The pull factor of Pay to Play

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Originally Posted by Delily

As absolutely NOTHING in the cash shop impact core game play, I don't care. As long as content is paid for by subscription fees, I don't mind.

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http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/e...p-shopping.png

Doesn't bother me in the slightest that the store is here. It's 100% cosmetic and when I see people with the rewards I only think to myself "wow, what a waste," but never do I think to myself "holy crap I just have to get that or I won't progress." So I can live with it even though this is p2p. The size of the free content patches are so large that a few mounts or pets are easily ignored.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

Everything in the cash shop is content that isn't paid for by subscription fees. You are delusional.

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Minions, dyes, and a "premium" wedding experience are not content. They are not an experience. They are vanity items.

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Are you concerned that development time might be spent on making cash shop items rather than core game play? It certainly seems to have a better effort/reward ratio than developing new battle content.

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Not at all. Minions, mounts, and dyes are reskins of existing items, the development time on them, as compared to new armor sets, quests, and stories is negligible.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Has the introduction of items behind a pay wall meant the game has lost its P2P pull factor to you?

Was the fact that it was purely P2P never a factor in your purchase?

Has the game gotten better because of the cash shop in your eyes?

To those of you for whom it is an issue, is it enough of an issue to cause you to cancel your sub?

To both sides: Do you see a difference in paying for Server Transfers compared to paying for Minions, how about paying for Fantasias?

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1. It is wearing it's pull on me. The only real thing that bothers me, is the Marriage thing...that is a real annoyance and it seems it was done with the intent of people "needing" it vs. wanting it. I don't like that one bit...but not enough to make me quit.

2. Yes, it was a factor, it was a very important factor. Even though I love FF series, if it was F2P, I would not have joined.

3. I'm sure the game has been improved behind the scenes in some ways, but one example of it not getting better is, again, the spending of our hard earned cash on putting the "better" wedding experience behind a cash shop.

4. No.

5. Yes, a server transfer is a special, should be one time thing, because otherwise people will take advantage of it, and make this wonderful (for the most part in my experience) community suffer.


@Yoshida-san, and team. This is one of those instances that you as game players should realize how annoying this is, and if you are trying to find the limit, you guys are playing a dangerous game. You guys may be gamblers, but please look to "Xbox One" as an example of what the gaming community is capable of doing.

You guys can make more money sure...but in the long run is it more than what it could have been? I hope you guys can answer this with real facts and data. remember 10,000 tests is the minimum to get more accurate results.

-Tari

p.s

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Not going to lie, I'm somewhat reconsidering preordering heavensward. I kinda want to wait and see if they take it too far with the cash shop at that point.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Minions, dyes, and a "premium" wedding experience are not content.

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Yes, they are. Everything in the game is content. These are things that were created, and then cut out of the proper game to put into a cash shop to get extra money out of you. EVERYTHING is content, not just Coil.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/e...p-shopping.png

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Aren't you cute. I don't have to buy anything in the cash shop to finish dungeon runs, quests, participate in PvP, or craft gear. Talk to me once that happens.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

Yes, they are. Everything in the game is content. These are things that were created, and then cut out of the proper game to put into a cash shop to get extra money out of you. EVERYTHING is content, not just Coil.

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They are cosmetic vanity items. Content is quests, dungeons, etc. I mean we can keep playing semantics here, if you want.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Aren't you cute. I don't have to buy anything in the cash shop to finish dungeon runs, quests, participate in PvP, or craft gear. Talk to me once that happens.

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Ok, I will.

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Originally Posted by Delily

They are cosmetic vanity items. Content is quests, dungeons, etc. I mean we can keep playing semantics here, if you want.

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Cosmetic vanity items are a part of the game. Once upon a time, these things would have been quest rewards, or rare drops. Now? They shoved it into the cash shop because people like you are so valiantly whiteknighting it.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Ok, I will.

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Don't hold you breath. WoW's cash shop has been out for 5 years now.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

Cosmetic vanity items are a part of the game. Once upon a time, these things would have been quest rewards, or rare drops. Now? They shoved it into the cash shop because people like you are so valiantly whiteknighting it.

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So, whiteknighting is now defending a business practice that has proven to be successful?

Not going to lie, I'm somewhat reconsidering preordering heavensward. I kinda want to wait and see if they take it too far with the cash shop at that point.

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Originally Posted by Delily

So, whiteknighting is now defending a business practice that has proven to be successful?

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Being successful doesn't make it good, or right. Neither does the fact that WoW does it.

Does anyone have an official definition of "content"? Otherwise the semantics arguments are going absolutely nowhere.

So far there's nothing in the cash shop that interests me. My sub is still getting me everything I want out of the game and a lot more besides. It doesn't get me everything there is, but it's still a good deal for my money. If that ever changes, I will obviously stop buying it. That said, it is a concern that I will be keeping a close eye on. I'm wary about the implications for Gold Saucer...

