Eternal Bonding & Forced Downgrading

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Haven't courts ruled that ToS agreements are not legally binding simply by being ToS agreements that you clicked yes to? In Bragg v. Linden Research, inc (a case relating to Second Life), it was put forth that ToS agreements are not binding when they are contracts of adhesion ("take it or leave it" agreements) (again, IANAL).

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Yup, pretty much. Just wanted to throw that out there because I know at least one person would try to dismiss the whole thing by saying ToS like it means anything legally.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Sad that there is no response on this thread (even though 5 other threads got official responses today). This is a really important thread to look at.

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That's precisely why they're not making a response. Not interested. Like other threads with "negative feedback" it will be closed because "bad post", "negative behaviour", etc, etc...

Nyalia said it perfectly. I really want to see an answer from devs, because right now we're not talking about "meh, this grind sucks, this is boring, rng is bad". No, we're talking about stealing player's real money

I'm holding out hope that this is a bug and the impacted parties will get the bonus items they paid for.

I don't see any legitimate reason why the system should even allow this scenario. There should be no option at all that leads to "you spent $20 but we're not going to give you ANY of what you what you paid for". The fact that this can happen is either a huge oversight or SE being incredibly snaky and trying to make extra profit from people not reading the fine print.

I'm really hoping it's the former.

I posted this in the the localization section earlier, but I think a lot of the confusion is just the result of the way the disclaimer was translated from Japanese.

In Japanese, the part about "when making arrangements for the ceremony" actually wasn't there, and that adds confusion because people might think it's just talking about the ceremony options. In Japanese, it says that the resulting plan is based on that order of priority, with free taking priority over gold/platinum.

I do still believe that, from a consumer protection standpoint, the idea of paying $20 under the assumption you'll receive certain services and then receiving nothing because of the actions of another is a bit shaky, even with the disclaimers. But I think the confusion was made worse with the specific choice of wording used when translating the disclaimer from Japanese to English and the other languages.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

I don't see any legitimate reason why the system should even allow this scenario. There should be no option at all that leads to "you spent $20 but we're not going to give you ANY of what you what you paid for". The fact that this can happen is either a huge oversight or SE being incredibly snaky and trying to make extra profit from people not reading the fine print.

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Especially when you consider that there's absolutely no reason it should ever allow you to use a platinum or gold bracelet when your partner is using a free one, because... you know, you could just get one for free at any time and use that instead. Why would they let you use it?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Especially when you consider that there's absolutely no reason it should ever allow you to use a platinum or gold bracelet when your partner is using a free one, because... you know, you could just get one for free at any time and use that instead. Why would they let you use it?

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Exactly this. Or before you use them have an extra warning pop up: your bracelets are of different ranks, if you continue you will not receive the ceremony benefits or items of [gold/platinum]. Do you still wish to proceed?

As it is now it's unclear, confusing and very unfair.

Either the description or the way it's implemented in game needs to change.

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Originally Posted by seida

Exactly this. Or before you use them have an extra warning pop up: your bracelets are of different ranks, if you continue you will not receive the ceremony benefits or items of [gold/platinum]. Do you still wish to proceed?

As it is now it's unclear, confusing and very unfair.

Either the description or the way it's implemented in game needs to change.

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They'd need to take out the word ceremony, or add "including quest rewards gained with the platinum purchase" The confusion between the ceremony and the item rewards are why this mess happened in the first place.

Edit: I missed the "or Items"part, yours works fine sorry.

I've noticed the dev's/ mods are making sure to stay away from this post lol

They weren't very descriptive about what about the eternal bond system they're fixing tonight, but hopefully it'll be this.

Not that I'm affected by this at all, but I do sympathize for those who are.

I doubt it but we shall see (:

They're probably fixing the errors noted at the bottom of the patch notes. Maybe fixing the tradeability issue as well, while they've got the system down.

It'd be super nice if they'd fix this, seeing as people are literally spending money on nothing in some cases (nothing you can't get in the free version anyway).

Devs, still waiting your response. Don't let this thread die~~~

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

They're probably fixing the errors noted at the bottom of the patch notes. Maybe fixing the tradeability issue as well, while they've got the system down.

