4 Star Master Books - Completely frustrating and unfun.

Ok, bro! You're the best with your 49% lucky synth and Im an absolute nobody. I get out of here fast!

Funny how there were 20+ posts during the first week of patch with people asking how to get the masterbooks and how to get the 4 stars and you were nowhere to be seen at that time, but now you are some sort of super crafter. lol its like those traders on trading forums always boosting how much money they make when they win, but you never hear or see them when they lose money.

But I get out here fast now masta. You obviously crafting god with your 49% lucky synth. I aint worthy.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

Lol@you for talking smack to me.

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You must feel threatened if you took any of that as talking smack. I don't know how it was on Odin but on Lamia, we all stacked philo mats, myth mats, matercraft, oaknots and FC3's before the patch. I hit 4 star on weaver on day one, had most my supra's from before the patch and made my artisans culottes on my first try. Granted i melded my offhand wrong because i was experiment to see how much control it could take but the rotation required little to no work. I could have upgraded all of my classes on day one but i didn't see the benefit of it, instead i sold my supply of mats for a profit and slowly obtained everything at a fraction of the cost.

4* only recently started selling. Primal weapons were more popular. In fact, the crafters who hit 4 star first also ended up quitting the game first or stopped crafting, at least on my server.

Which begs the question, do you want to make a lot of big investments with small profit margins or small investments with large profit margins.

As an example, there are items that costs less than 10k to craft buying all mats from mb and sells for 100k on the board quite regularly. That's 850% mark up.

On the other hand, using you buy all the mats on the board 500k MC, 1050k Sealant, 150k rest. 1.7million for an item that you can potentially sell for 3million which won't sell any time soon at around a 76% mark up assuming you made it HQ.

Now granted it can take 13-14 crafts to make the same gross profit but on the other hand; you are not putting all your eggs in one basket. So was 4 star worth it? Not when other markets are a lot easier to exploit and move a lot quicker.

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

There's no big secret and no "pioneering" I didn't look for info on 4 star rotations, I went with what I knew of making the master books and adjusted.

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But how many people looked for info on how to make the hand-in items for the master 2 books? xD

Most crafters were gated by these books and before all the online guides, there were hardly any 4* crafters in comparison.

To be fair "Truedragon" is a very good crafter and has been selling these items since week one.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

To be fair "Truedragon" is a very good crafter and has been selling these items since week one.

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Does not allow him to act the way he's acting, such attitude doesn't belong in here.

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Does not allow him to act the way he's acting, such attitude doesn't belong in here.

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Asking for handouts and making things easier cause its too hard doesn't belong here either. Oh I forgot, this is the NA section of the OF, so business as usual.

Crafting 3/4* is in a good place. I heard rumors about a 'token' system for crafter gear come 3.0.. now if that is the gate that prevents you from getting all crafts to be capable of the latest synths, THAT is a real problem.

Not sure who asked for handouts, I started this thread to complain that the Master Book II requirements were frustrating to do, and I've done all of them. All 8 books are mine.
But RNG is just not fun.

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Not sure who asked for handouts, I started this thread to complain that the Master Book II requirements were frustrating to do, and I've done all of them. All 8 books are mine.
But RNG is just not fun.

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Posted on 12-20-2014 06:16 AM:

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Way to go square enix for ruining crafting that way.

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Well congratulations on all your master books after everyone and their moms mapped everything for you and leaked everything online. But who am I. I get out here fast now. I just a little noob.

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Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

4* only recently started selling. Primal weapons were more popular. In fact, the crafters who hit 4 star first also ended up quitting the game first or stopped crafting, at least on my server.
...

Now granted it can take 13-14 crafts to make the same gross profit but on the other hand; you are not putting all your eggs in one basket. So was 4 star worth it? Not when other markets are a lot easier to exploit and move a lot quicker.

