SMN mp needs sorting out

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

Just going to quote this...
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Maybe they could give BRD a "Pianissimo" Effect like in XI, where their next song will only effect the person they target, in exchange, it costs 1/2 the MP and doesn't nerf your damage?

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I feel the exact same way..

ANOTHER NERF THAT SMN GOT THAT MANY FORGET...

THE BANE NERF.

So it's ok for black mage to keep up AoE damage forever basically, yet summoner can only bane to three other targets? I don't get that..

Summoner is balanced against every dps job but not against intense end game raiding. Summoner never worked great with other jobs because of its design. DoT classes have no place as a dps in a party because traditionally they specialized in crowd control until WoW tried to make them into a dps and failed. DoT works for Scholar because it's a healer even when stressed while when the Summoner is pushed to it's limits it fails apart.

Would be nice if SMN aetherflow gave 6 stacks instead of 3. Fester for days, and less sad when have to use a stack for Energy Drain. Just that one change would dramatically improve SMN.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I feel the exact same way..

ANOTHER NERF THAT SMN GOT THAT MANY FORGET...

THE BANE NERF.

So it's ok for black mage to keep up AoE damage forever basically, yet summoner can only bane to three other targets? I don't get that..

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You mean when they fixed the tooltip so that it correctly described the effects of bane?

Out of curiosity, how much are people's Fester's hitting for?

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Out of curiosity, how much are people's Fester's hitting for?

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I'm only i106 with an i115 weapon and without buffs in a party I get them for about 940ish and crit for 1400

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I feel the exact same way..

ANOTHER NERF THAT SMN GOT THAT MANY FORGET...

THE BANE NERF.

So it's ok for black mage to keep up AoE damage forever basically, yet summoner can only bane to three other targets? I don't get that..

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Wasnt a nerf, all it did was change the tooltip. Bane was always 3 targets.

There is one person in this thread that has actually seen the bigger picture. Not enough magic DDs.

Bards play paeon for melee because they run out of tp in end game fights. We all know that. Bards don't play ballad because there aren't enough caster DDs to warrant ballad. The problem isn't that Summoner runs out MP. It is that there aren't enough caster jobs that function like the rest of DDs in the game. Black mage is stupidly simple and it makes a horrible tool to compare to. They nerfed Ninja's TP management because it could basically go forever and yet there is a job designed around not having to manage it's resources.

If melee didn't rely on bards to play paeon, they would have to manage their TP and sacrifice dps just like Summoner currently does. So stop trying to get Summoner to have an infinite pool. We don't need more Blm-esque jobs. Ask for more casters jobs so that ballad will actually get sung.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

There is one person in this thread that has actually seen the bigger picture. Not enough magic DDs.

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Adding a new magic DPS will only matter if it changes the meta. When your options are 1) Foe for the BLM or 2) Paeon/Ballad for someone else, you need a really good reason to pick #2. Right now, that reason is because MNK and NIN top dps charts while providing good utility, with DRG not far behind on the DPS front. The reason SMN isn't picked over BLM is because SMN would require a separate choosing of #2, but doesn't benefit from it enough to be worth it, especially when that MP could be going to Foe for much better raid DPS. Maybe if your group were SMN-heavy it would make sense to Ballad, but with most groups taking 2 melee and a BRD. . .well, BLM is the obvious choice.

Basically, adding in new magic DPS won't change anything unless they either have enough utility to be game changing or enough DPS to make up for the 20% the BRD loses and the 10% a BLM would get from Foe. Like it or not, BLM is the measuring stick now.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

There is one person in this thread that has actually seen the bigger picture. Not enough magic DDs.

Bards play paeon for melee because they run out of tp in end game fights. We all know that. Bards don't play ballad because there aren't enough caster DDs to warrant ballad. The problem isn't that Summoner runs out MP. It is that there aren't enough caster jobs that function like the rest of DDs in the game. Black mage is stupidly simple and it makes a horrible tool to compare to. They nerfed Ninja's TP management because it could basically go forever and yet there is a job designed around not having to manage it's resources.