It'd be super nice if they'd fix this, seeing as people are literally spending money on nothing in some cases (nothing you can't get in the free version anyway).

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The maintenance note said they were specifically fixing issues with Eternal Bond. However, I'm not seeing any followup... Anyone know what they did?

SE........please fix this issue. It's either that or SE knows this is a quick way to get people money..........kinda of a scam. They should have made the text bigger!!

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

The maintenance note said they were specifically fixing issues with Eternal Bond. However, I'm not seeing any followup... Anyone know what they did?

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It looks like in Step 2 where it says "In the event both you and your partner have different promise wristlets equipped, the wristlet of lesser value .... "
the second half of the sentence that read "will take priority when making arrangements for the ceremony"
has been changed to "will determine the service plan for both players when undertaking the quest "The Ties that Bind.""

Probably going to have to wait on the devs to find out if people that got screwed by the previous wording are going to get a refund/the items they paid for or not.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Cain

the second half of the sentence that read "will take priority when making arrangements for the ceremony"
has been changed to "will determine the service plan for both players when undertaking the quest "The Ties that Bind."".

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Well, thats an important change and.... no news in the main page? Looks like this is working as intended and they fixed the text ("woooops"). So this is still a scam...

Still unclear. It only specifies that it determines the service plan during the quest. How does that relate to the reward items that you paid for in the cash shop? There are pictures of items, and a price tag, and buying the cash shop item still does not equal getting the items.

Instead of:

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* In the event both you and your partner have different promise wristlets equipped, the wristlet of lesser value (standard < gold < platinum) will determine the service plan for both players when undertaking the quest "The Ties that Bind."

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It needs to say something like:

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* In the event both you and your partner have different promise wristlets equipped when you undertake the quest "The Ties that Bind," the wristlet of lesser value (standard < gold < platinum) will determine the service plan and quest reward items for both players.

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Or, more bluntly:

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* In the event both you and your partner have different promise wristlets equipped when you undertake the quest "The Ties that Bind," the wristlet of lesser value (standard < gold < platinum) will determine the service plan and quest reward items (mount, attire, etc) for both players. Undertaking the quest will also destroy your promise wristlets and you will not be able to recover them without paying the fee again.

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Or, completely transparently:

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* In the event both you and your partner have different promise wristlets equipped when you undertake the quest "The Ties that Bind," we will steal your money and give you no restitution or recompense. Consider yourself warned.

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Wow, so it is "working as intended"... That's disheartening.

Not sure if most of you have seen this thread, but it adds yet another level of awful to this mess. Even clicking 'no' when you see the warning doesn't necessarily save you.

SE Please make I so our partners can make changes to our private house if we so choose!!!!!!!!!111

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Not sure if most of you have seen this thread, but it adds yet another level of awful to this mess. Even clicking 'no' when you see the warning doesn't necessarily save you.

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Oh my gods, that's horrible! Again, why are you even allowed to use wristlets of differing levels? There's no reason for it except to steal money from people who don't know any better. Is this deliberate marketing malice or more horribly localized info? Seriously, some of their localization team members should have been fired over some of these errors and ambiguities, especially the "the ceremony will be downgraded" mess.

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Originally Posted by LyonHeart15

SE Please make I so our partners can make changes to our private house if we so choose!!!!!!!!!111

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Completely off topic. Please create a new thread or post in an old thread about it (there's at least one somewhere).

We're waiting SE

They're busy scrooge mcduck-ing all the the eternal bond money they're rolling in now. Please look forward to it.

The page (and the quest itself) say that the ceremony will be downgraded if your partner doesn't buy the same plan that you do. And for the ceremony, that makes sense. After all, you can't really have the two players getting different ceremonies when they marry each other.

For the items on the other hand, neither of those is true. It makes no sense for one player's items to be based on what their partner did or didn't buy. Nor does the site indicate that it will happen. If somebody pays for the platinum wedding items, then they're entitled to actually receive those platinum wedding items that they paid money for.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The page (and the quest itself) say that the ceremony will be downgraded if your partner doesn't buy the same plan that you do. And for the ceremony, that makes sense. After all, you can't really have the two players getting different ceremonies when they marry each other.