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On Coeurl, this is not the case at all. I and others have, and still are, selling 4 star daily. I have sold, on the MB, 5 foragers body HQ in the last week alone. 3 sealant (750k) everything else was obtained from desynthing at a profit. Sold them all for 2.98mil each.

When one 4 star item becomes saturated, you just move to another. I gave away 15mil to FC mates for Christmas, and have made that back within a week. 4 star was definitely worth it for me.

Maybe it's just the market for DoH/DoW gear is more sustainable than the DoW/DoM. I just got my BSM and ARM 4* book, but I highly doubt it'll be profitable. I'm on a smaller server and there isn't much interest in getting crafted combat gear that requires melds when they could get more easily obtained tome gear.

That being said my first book, BSM, took a lot of fail. The second one, ARM, I got in with 3 out of 4. The most difficult part of doing these is patience. It's pretty tedious to just reclaim dozens of times to get an optimal condition and you could always just got shafted on the reclaim. Then again I could still be doing something wrong as I've only gotten 2 out of 8.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Asking for handouts and making things easier cause its too hard doesn't belong here either. Oh I forgot, this is the NA section of the OF, so business as usual.

Crafting 3/4* is in a good place. I heard rumors about a 'token' system for crafter gear come 3.0.. now if that is the gate that prevents you from getting all crafts to be capable of the latest synths, THAT is a real problem.

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I'm sorry, but I cannot let this comment stand unanswered. You seem to be under the (false) impression that NA players are somehow looking for "handouts". I, speaking only for myself, simply want our abilities to not be upstaged by luck. Extreme RNG gating is a cheap and cynical way of enforcing rarity, in my opinion, that is used by money-grabbing companies like King and Zynga. If wanting challenging content to be fair and not cheap is a characteristic of North American players, then I offer no apologies for that.

It isn't extreme RNG when many crafters are able to make stuff with high reliability. A prudent crafter will do ample research, play with simulators, then practice on cheap items to get better. These all seem to be things you don't do, which is why you may feel it is "extreme RNG".

i try with putty atm, i got 50/50 HQ, depend of what luck i get, i want a better rate to start these master book or the off hand tools
it force you to play against the rng, i am wanna be sure before i can get into it, but it seem to me without a good luck with you, you will waste some demi materia III

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

i try with putty atm, i got 50/50 HQ, depend of what luck i get, i want a better rate to start these master book or the off hand tools
it force you to play against the rng, i am wanna be sure before i can get into it, but it seem to me without a good luck with you, you will waste some demi materia III

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The idea behind the the Master 2s is basically using Reclaim until you get good RNG. The problem is that Reclaim can still fail and even when it does succeed it consumes the shards/crystals/clusters. The skill portion of this is basically knowing when to Reclaim and when you can fish for a decent success rate.

i can get the 11 stacks with good rng, i don't often get enough CP, i think i need to not pop any tot during the wast not II, by doing that i can hasty touch 11 times, the error is certainly to not refresh Confort zone during the wast not II, it would let me have 10 hasty touch (i just don't need any miss to have the 11 stacks in that case)
i think this craft make people learn more about crafting,
but i can understand why people don't like this, rng on very expensive craft, i can imagine guys reclaim item and loose anyway X times in a raw just by be not lucky

You need to not use WN2 for starters...

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

You need to not use WN2 for starters...

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What's wrong with WNII?

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

What's wrong with WNII?

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Loss of utility. I guess it could be fit into a hasty touch macro, but it adds too much durability for any 100% success macro with current CP limitations.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Loss of utility. I guess it could be fit into a hasty touch macro, but it adds too much durability for any 100% success macro with current CP limitations.

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In terms of durability added isn't it more CP efficient than WNI or doing a 2nd MMII, assuming of course you aren't taking TotT procs during it? I'm talking purely in terms of the Master II turn-ins.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

In terms of durability added isn't it more CP efficient than WNI or doing a 2nd MMII, assuming of course you aren't taking TotT procs during it? I'm talking purely in terms of the Master II turn-ins.