If melee didn't rely on bards to play paeon, they would have to manage their TP and sacrifice dps just like Summoner currently does. So stop trying to get Summoner to have an infinite pool. We don't need more Blm-esque jobs. Ask for more casters jobs so that ballad will actually get sung.

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ya and let 3 mages share 1 magical DPS slot. Even if the new mage will have limited resources, you think a bard would play for that one new mage only? Yeah no...

But back to the MP problem - was doing Shiva ex yesterday and damn... switching to BLM elimitated so many issues I had with SMN, it's crazy.
Sustain, re-summoning, multi-dotting (yeah, I'm looking at that stupid single golem >_> because of PS3... I mean Bane limitations), using Ifrit (no contagion), Shadow Flare, occasional reviving to "try" to save the raid. I mean that's why I used to like SMN because of the variety of thinks he could do but lately, it gets overshadowed by others, who specialize into their role.

The Sustain "buff" was a huge nerf for us back then, the reason why they changed it from HP to MP is way beyond me.
Bringing back Thunder would mean even more mp problems.

Having 6 stacks PF aetherf is a bit too much I think but adding 1k more of mp to the soul stone will be ideal

Always thought it was interesting that in most FFs, SMN has the most MP out of all the classes. Not FFXIV though :P

1k more mp would be = 1000 x 0.02 = more 20 mana every 3 sec = 400 mana every minute = 600 more mana every minute with aetherflow. That is more than 2x energy drains every minute. With that our mana would stick 80 - 100% all of the time if no need ress. That would make no sence and remove purpose of our energy drain and mana management. If we really need buff, just buff our pet damage so that wont affect SCH.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

1k more mp would be = 1000 x 0.02 = more 20 mana every 3 sec = 400 mana every minute = 600 more mana every minute with aetherflow. That is more than 2x energy drains every minute. With that our mana would stick 80 - 100% all of the time if no need ress. That would make no sence and remove purpose of our energy drain and mana management. If we really need buff, just buff our pet damage so that wont affect SCH.

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I'm sorry but how would it solve SMN main problem on long lasting fights (with a very tight dps check) that include a lot of mandatory movements and so an heavy use of ruin II by tossing more DPS into our pets?
Did you ever put a single step into fcob as SMN? mostly t13?

Don't get me wrong, mp management is something challenging and interesting but it is only a real challenge for midcore/hardcore contents, today the challenge became a nightmare covered with frustration for fcob...
Meanwhile mp management isn't a problem at all for casual contents, there is no equal balance between those 2 different scenes.

On a side note, I would gladly trade my Energy Drain and my Raise for few more MPs, anytime xD

You know, I don't think Dragoon's lack of magical defense was a problem for casual content either.

But they still got their magic defense buff.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

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If they increase our mana pool 1k+ more it is almost same if we do not have mana bar at all. Do you want that?

Pet damage increase would cover that 10 - 15 dps what we lost in the long fight by using energy drain. In the first 5 minutes we do not need use energy drain at all then rest 5 - 8 minute we are losing around 20 dps per minute. So buffing pet damage by 10 - 15 dps would cover the dps that you lose by using energy drain. I think it is pretty good you get direct punishment if you move and spam ruin2 because other classes lose their dps too by moving except bard.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

II think it is pretty good you get direct punishment if you move and spam ruin2 because other classes lose their dps too by moving except bard.

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No, it's not a matter of punishments, it's a matter of dps optimization. Players managed to solve DPS loose by either using positioning tricks (meeting point behind Bahamut during mega flare) or by using skills as Cover during earthshocker.
When you need to optimize at its best your DPS as SMN for contents, there is no way to solve your MP issues with the above solutions. The only answer will be to make your BRD sing Ballad and so... It mean to add an extra handicap to the whole team.
If you don't use ruin2 while executing the mandatory movements then your dps will drop dramatically, just like using Energy Drain over Fester during fights that need an heavy DPS check.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If they increase our mana pool 1k+ more it is almost same if we do not have mana bar at all. Do you want that?