For the items on the other hand, neither of those is true. It makes no sense for one player's items to be based on what their partner did or didn't buy. Nor does the site indicate that it will happen. If somebody pays for the platinum wedding items, then they're entitled to actually receive those platinum wedding items that they paid money for.

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Since last night, they changed the wording on the site as shown above to clearly say the quest will be downgraded. IMO, the new wording is still terrible and ambiguous, though it is probably better than the old wording.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Since last night, they changed the wording on the site as shown above to clearly say the quest will be downgraded. IMO, the new wording is still terrible and ambiguous, though it is probably better than the old wording.

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Even if they fix the description on the site, it wouldn't change the fact that it's wrong to charge someone for something and then not give them what they paid for. It makes no sense to say the groom can't be in a Tailcoat of Eternal Devotion if his bride is wearing a Gown of Eternal Innocence or vice-versa. The various combinations of gear all work fine together. The venue, decorations, ceremony, etc, need to be coordinated between the two players, as they shouldn't be seeing a different ceremony from each other, but there's no reason for that to affect any of the items the players get. So the only way that makes any sense is the way they initially described it, that it's only the ceremony that gets downgraded to the lowest common denominator.

(Besides, I don't consider the new wording on the site to be fixed. They do seem to have removed the mention that it's the ceremony that gets downgraded, but they didn't put anything in its place, leaving the page without any real explanation I could find of what exactly it is that gets downgraded.)

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Honestly this is going to keep happening whether they change the wording or not until they change how the system works.

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Exactly. You can't fix an inherently deceitful system just by explaining it a bit more clearly.

Honestly this is going to keep happening whether they change the wording or not until they change how the system works.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Honestly this is going to keep happening whether they change the wording or not until they change how the system works.

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Yeah, and the part that bugs me is that the change to the wording means that they WANT it to keep happening. If they didn't want there to be a way for players to spend money and get nothing in return, the system would prevent it. I can't think of any benign reason why this would be allowed, but if someone can think of a reasonable one, I'd be happy to hear it. The whole thing really makes me uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Yeah, and the part that bugs me is that the change to the wording means that they WANT it to keep happening. If they didn't want there to be a way for players to spend money and get nothing in return, the system would prevent it. I can't think of any benign reason why this would be allowed, but if someone can think of a reasonable one, I'd be happy to hear it. The whole thing really makes me uncomfortable.

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I completely agree with you yet they can answer every other question on the forum but this one lol

I personally think this all could have been avoided if SE made it so that people MUST have the same type of plan in order to begin the EB quest.

Why on earth is it even possible to use different ones if its a waste?

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Originally Posted by Fue

Why on earth is it even possible to use different ones if its a waste?

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My best guess it's that it's some weird limitation of the questing system that underlies the game; like it can either check if a specific item is equipped or a certain type of item is equipped, but not if both parties are wearing the exact same matching item. Rather than rework the underlying code, they figured they'd put a warning on the store so that people wouldn't be encouraged to do it (and unfortunately the original wording of that warning was a bit confusing in English; the new one is better but still not as clear as it could be).

A bump for the thread. It absolutely deserves to answered by devs as this sets a very worrying precedent for future cash shop purchases. Whenever real money is involved, the verbiage on the website needs to be explicitly clear as to what, exactly the purchase entails. In this case, it does say in several cases, that the individuals band yields individual rewards. It should have been made clear at time of purchase that both members require the same tier of band... Sorry, but SE should absolutely refund anyone who got messed up here.


More importantly, why does it allow you to do the quest with different tiers of band... What logical reason would there be to buy a 20 dollar item and get nothing from it? No one in their right mind would purchase this with the intent of getting nothing.

wrong concept, BOTH dont need to pay. One can buy BOTH and give one to the loved one, it just needs to do it before starting the quest for the EB and before buying the second one.

so really..only one paying is enough..but it needs to be bought in duo pack..

Mei

The only logical reason why you can start the quest with bracelets of differing values is that SE is a dishonest company that wants to steal money from their customers. The only other reason (which is far from logical) is that the designers of this content are not malicious, but instead really, really dumb. I tend to assume people aren't morons, so I'm going to have to say this was a cunning plan to steal money from customers.