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Why would you not be taking ToT procs during it?

WNII is far less efficient than most other dura saving/restoring skills, when used for manual crafting.

If you take into account the ToT procs missed, it in effect costs you a ton of CP to use.

I would always try and push for a 2nd mend2 or failed that, just use mend1/manip.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

WNII is far less efficient than most other dura saving/restoring skills, when used for manual crafting.

If you take into account the ToT procs missed, it in effect costs you a ton of CP to use.

I would always try and push for a 2nd mend2 or failed that, just use mend1/manip.

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As i said, the only time i won't use MM II is if i didn't have enough early ToT proc's and if it becomes a choice between MM I and WN II, i chose WN II.

2x SH II + MM I = 2x 25 + 1x 92 = 142 CP Spent, covers you for 6 steps and gives you open ended utility towards ToT procs.

2x SH II + WN II = 148 CP Spent and covers you for 8 steps since you changed your dura to x5 gaining an extra step.

Already more cost effective than MM I since you only use 40 dura compared to 60, also allows for use of a max of 2 ToT procs to break even on quality steps.

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Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

As i said, the only time i won't use MM II is if i didn't have enough early ToT proc's and if it becomes a choice between MM I and WN II, i chose WN II.

2x SH II + MM I = 2x 25 + 1x 92 = 142 CP Spent, covers you for 6 steps and gives you open ended utility towards ToT procs.

2x SH II + WN II = 148 CP Spent and covers you for 8 steps since you changed your dura to x5 gaining an extra step.

Already more cost effective than MM I since you only use 40 dura compared to 60, also allows for use of a max of 2 ToT procs to break even on quality steps.

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Why 2x SH2 for mm1?
Serious question, not being sarcastic or anything.

Because I am calculating out a minimum of the cp consumed to perform at least 6 quality steps.

now on the other hand comparing to MM II you have 2x SH II + MM II = 210 cp consumed for 8 quality steps, 3 stacks of SH II left at a total cost of 20 durability.

MM II > WN II > MANIPULATION > MM I > WM I

As an example, this is the rotation i was using for 40 dura items from NQ mats before i could do it RNG free. (BiS CP Melds with a stone soup from npc vendor - 372)
CZ > IQ > SH II > WN II > 4x HT > SH II > 3x HT > MM I > HT > SH > ING II > INN > HT > GS > BB > CS II

Allows for 9 Hasty Touches and a BB under all buffs and it was only made possible by using WN II, point being. If i have the cp for a MM II then i will go for it but if i don't, then i hope i have the cp for a WN II

WN II Rotation with 8 quality steps leaves me at 35/80 dura, 4 steps left.
MM I Rotation with 6 quality steps leaves me at 50/80 dura, 5 steps left.
MM I Rotation with 8 quality steps leaves me at 30/80 dura, 3 steps left.

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Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

Because I am calculating out a minimum of the cp consumed to perform at least 6 quality steps.
now on the other hand comparing to MM II you have 2x SH II + MM II = 210 cp consumed for 8 quality steps, 3 stacks of SH II left at a total cost of 20 durability.

MM II > WN II > MANIPULATION > MM I > WM I

As an example, this is the rotation i was using for 40 dura items from NQ mats before i could do it RNG free. (BiS CP Melds with a stone soup from npc vendor - 372)
CZ > IQ > SH II > WN II > 4x HT > SH II > 3x HT > MM I > HT > SH > ING II > INN > HT > GS > BB > CS II

Allows for 9 Hasty Touches and a BB under all buffs and it was only made possible by using WN II, point being. If i have the cp for a MM II then i will go for it but if i don't, then i hope i have the cp for a WN II

WN II Rotation with 8 quality steps leaves me at 35/80 dura, 4 steps left.
MM I Rotation with 6 quality steps leaves me at 50/80 dura, 5 steps left.
MM I Rotation with 8 quality steps leaves me at 30/80 dura, 3 steps left.