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Just like BLM? And how this would be a bad thing? Please, explain :o
They clearly moved into the "let's make a ton of adds" + "ton of movements leading to one shot mechanics if not done properly" for fcob
We don't "need" an infinite mp pool as SMN, we just need to be able to play at its maximum for a DPS optimization matter. Just like a BLM.

And you didn't answered to my question by the way, did you ever put a step as SMN in fcob? all turns?

Have anyone else considered doing slightly less damage during phases that don't require optimal dps, to have near full MP during harsh dps-checks? You don't need to put out the absolute maximum dps during the entire fight, so it would make sense to sacrifice a small part of your damage output at times, to make sure you don't run out of MP. (which is a bigger dps-loss)

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Originally Posted by Mholito

You don't need to put out the absolute maximum dps during the entire fight

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/4/

For fcob. Yes you do.

/disappointed T.T
It's time for me to make a forum break I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Have anyone else considered doing slightly less damage during phases that don't require optimal dps, to have near full MP during harsh dps-checks? You don't need to put out the absolute maximum dps during the entire fight, so it would make sense to sacrifice a small part of your damage output at times, to make sure you don't run out of MP. (which is a bigger dps-loss)

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Is your suggestion truly to stop dps'ing when its not needed? Can this truly be taken seriously. And how do you account for the fact that NO OTHER DPS NEEDS TO DO THIS.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

Is your suggestion truly to stop dps'ing when its not needed? Can this truly be taken seriously. And how do you account for the fact that NO OTHER DPS NEEDS TO DO THIS.

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I am not a complete moron, if that's what you think. What I'm suggesting; is to use some stacks of Aetherflow for Energy Drain instead of Fester, to keep your MP sustained, when you don't need to put out maximum dps.
You also seem to miss the fact that the only dps-job that doesn't need to do resource-management, is the Black Mage. All the other dps-jobs will eventually run out of MP or TP if they keep doing maximum dps.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

You also seem to miss the fact that the only dps-job that doesn't need to do resource-management, is the Black Mage. All the other dps-jobs will eventually run out of MP or TP if they keep doing maximum dps.

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But Paeon with 5 people using it is way, way better than Ballad.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

I am not a complete moron, if that's what you think. What I'm suggesting; is to use some stacks of Aetherflow for Energy Drain instead of Fester, to keep your MP sustained, when you don't need to put out maximum dps.
You also seem to miss the fact that the only dps-job that doesn't need to do resource-management, is the Black Mage. All the other dps-jobs will eventually run out of MP or TP if they keep doing maximum dps.

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It has been said before but Energy Drain is a dps loss and is a sacrifice SMN should not have to make as again no other dps class has to sacrifice their dps to sustain their dps.

Give ninja goad for mp then maybe things would become more even (joke btw I don't really want this)

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

It has been said before but Energy Drain is a dps loss and is a sacrifice SMN should not have to make as again no other dps class has to sacrifice their dps to sustain their dps.

Give ninja goad for mp then maybe things would become more even (joke btw I don't really want this)

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Every dps-job has to sacrifice something to keep their dps sustained over an extended period of time, either they have to limit their own damage output , or they need to have someone else limiting their damage output. The exceptions are Black Mages (whose entire gimick is the fact that they have very short uptime and downtime) and Goad (Which isn't enough to keep everyone sustained).

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Every dps-job has to sacrifice something to keep their dps sustained over an extended period of time, either they have to limit their own damage output , or they need to have someone else limiting their damage output. The exceptions are Black Mages (whose entire gimick is the fact that they have very short uptime and downtime) and Goad (Which isn't enough to keep everyone sustained).

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Between goad and Paeon yes every tp using dps can be sustained fine the exception being bard which for obvious reasons is not considered.