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Originally Posted by Sholah

Being successful doesn't make it good, or right. Neither does the fact that WoW does it.

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So, now you're the arbiter of what is good and right?

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Originally Posted by Renik

For the first time since the first day of 1.0 alpha, i want to see this game die...

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So do I.

I helped support the game when it needed us to survive. I did it because I believed in the cry for help from the devs and the company. I figured they really wanted to create a game for us, the players. That the money would come from our loyalty and ear-to-mouth subscriptions.
I was grossly mistaken. It was simply a cry of hunger... for money. And now that the game is doing "well" financially, the mask has fallen. Apparently having ethics and principles is too much asking.

I regret funding this game and this company. SE is like EA...

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Originally Posted by Sholah

Being successful doesn't make it good, or right. Neither does the fact that WoW does it.

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This, a million times, this.

Homeopathy is a successful "business", but that doesn't change the fact that it is utter bullcrap that exists for no other reason but to take advantage of lesser educated minds. Cash shops in a pay to play MMO are pretty much exactly the same (we even have the same pathetic justification of the placebo effect; I'm sure that extra money is being put back into the game... Extra Retainers have been around for a while, and look at all the extra improvements we've seen because of that little pay to win piece of content! Why, I hardly ever 90k in Frontlines since they added that!). Sheeple will buy it up and make it successful, and other sheeple will be too shortsighted to see the implications of letting a company get away with such utter ridiculousness. Stupidity and shortsightedness seem to be the target markets for a lot in the games industry these days. Sad to see SE is no different, more so after this relaunch was so promising; "Another failure like that would ruin us!", "We need to rebuild our fans faith in the series!", glad to see they took those lessons to heart... Sigh...

I'm looking forward to 4.0; Final Fantasy XIV: All the Bravest. Anyone with some photoshop skills feel like making that, actually? It'd make a great signature, the splash art behind the logo could just be a dollar sign or something.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

this part is the trouble.... definite me advantage? for each person it will varie... because of this more and more step in the wrong sense are taken by SE, because until player can prove that it an advantage, they can virtually add anything they want in the cash shop.
just a reminder we are in a video game... everything is virtual and by this it can be take as...everything is... optional!

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I think you failed to understand that post. Advantage as in giving the best possible raid gear which will make your character quite OP. Nothing in the cash shop does such a thing. Yet people are overreacting to the cash shop..which in all honesty is no surprise to me on this forum. People overreact to almost everything here.

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Originally Posted by Delily

So, now you're the arbiter of what is good and right?

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Are you going to refute my point or just call names and try and paint me as the bad guy?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Not at all. Minions, mounts, and dyes are reskins of existing items, the development time on them, as compared to new armor sets, quests, and stories is negligible.

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That's sort of what I was getting at. Would you as a director set aside a half-dozen people to make a new raid, with a new dungeon, new mob types and bosses to introduce 5-6 new item designs for those playing the sub, or would you set aside those same six people to churn out 30+ new items for the cash shop. Unless you think that new raid will bring in more revenue than the vanity items the best business case is to make teh vanity items.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

That's sort of what I was getting at. Would you as a director set aside a half-dozen people to make a new raid, with a new dungeon, new mob types and bosses to introduce 5-6 new item designs for those playing the sub, or would you set aside those same six people to churn out 30+ new items for the cash shop. Unless you think that new raid will bring in more revenue than the vanity items the best business case is to make the vanity items.

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Not necessarily, you are gambling whether one will make more money or not. As while the other has decades of "testing" if you will as a source of truth. That new, non-extra-paying, content keeps people entertained, while being an entertaining industry keeping people entertained seems priority.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, look at "Xbox One" a lot of people may not vote, but if put up against a wall...they will and they usually vote for the better deal (not necessarily the cheapest).

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Originally Posted by Meshico

That new, non-extra-paying, content keeps people entertained, while being an entertaining industry keeping people entertained seems priority.

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Yes, but your goal would be to divert the minimum resource necessary to battle/systems content to keep from losing subs while using the remaining resource to create instant revenue. Without a cash shop you would divert all resource to battle/systems content.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Minions, dyes, and a "premium" wedding experience are not content. They are not an experience. They are vanity items.



Not at all. Minions, mounts, and dyes are reskins of existing items, the development time on them, as compared to new armor sets, quests, and stories is negligible.

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Really?? Way to contradict your own post.
Please I would love to here how the "premium" wedding experience is not an experience.

For me The selling point was that it's a FF game. With things I like most being behind a pay wall its making me think I should start to look elsewhere. I used to log in daily for 5 or 6 hours at a time now I'm on less than an hour a week. I used to be able to get everything I wanted with effort and time now I have to consider spending extra money on things. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Yes, but your goal would be to divert the minimum resource necessary to battle/systems content to keep from losing subs while using the remaining resource to create instant revenue. Without a cash shop you would divert all resource to battle/systems content.