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When I do a MMI, I am usually at around 150 CP 30 dura and 7~ stacks of IQ and 3-4 CZ (this just happened while I was reading this post). My method (3-4 star) at this point is to use MMI+SH2+HTx3+GS (BB if good/ex) if enough CP due to a ToT before GS, then SH, if not CS2 BB then CS2. This rarely happens and is usually only if 1-2 ToT procs happened before I would normally MM2, if more then I just MM2 as it's all good. I will look at it later and see if that WNII would actually work with my methods and give me any benefit at that point. Although, I am not sure what skill I would remove to add it.

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Originally Posted by Rath

When I do a MMI, I am usually at around 150 CP 30 dura and 7~ stacks of IQ and 3-4 CZ (this just happened while I was reading this post). My method (3-4 star) at this point is to use MMI+SH2+HTx3+GS (BB if good/ex) if enough CP due to a ToT before GS, then SH, if not CS2 BB then CS2. This rarely happens and is usually only if 1-2 ToT procs happened before I would normally MM2, if more then I just MM2 as it's all good. I will look at it later and see if that WNII would actually work with my methods and give me any benefit at that point. Although, I am not sure what skill I would remove to add it.

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Edit: To be more precise.

A rotation with a MMII + MMI requires a single ToT proc to complete and allows for a MAX of 11 HT.
A rotation with a MMII + WNII requires a single ToT proc to complete and allows for a MAX of 12 HT.
A rotation with 2x MMII requires a minimum of 5 ToT proc to complete, 4 if you run BB at 90% and allows for a MAX of 14 HT.

Edit 2:

The nice thing about a 2x MMII rotation is that if you get lucky and have even more ToT proc's you can transition into a WN I rotation to get a MAX of 16 HT but requires a total of 9 ToT proc to complete, 8 if you run BB at 90% or 7 if you run 2 of the HTs at 50%

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Originally Posted by Rath

snip

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I find that WNII is useful if you aren't getting enough TotT procs to do a MMII x2 and still have CP for the Great Strides/BB phase. I have tried MMII and honestly if you are getting enough TotT you can run your synth on for a while, which is very nice obviously.

I'm not sure if this is even a good approach, but I've been having better success with getting IQ to about 8 stacks and then using the extra CP to wait out an Excellent + Great Strides proc. With enough CP I can have Comfort Zone up during this and usually get about 10 steps in by cycling GS+Observe/Innovation+TotT procs. I don't keep SH up to save CP. GS+Excellent+IQ 8 or more is >95% if not more. I know 11 stacks or Reclaim is kind of the accepted approach (at least from reading posts) a Good is about 75% or so. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've just found that most of my HQs have been on Excellents from runs where I had IQ at less than 10 due to unfortunate luck with Hasty Touch.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

I'm not sure if this is even a good approach, but I've been having better success with getting IQ to about 8 stacks and then using the extra CP to wait out an Excellent + Great Strides proc. With enough CP I can have Comfort Zone up during this and usually get about 10 steps in by cycling GS+Observe/Innovation+TotT procs. I don't keep SH up to save CP. GS+Excellent+IQ 8 or more is >95% if not more. I know 11 stacks or Reclaim is kind of the accepted approach (at least from reading posts) a Good is about 75% or so. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've just found that most of my HQs have been on Excellents from runs where I had IQ at less than 10 due to unfortunate luck with Hasty Touch.

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Sounds like your doing something wrong if your on 8 stacks and fishing for "Excellent" to be honest O.o

I don't think it's about doing something wrong. It's about might as well fish on this synth where I got bad rng. I've gotten 100% a couple of times with 8 stacks where i just ended up getting bad rng and fighting my way to 8 stacks, hit reclaim and fish for excellent because I have nothing to lose at that point.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

I don't think it's about doing something wrong. It's about might as well fish on this synth where I got bad rng. I've gotten 100% a couple of times with 8 stacks where i just ended up getting bad rng and fighting my way to 8 stacks, hit reclaim and fish for excellent because I have nothing to lose at that point.