This means that I'm also assuming the localization team aren't incompetent at their jobs, which means that the website wording issues were intentional (more heart prisms being unobtainable on the Platinum plan despite the website saying you can buy more, mentions of the ceremony or quest being downgraded instead of the rewards, etc). So, if they're not morons who should be fired over this, then instead, they are malicious and trying to steal money from honest customers who don't know any better.

False advertising abounds - I really hope someone sues. See, that's the problem with cash-shop-related content - it falls under Customer Protection laws, which wouldn't have been true if only gil was involved. Steal our gil? We have no restitution and that's fine. It's just virtual money. Steal our cash? Illegal and grounds for a lawsuit.

Good job, SE. Hope your stock takes a hit over this.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

....that wants to steal money from their customers. The only other reason (which is far from logical) is that the designers of this content are not malicious, but instead really, really dumb. I tend to assume people aren't morons, so I'm going to have to say this was a cunning plan to steal money from customers.

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That's precisely the problem. Right now i don't know what to think: are they stealing on purpose or is just incompetence?. Neither of them is a good option... The fact devs aren't responding to this thread makes me think we're not talking about incompetence here, so...........................................

I know we can't trust yoshida/dev team,etc regarding patch content (housing, etc) and i'm "ok" with (it's not ok, but you know what i mean), but... i'm starting to think: is it really worth to keep paying for a game from this untrustworthy company?

Mods you're obviously reading the forums so give us answers.

Hey guys, i've only posted in 1 other thread before that isn't Eorzeas Next Top Model related, but ive been reading this one every day and i just wanted to tell any of you who havent had this problem resolved i'm so sorry. :( it's a reall sad situation and i hope SE gives you the items you paid for.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Still unclear. It only specifies that it determines the service plan during the quest. How does that relate to the reward items that you paid for in the cash shop?

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Because they've previously used the term "service plan" to indicate the bracelet bought - ceremony and item rewards altogether.

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Ceremony Service Plans

In order to hold a Ceremony of Eternal Bonding, players must submit an application via the FINAL FANTASY XIV: Mog Station.

You can choose from one of three plans: standard, gold, and platinum.

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So if they say that the service plan will be determined by the lesser bracelet, it means exactly that. If one person chooses the free service plan and another chooses the gold or platinum service plan, both get the free service plan -- which, yes, includes the downgrade of item rewards.


That said, I agree with the rest of you. They really should have chosen a better way of implementing things, and that item rewards should still be the same -- although it gets more confusing when you consider the Magicked Prism (heart) that's only available to one service plan, and the gift rewards to guests which are also item rewards.

And I agree that the text should be changed around to "[...]different promise wristlets equipped when undertaking the quest 'The Ties that Bind', the wristlet of lesser value[...]" to further clarify the sentence. And I'm of the opinion that the mail you get the bracelet in should repeat this warning.

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Originally Posted by EorzeasNTM

Hey guys, i've only posted in 1 other thread before that isn't Eorzeas Next Top Model related

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Not really pertaining to the discussion, but holy moly, Rongi - that's some ENTM-related post count you've got XD

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Originally Posted by dice137

I personally think this all could have been avoided if SE made it so that people MUST have the same type of plan in order to begin the EB quest.

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This was part of the update they did on Thursday morning

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Both you and your partner must have identical promise wristlets to undertake the quest

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Also, on the EB site, on the "Application and Fees" tab, under the Gold/Platinum plans, it says

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$20.00
($10.00 per person)

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and

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$40.00
($20.00 per person)

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which to me kinda says that a total of $20 or $40 needs to be paid for the Gold or Platinum plans, respectively

PS- I am not defending the issue, just that with a little common sense, it is a little more clear

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Not really pertaining to the discussion, but holy moly, Rongi - that's some ENTM-related post count you've got XD

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Try hosting a Cycle and your post count will sooooar! haha

Have those of you who accidentally lost your chance at these items get in contact with a GM? Or are you all still waiting? Keep us updated!! This thread has seriously broken my heart and I need to know before the next billing Cycle how SE handled this. ; ;