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Try to think about it this way, as a business owner, you want to pay your employees as little overtime as possible, and as a consumer you would not want the employees working overtime because that would impact your purchase price in some small way.

If your employees do work overtime as a business owner you would want that to not impact their day-to-day business and they are working overtime to "go the extra mile" and it would increase your profits in some way shape or form.

If you start to separate your employees to do only extra items, vanity and such. Well then you are creating a divide, and not focusing on what has been making you money and are now experimenting on a new venture. This is totally OK! But with any and all "New" ventures it comes with risk, and at this point in time, the risk has paid off. But if you push the limit...it may not.

The wedding premiums are the first of which I think are a risk in the wrong direction. I have my limit, and if it is reached, I will simply cast my vote (unsubscribe) and that will be the end of my character.

-Tari

This is just where games are today. You buy a game and can enjoy it on its own, but there's almost always something extra you need to shell out real cash for. DLC, extra outfits, seriously, you see it everywhere.

It's been an educational experience here for sure, because you can see people's varying definition of what "pay to win" means. Personally, I always equated it to "money can grant you a significant advantage over other players, and you can't reasonably progress in the game without buying something". Other people find the collection of vanity items to be "winning" in their own right. Then there are those who feel the struggle towards getting those items is the true victory, and just getting it by purchase isn't something that should be promoted (although this isn't really something you can pin on the cash shop, people use gil to buy all sorts of things that required others a lot of effort). You can't say anyone is wrong here, but it appears a lot of these personal definitions aren't very widespread across the game as a whole.

A lot of this comes down to exclusivity. Honestly, if the items on the cash shop were obtainable by everyone, hardly anyone would care about them. How many people do you see waltzing around with the Wind-Up Airship? If that same minion required clearing the Final Coil with a .1% chance of it dropping, it'd be the most sought after thing in the game. People want things that other people don't have, and the fact that there's a way for others to obtain stuff while they can't annoys them. You can make the case "well yeah, but the chance of obtaining it is there for everyone in game," but how many people are reasonably going to have a shot?

The minute things like levels and gear can be *directly* purchased from the cash shop, then yes, I think we have a problem. But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that's not going to happen.

If you cant afford $20/40, for a one time thing, to support the amazing development team and Square Enix, then go play any other MMO that doesn't have a cash shop. (Does it even exist?)

Stop eating at McDonald's three times a day and there is your $20. Don't go out drinking every weekend.

I mean if you are kid or basement dweller with no job, then maybe your Grandma will send you some money for Xmas. Seriously though, all the stuff on the cash shop is optional. Were we expecting Eternal Bond to be free? Ya I was, but I work, and 20/40 bucks is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Just imagine if you were a console/single player PC gamer. You would be spending 50-60 bucks on new games several times a year.

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Originally Posted by Felblood

If you cant afford $20/40, for a one time thing, to support the amazing development team and Square Enix, then go play any other MMO that doesn't have a cash shop. (Does it even exist?)

Stop eating at McDonald's three times a day and there is your $20. Don't go out drinking every weekend.

I mean if you are kid or basement dweller with no job, then maybe your Grandma will send you some money for Xmas. Seriously though, all the stuff on the cash shop is optional. Were we expecting Eternal Bond to free? Ya I was, but I work, and 20/40 bucks is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Just imagine if you were a console/single player PC gamer. You would be spending 50-60 bucks on new games several times a year.

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Case closed. Doctor says we're poor beggars.

I'm definitely not wealthy enough to play free to play games. That's true.

SE is gonna make a Cash shop only instanced dungeon
Grade 5 Materia
Raiding gear for no raiders
Housing in coerthas?
5th and 6th retainer for double fee

Pay to win, soon or later

Remember me, if that happens just quote what I said

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Originally Posted by Gumiho

SE is gonna make a Cash shop only instanced dungeon
Grade 5 Materia
Raiding gear for no raiders
Housing in coerthas?
5th and 6th retainer for double fee

Pay to win, soon or later

Remember me, if that happens just quote what I said

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I can see housing plots becoming the next "COMPLETELY OPTIONAL EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!!" thing.

Lets look at it this way.

$20 Eternal Bond + Sub $15 / 30 days = $1.16 per day
$40 Eternal Dond + Sub $15 /30 days = $1.83 per day

Like I said, quit buying that McDouble and Small Fries every day and you'll be golden.

The forum is full of seer or fortune-teller.

If the game dislikes you, unsub, close the door and never come back.

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Originally Posted by Felblood

Lets look at it this way.