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That does not seem to be the same as what the above poster is doing.

If you have enough CP left to fish for 10 steps, then you are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

That does not seem to be the same as what the above poster is doing.

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No he's pretty much nailed it. I'll draw out a synth if it has at least 8 IQ and just cycle as long as I can afford to have GS and enough for BB. If I am willing to take a 90% on a Reclaim then I'm willing to take a 90% on 8 stacks + Excellent + GS + unprotected BB. 8 stacks on Rumination is enough to give you 55 for Reclaim at the end combined with the 24 I'd be saving for BB. It's basically a contingency plan.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If you have enough CP left to fish for 10 steps, then you are doing something wrong.

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Sometimes you know early enough in the synth you won't be getting 11 stacks, however getting 8 stacks is achievable with some subpar luck. In this case, no you won't get 10 steps, you might get 1 or 2 GS before having to Rumination and Reclaim. An Excellent on 8 stacks and a GS is better than a Good on 11 stacks and a GS, as far as I know, and if you know you won't get 11 stacks with your current run then burning CP to get just 9 or 10 is a waste.

If you intentionally plan a synth around getting only 8 stacks and fishing for an Excellent then it's very possible to get 10 or more steps at the end to fish with a Comfort Zone up and a little luck from TotT procs.

My point here is that "11 stacks or Reclaim" is a bit of a hasty plan. If you have at least 8 stacks it's still salvageable and if you have Rumination there is almost no consequence for doing so.

I could very well be missing some crucial step that ensures 11 stacks every single time, but I've found that if you get some rough luck on your Hasty Touches, Rapid Synths, or Good procs for TotT then getting 11 is just sometimes not possible.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

SNiP

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This is just a massive NO and terrible advice. It is better to lose 1 synth than to finish 10 normal quality. Rumination shouldn't even be on your list of skills to use.

<11 stacks = reclaim
11 stacks = GS + INNO(fish for better condition) + CS II (fish for better condition)

Finish the synth.

Doing this, you will get 3-4 normal quality and 3 high quality. With maybe one or two reclaims failed, this is a lot better than 10+ normal quality and 3 high quality.

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Originally Posted by xPeAcEx

This is just a massive NO and terrible advice. It is better to lose 1 synth than to finish 10 normal quality. Rumination shouldn't even be on your list of skills to use.

<11 stacks = reclaim
11 stacks = GS + INNO(fish for better condition) + CS II (fish for better condition)

Finish the synth.

Doing this, you will get 3-4 normal quality and 3 high quality. With maybe one or two reclaims failed, this is a lot better than 10+ normal quality and 3 high quality.

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I'm a bit confused. How would anything I listed result in an NQ? Rumination guarantees Reclaim. Excellent + 8 Stacks + GS is like 95% HQ, if not 100%. You are basically Reclaiming for anything other than Excellent on 8 with a Great Strides, which is made possible by using Rumination.

Like Sibyll said Rumination guarantees a Reclaim and I personally think it is a highly underrated skill. While everyone else is cashing their chips in on a less then 11 Inner Quiet I only reclaim if I'm out of options and use Rumination instead of BB.

I had a lot of fun with this. Sure it was a gil sink but any crafter reaching 4 star can generate millions a day anyway so I just saw it as a reinvestment. I was able on Armorsmith, Goldsmith and Culinarian to finish this using the Artisan Tool and Militia Offhand, giving me stats at the time of 404 Craftmanship, 391 Control and 395 CP with food. Sure there is a lot of RNG to it, and Reclaim is used a lot, but if you don't give up and refine your rotation it works out well. I recorded my experience of doing this on Goldsmith here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YH2AewMPRM. I'm glad to have all of it finished of course so I can work on recovering some Gil before Patch 2.5 comes out.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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For WVR, and especially LTW and BSM, you'd be hard pressed to try to fit rumination along with everything else you'd need, considering that they only have 1-2 inherent skills to free up their available cross skills. (BB, HT, SHII, Reclaim, INNO, CSII, TotT, CZ, RS, PbP is 10 skills I consider absolutely necessary, and BSM/LTW inherently do not have those skills and cannot pick up manipulation or rumination). Though I guess you could drop SHII for it, but that 70% touch tho.