I have never once had an issue where any of our dps were dragging due to no tp in final coil.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

Between goad and Paeon yes every tp using dps can be sustained fine the exception being bard which for obvious reasons is not considered.

I have never once had an issue where any of our dps were dragging due to no tp in final coil.

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Paeon is, as you are obviously aware of, a dps-loss for the bard, which counts as a someone sacrificing their damage output for the sake of sustainability. How big of a dps-loss is using Energy drain over Fester anyway? Especially if you make sure to only use Energy Drain when you know that your MP isn't going to overflow from it and Aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Paeon is, as you are obviously aware of, a dps-loss for the bard, which counts as a someone sacrificing their damage output for the sake of sustainability.

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But it's a raid DPS gain. The same is not true of Ballad for SMN.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Paeon is, as you are obviously aware of, a dps-loss for the bard, which counts as a someone sacrificing their damage output for the sake of sustainability. How big of a dps-loss is using Energy drain over Fester anyway? Especially if you make sure to only use Energy Drain when you know that your MP isn't going to overflow from it and Aetherflow.

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Paeon for 5 people = huge raid DPS gain, even counting the BRD DPS loss
Ballad for SMN = small raid DPS LOSS, BRD loses more than SMN gains
Energy Drains on SMN = medium DPS loss for SMN, which is bad because their DPS is already low-end

You can't compare TP user resource management to SMN MP management in the current system, TP users have it much better than SMN.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Paeon is, as you are obviously aware of, a dps-loss for the bard, which counts as a someone sacrificing their damage output for the sake of sustainability. How big of a dps-loss is using Energy drain over Fester anyway? Especially if you make sure to only use Energy Drain when you know that your MP isn't going to overflow from it and Aetherflow.

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Bard does not count with the other dps as by its nature it is meant to take dps loss, it is written in the description of specific songs. It is a support class, summoner is not (and just having res does not make it so). Bard is supposed to have dps loss every other dps class is not.

I looked through your achievements and see you haven't completed 2nd coil which means you haven't been into final coil yet. As this issue in particular is targeted to final coil summoners I am not sure you truly grasp the depth of this issue.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

I looked through your achievements and see you haven't completed 2nd coil which means you haven't been into final coil yet. As this issue in particular is targeted to final coil summoners I am not sure you truly grasp the depth of this issue.

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I am just trying to provide alternative solutions to the problem. Whether or not I have participated in Final Coil is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

I am just trying to provide alternative solutions to the problem. Whether or not I have participated in Final Coil is irrelevant.

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Except your alternate solution is to cut back on DPS. When groups are clearing as the boss enrages, that's simply not an option.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except your alternate solution is to cut back on DPS. When groups are clearing as the boss enrages, that's simply not an option.

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Wouldn't a small cutback on dps for the sake of better sustainability result in better overall dps? Doing slightly less damage for the sake of never having any complete downtime.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Wouldn't a small cutback on dps for the sake of better sustainability result in better overall dps? Doing slightly less damage for the sake of never having any complete downtime.

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If you absolutely must take a SMN? Maybe. Know what would be even better for DPS? Taking a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

I am just trying to provide alternative solutions to the problem. Whether or not I have participated in Final Coil is irrelevant.

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If the problem was purely just staying afloat on MP, that's no issue, there are ways to do that: MP pots, cutting back on R2 entirely after opener, selective stopping of Ruin, Energy Drain, etc.

The problem is maintaining competitive DPS compared to the other DPS roles while managing those things, and currently, that's just not happening; the TP users are all taken care of together, and BLM doesn't need help, so those guys can go full blast and do their already higher DPS. Whether or not SMN needs a damage buff or not (I think it does from my experience but that's not important), it simply can't transmit its damage in FCoB as much as everyone else can.