$20 Eternal Bond + Sub $15 / 30 days = $1.16 per day
$40 Eternal Dond + Sub $15 /30 days = $1.83 per day

Like I said, quit buying that McDouble and Small Fries every day and you'll be golden.

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But if they included it with my sub I could still buy a sub, right?

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Originally Posted by rappa

The forum is full of seer or fortune-teller.

If the game dislikes you, unsub, close the door and never come back.

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I think the concern is that people will choose to do just that. They certainly did that with version 1.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I think the concern is that people will choose to do just that. They certainly did that with version 1.

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This.

I still remember people complaining about so much stuff in 1.0 and others just telling them to shut up and leave because everything was fine.
We left.
Remember what happened?

On the other hand, since some people seem to be just thrilled with every thing that's pushed into the cash shop I guess they'll have no problem if the game goes F2P someday.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

This.

I still remember people complaining...

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Honestly I like this game, but I'd rather see you all take action than talk. It's all everyone here ever does is talk, they get riled up then it trickles down to a few posters and 0 action taken. What is the delay? If you hate the direction why keep feeding it? I know many of you want change but look where we are now. Look at how close we are to the expansion, I feel like their ideas are being laid out pretty clear. Enough with the threats, enough with the long discussions that get few direct responses. Either watch the game crash, or use your wallet as your voice. I'd rather watch something I love fail then watch it slowly become this unrecognized beast.

I think it is sad that because some of you don't like the cash shop you are willing to stoop to idol threats about Un-subbing to try and get your way and make SE bow down to your needs and if they don't you will sit here and complain and complain and threaten.

Well I will call your bluff cause I know for a fact most of you are blowing steam if you are gonna do it, then do it stop talking and threatening the game will not die, everyday someone quits another will sub.

I am not hating on you all but I just don't see how cash shop is preventing you from playing the game.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Honestly I like this game, but I'd rather see you all take action than talk. It's all everyone here ever does is talk, they get riled up then it trickles down to a few posters and 0 action taken. What is the delay? If you hate the direction why keep feeding it? I know many of you want change but look where we are now. Look at how close we are to the expansion, I feel like their ideas are being laid out pretty clear. Enough with the threats, enough with the long discussions that get few direct responses. Either watch the game crash, or use your wallet as your voice.

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Well I, along with several others I know in game, have cancelled our sub. I still have 3 months left of mine, so that's 3 months of my delightful company you have left.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

I'd rather watch something I love fail then watch it slowly become this unrecognized beast.

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Well, I don't 100% agree with you here, but I get the sentiment. I truly hope it does well, but this game has changed too much from the one I used to love to continue paying it. If I'm being honest with myself, I stopped truly loving this game around Sep 2013, I stopped truly enjoying it around Dec 2013/Jan 2014, it's just taken this long to accept that it isn't coming back.

It being P2P only was a huge factor. I've given several cash shop games a chance and have always been burnt by them in the end. To see the game going down this path is heartbreaking.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Either watch the game crash, or use your wallet as your voice. I'd rather watch something I love fail then watch it slowly become this unrecognized beast.

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I am really doubtful that SE will see reducing subscription numbers and turn around on the decision to have a cash shop. More likely they'll see it as a justification for the cash shop; "We're losing players, better milk the remaining ones for more through the cash shop, good thing we added that.".

I'd much rather see more community outrage, perhaps similar to the old Absolute Virtue debacle XI had back in the day. Sadly outside these forums "SE is charging $15 for a mount that was in the game in beta" isn't really getting any coverage. SE sees no repercussions from this, just the profits. So what if a bunch of us quit over it, they'll just earn that and more through the cash shop if they choose.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

Canceled my sub today.

Tradable items in the cash shop is my personal line. Would not have thought they'd go there, but they did.

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You should have quit come 2.2, where they let you buy two extra Retainers and added a system that let you send Retainers out to obtain various items. Even ignoring things like the minions (which you can double your chance for with $), you can get a fair amount of Allagan Pieces per day from Ventures, which is just straight up Gil, which you can double by buying two more Retainers. Eight Ventures a day isn't a lot considering you can get 6 a day from Dailies alone, or a handful from Company Seals or even Treasure Maps.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Honestly I like this game, but I'd rather see you all take action than talk.

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Canceled my sub today.

Tradable items in the cash shop is my personal line. Would not have thought they'd go there, but they did.

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Originally Posted by Felblood

Lets look at it this way.

$20 Eternal Bond + Sub $15 / 30 days = $1.16 per day
$40 Eternal Dond + Sub $15 /30 days = $1.83 per day

Like I said, quit buying that McDouble and Small Fries every day and you'll be golden.

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Well on the flipside, you are paying around the cost of a full expansion (~$40+) which may include new areas, dungeons, jobs, gear, cutscenes, story, many new systems, etc for 2 dye-able outfits and a mount.