want) in its place. If the game were being redeveloped without being online, and a total wipe was possible, maybe it wouldn't need this convoluted two-tiered approach. Alas, this is the hand we are dealt with.

And so, we continue with an armory class system that will take a back seat to (and co-exist with) a new well-defined-role job system. The neat trick will be in making the two somehow work together so they don't seem completely at odds with each other, but I'm not sure how that will be accomplished.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

The problem is it would be outrageous (to some if not most) to have all their year-long efforts placed in the current "build-your-own-class" system wiped out forever and replaced with a rigid, role-specific class/job system (that most people want) in its place. If the game were being redeveloped without being online, and a total wipe was possible, maybe it wouldn't need this convoluted two-tiered approach. Alas, this is the hand we are dealt with.

And so, we continue with an armory class system that will take a back seat to (and co-exist with) a new well-defined-role job system. The neat trick will be in making the two somehow work together so they don't seem completely at odds with each other, but I'm not sure how that will be accomplished.

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Yes, i agree with what you say. This is my feeling regarding their approach too.
I suppose it's a big impact on current playerbase to just replace the job system with what in reality i feel is a fail legacy Armoury system, and they may well be playing the card of flexibility to give it justification. I wouldn't be surprised if they abolish the Class system completely in the future and this turns out to be a transition state. I think this would please the majority who aren't playing the game now but dissappoint many of current players.
In the end, reality is whatever brings the best in the game and attracts most players outside of current playerbase will come to pass. We're more guinea pigs in beta phase now. I personally would hope for this outcome, i think it's in the best interest of the game, it worked better and i think they realize that well now.

All speculation though, we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Leeloo

I still think you're making it seem more complicated than it's going to be. Mainly with the way you talk about 2 different systems, when I don't think that's really where it's going. The jobs just being specialties of the already existing classes. Actually making it 1 deep system like you're wanting.

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The reason he's saying this Leeloo is because the job system won't *replace the class system, if it's just added to the game. Many ppl may choose to continue playing on their classes in favor of more "versatility," when what it really amounts to is little more than an undefined job. In these kinds of instances, it will be even more difficult than normal to guarantee what kind of player you're adding to your pt. Imagine if you do a search for a gladiator, and you ask him/her to come tank. They say yes, but when they get there, you realize that they only have Provoke equipped. They don't have Taunt equipped; they don't have Defender equipped; they don't have any Curing actions equipped; they don't have Second Wind equipped; or anything else that even remotely resembles a "tanking" class/job. All they have is a bunch of Melee actions equipped from LNC and MRD or something. You kindly ask them to put on some other actions, and they say: "I don't have those, and I keep hate good enough with DD'n."
Then, you're forced to argue with them about how it's much more of a pain to have to constantly spam them in cures because they're taking hits like a naked DoM, and you don't want to have to play *only Healer on your "healer" class; and so on. It's an endless cycle of ppl wanting to play their class an extremely "unconventional" way that doesn't really work out anyway because it's too hard for SE to maintain balance with so many combinations available to each class.

We all would absolutely LOVE the idea of infinite masteries and cross-class options. However, it's just not a practical. So, what is the solution? Do we put our trust in SE, and hope XIV doesn't fail us again? Do we put our trust in Yoshi-P's unparalleled genius, and hope that he can bear this burden all on his own w/o our input? Or do we make suggestions based on evidence from previous experience with other MMOs? Personally, I'd have to go with the latter.

It just occurred to me that there's a possibility that the jobs may be the only "entities" capable of reaching beyond 50. One of Leeloo's previous posts sparked the idea. If that were the case, it may not be as bad as I thought. I know you guys will hate the comparison, but please try to stay objective.


Think of FFXI. Imagine all that you were able to do at lvl 50. We had close to half of everything in the CoP expansions available to us. We had plenty of NMs we could solo at lvl 50. We could practically roam wherever we wanted to w/ a party of lvl 50s w/o toooo much danger, and so on. So, imagine a much more balanced system like we have in XIV, where lvl 50 means much, much, much more for us than even 75 ever did in XI. It's possible that classes will be set aside for all *current end-game content, and as level caps are introduced, jobs will be the only "entities" capable of breaking past the "lvl 50 plateau." So, then, SE won't be challenged with having to maintain balance 1-50 and beyond every single time a job or new class is introduced. Classes will have their own "content;" and jobs will have their own as well. It'd kind of be like adding the cap increase to lvl 99 w/o completely undermining all of someone's hard work. Jobs will make the class content easier (as a party), because they're a bunch of powered-up versions of the current classes (not to mention they're lvl 55, 75, 99, or w/e else is added l8r), but also the DDs can't "cure themselves," the "BLMs" can't Curaga, and so on -so, they have their "weaknesses," but they also have higher levels and stats to fall back on. Meanwhile, classes will make the content easier by offering much more versatility. And when there is limited availability of players, because they're EXTREMELY diverse (or ppl just wanna solo), they won't have any need to look for parties. What do ya'll think?

froget sub jobs thats just going to force people to play what they dont want to. the route there going is good now were going to have actual jobs/classes/whatever you want to call them. we been classless since the game was playable and since auto attack were getting an idea of what there going to do.