Though I do agree that the crafts should be seen til the very end for the off chance of getting an excellent (which has gotten me 100% with 7 stacks at the lowest, granted I might have gotten another excellent on a touch). Otherwise, I'd just reserve 55 cp to be able to reclaim (after using GS, inno and SH). In the scenario of having 7-8 stacks, reserving 55 CP won't even give you enough leeway to do more than a single basic touch, bumping your total stacks to 8-9 (which isn't enough, getting as high as 85% with a good condition).

If you're fishing at 8 stacks you're already doing something wrong.

At best, you should be fishing for a good and not relying on an excellent, 11 stacks is easy to get and if you can't then you're doing something really wrong. Meaning you shouldn't need rumination at all.

1) PbP
2) RS
3) HT
4) BB
5) CZ
6) ToT
7) WN II
8) SH II
9) ING II
10) INNO
11) RECLAIM

Careful Synthesis II is NOT needed, Basic Synthesis is more than enough to finish up. If you are fishing at 8 stacks for en excellent condition, you are going to fish for a very long time, not only does that make it a poor rotation for master books but a poor rotation for anything in general.

EDIT: That is not to say that Rumination is a bad skill, in fact it is a great skill when used early in a 3 star to recover 6 cp or 14 cp if none of the RS or HTs failed.

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Originally Posted by Mithrie

SNiP

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Sometimes you have good videos that are very informative and other times you have such inefficient videos where i question if you actually know how the skills you use work. At 13minutes, and during that craft.

1) CZ should be refreshed whenever possible because you can usually fit in a 3rd.
2) You said you wasted a step in WN II but that isn't true because you get the same amount of steps.

Example, on an 80 dura item with WN II, you get 12 possible maximum steps.
SH II + WN II + SH II refresh = 45/80 dura, used 7 steps. 45 dura is 5 steps left, so 12 possible maximum steps, so no step was wasted :P

3) Why would you ever pick ING II over Innovation in a 3 or 4 star craft? If anything you had the cp for both, but your order should have been GS > INNO > ING 2 > BB

4) This one is nit picking but wouldn't it be better to save your ING II and CS II for the end of the synth so you can have more fishing opportunities.

5) I don't know why but i kept watching and you gave out bad advice 19:36, if you have a stack of CZ left and you use CZ, u do NOT get 8 cp back. What you are doing is clipping the CZ meaning you don't recover 14 cp but only 6 cp total.

My first two master books, I probably did about 18 NQs for 6 HQs. The remaining 6? Probably 1 NQ for 3 HQ. I had no supra tools for those 6 books. Had max melded gear and new artisan tool. You can't follow those rotations blindly. Take chances. Don't waste SH2 on PbP. Take the chance that 81% of the time, 2 PbP will succeed. If short on CP, skip SH1 for Innovation. If given the choice, I'd spend 18 CP on a Basic Touch near the end to get me to 11 stacks instead of 22 CP on SH to be sure BB lands. Don't get me wrong. It is great to have SH, GS, Inn up for BB. But, if saving that 96 CP for those 4 abilities is hamstringing your ability to get to 10+ stacks, trade up the SH and Inn for 2 Basic Touch. If you are on your last two chances at HT before you need to BB/CS2... trade that CP for 2 BT instead. A 90% shot at a great chance of HQ is likely better than a 100% shot at a smaller chance of HQ.