This is also useless conversation because everybody see the things in the different way. If SE originally planned SMN should oom at some point, they need reduce potency of some skills, if they wanna keep the balance. Like reduce fester potency for the 230, reduce ruin2 potency for the 70 and increase ruin potency 85 or something like that but infinite mp and never need drain mana anymore. Purpose of our mana control allow us use the damage in the phases where we need it more and thats why it is not same sustained all of the time. Or that is my opinion. But Everybody have their own opinions and some ppl want damage 2 be same amount whole 10min+ fight.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Purpose of our mana control allow us use the damage in the phases where we need it more and thats why it is not same sustained all of the time.

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I think the problem people are getting at is that other jobs don't have this kind of limitation in such severity. For instance, BLM can continue at its max DPS without concern for MP throughout any fight duration... and Melee/Ranged DPS/Tanks can all gain benefit from Paeon, making it far more useful for a BRD to sing that. The only ones who benefit from Ballad and need to concern themselves with MP are Healers, and SMN. Obviously one being way more important than the other.

So as a SMN, we understand that there are ways to manage our MP to improve our longevity in fights, but this restriction does a decent dent in our DPS which means in DPS check or long fights our DPS will tamper off and get further and further away from other jobs.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

I think the problem people are getting at is that other jobs don't have this kind of limitation in such severity. For instance, BLM can continue at its max DPS without concern for MP throughout any fight duration... and Melee/Ranged DPS/Tanks can all gain benefit from Paeon, making it far more useful for a BRD to sing that. The only ones who benefit from Ballad and need to concern themselves with MP are Healers, and SMN. Obviously one being way more important than the other.

So as a SMN, we understand that there are ways to manage our MP to improve our longevity in fights, but this restriction does a decent dent in our DPS which means in DPS check or long fights our DPS will tamper off and get further and further away from other jobs.

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by other jobs you mean only blackmage right?
because all the tp jobs can/should modify their rotation based on fight length to manage tp. (example not fracturing).

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Originally Posted by Staris

by other jobs you mean only blackmage right?
because all the tp jobs can/should modify their rotation based on fight length to manage tp. (example not fracturing).

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They did say "in such severity." Even if we assume the melee classes would be using Fracture for the tiny DPS increase it is, dropping Fracture is nowhere near as severe as dropping Ruin and Ruin II entirely. That's more like a BRD not using Heavy Shot to manage TP.

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

ya and let 3 mages share 1 magical DPS slot. Even if the new mage will have limited resources, you think a bard would play for that one new mage only? Yeah no...

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Seriously, the problem isn't summoner. It is Blm. If it wasn't the only other caster to compare resource management to, this thread wouldn't exist. Melee have the EXACT same resource troubles but it is universal to all melee. That is why there is no complaining about it. The community has accepted it and found a way to deal with the issue. Paeon. If there were enough caster DD classes then party makeups would change to one melee, two casters, and a bard singing ballad when needed.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Seriously, the problem isn't summoner. It is Blm. If it wasn't the only other caster to compare resource management to, this thread wouldn't exist. Melee have the EXACT same resource troubles but it is universal to all melee. That is why there is no complaining about it. The community has accepted it and found a way to deal with the issue. Paeon. If there were enough caster DD classes then party makeups would change to one melee, two casters, and a bard singing ballad when needed.

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In reality there ARE other caster classes you can compare SMN to... WHM and SCH. The problem is that for optimal DPS output a SMN has the same MP costs as a SCH but without the ability to use Aetherflow for as much MP regen as a SCH does, while at the same time not having a passive such as Shroud that gives a huge boost to MP like the WHM.

BLMs aren't the problem as that class was designed for MP regen through self buffs. SMNs lack this.

So, from there we've got a couple of options. A potency increase in the MP regen ability of Aetherflow (we'll ignore ED as that really shouldn't be used by a SMN if at all possible). Perhaps a Shroud-like buff could be added when Aetherflow is at 3 stacks? OR the SMN MP costs need to be reduced.

The damage output of SMNs is fine so long as they don't run their MP dry as fast as they currently do. If their MP drain was scaled such that it'd hit bottom around the same rate as a WHM does then Ballad could be sync'd between those classes and we'd not have issues with "oh, we don't use Ballad for SMNs".