Is the Ninja nerf really needed?

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Originally Posted by Velox

Just remember that, no matter how long you've played NIN and how well you think you know the job...there is someone at SE who has played it 6+ months before you (before it was even announced) and knows it a LOT better. If SE says there is a performance disparity, there is. It may be minor, but it exists, and that's something we all have to accept.

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They pretty much admitted players are better players and better theorycrafters than them in the live letter.

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Just remember that, no matter how long you've played NIN and how well you think you know the job...there is someone at SE who has played it 6+ months before you (before it was even announced) and knows it a LOT better.

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*points at NIN from FFXI*
*points at how they initially didn't imagine it being used as a tank*

Just saying, because it IS the same job we're talking about here (even if it is two different games)

Funny how people imply that monk is so much harder to play than Ninja, I actually rolled Ninja because monk is too easy.
Well could be because I've played monk since release. Muscle memory? :/

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

They pretty much admitted players are better players and better theorycrafters than them in the live letter.

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Yes and no. If you look at 99% of the people on this planet, you will find someone in the 1% that could do the job better than they can. That doesn't mean they aren't qualified to do it though. Yes, there will exist some players that can unlock the potential of a specific job better than Developer A can, but that doesn't mean Developer A has no idea what he/she is doing. Just like how Person A might know more about medicine than Pharmacist B, but decided not to go into that field. It also doesn't mean Pharmacist B needs to bend over to what Person A says or that B isn't qualified to do the job.

How does this relate to the issue at hand? SE doesn't bow down to every player require and every player issue reported, but this time they are. Which means that the more-than-capable developers were able to recreate the DPS potential these players are seeing and verified it enough to declare that action must be taken to rectify the problem. And it makes sense though. Never in my life have I seen an MMO where a class is introduced without needing a single nerf or buff within the first year. Sometimes it's impossible. No matter how much testing you do in-house, every player becomes a tester upon release. With hundreds of thousands of testers all doing the same thing, the little mistakes filter down thru the cracks. It's not that every player is better than the developer. It's simply about numbers, and there's a lot more players than there are developers.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Stop acting like coil is the only content in this freaking game that matters... SE has the data they need, and they will adjust it accordingly.

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Considering that the DRG complaints mostly came up with Coil, and that the BLM buffs came into play because of Coil, SE may beg to differ.

It's a must, at least in Frontline.

- Auto-ability to permanently run faster than everyone, with no condition (unlike Bard).
- Melee class that can do good ranged attack, Throwing Daggers, Raiton.
- Melee class that can do magic attack, Raiton, an instant skill, as powerful as Fester and Flare, with very easy 3 steps combo (all instant abilities).
- Hide, almost impossible to defend unless you want to spam some AoE all the time.
- Can interrupt spell casting without any ability, just keep doing their super fast attacks and it's an auto-interruption.

lol at ppl crying because they want their no-brain class to stay stronk xc

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Originally Posted by Evangela

It's a must, at least in Frontline.

- Auto-ability to permanently run faster than everyone, with no condition (unlike Bard).
- Melee class that can do good ranged attack, Throwing Daggers, Raiton.
- Melee class that can do magic attack, Raiton, an instant skill, as powerful as Fester and Flare, with very easy 3 steps combo (all instant abilities).
- Hide, almost impossible to defend unless you want to spam some AoE all the time.
- Can interrupt spell casting without any ability, just keep doing their super fast attacks and it's an auto-interruption.

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Wait till you see NIN with pocket healer, NIN+Healer can pretty much duo 4+ players even if one of those are healer. Currently enjoying nin in pvp alot but also i totally understand if they get nerfed in there, atm its only class i know that can easily solo 2+ players even if those are tank or healer(well maybe not 2 healers unless they are derps).

Well to those bringing pvp into the reason behind the nerf are being quite silly. They can already adjust those abilities to have different pvp potency/traits. (So this nerf had nothing to do with pvp)

I think they may do a few things with ninja.

1. They never said they were increasing the TP costs. (Adjustments could be lowering the costs to compensate for lower dps)
2. If they increase the cost. They will likely bump Aeolian edge and dancing edge to 60.
3. The lowered potency. I likely to be on Raiton and Trick attack. I can see trick attack being drop down to about 300-350 and Raiton being adjusted to about 330.
4. Alternatively they could just adjust mutilate and shadow fang to be lower potency and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Wait till you see NIN with pocket healer, NIN+Healer can pretty much duo 4+ bad players

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FTFY

There's really no reason a solo nin should be able to kill any healer provided they had 1-2 CDs available, let alone win a 2 v 4.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

There's really no reason a solo nin should be able to kill any healer provided they had 1-2 CDs available, let alone win a 2 v 4.

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True but just like you corrected most are "not so good" in FL's when it comes to pvp including your teammates most of time, but still stunlock+silence combo can screw even more experienced healers specially when you open with TA.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

lol at ppl crying because they want their no-brain class to stay stronk xc

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People on forums tend to not do so well in the "reading" department. They see the word "nerf" and assume the worse, completely missing the whole "designed to be top DPS on purpose" part of the post. MMO gamers simply can't grasp at the fact that a job can get a nerf and still stay at the top.

The only thing this patch is going to do is take this

http://i62.tinypic.com/30m5v2e.png

And make it more like this

http://i61.tinypic.com/4qc7q.png

And look at that, NIN is still on top. Oh lawdy, y'all can take down dem road blocks now and put the torches out. Repent and thou shalt be saved!

Just for fun, if we were to believe all these doom-n-gloom posts about the fall of NIN, we would end up with something like this

http://i58.tinypic.com/2nkne6s.png

Ninja isn't top dps as it is, the hell are you talking about? If your ninja is parsing higher than your monk, you need a new monk.

Sorry, like often, I already did my own thread about this, didn't see this one. (Baka neko...)

But I agree, NIN nerf was not necessary. They are basing the nerf in the top ninjas that manage to do the max damage it can... It is like if you nerf MNK because that... I mean... How many MNKs and NINs manage to do that? 5%?

Average players won't notice such things but it is a low hit for that minority, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Stop acting like coil is the only content in this freaking game that matters... SE has the data they need, and they will adjust it accordingly.

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Nerfs and buffs are almost always based on highest tier progression content. Not low ilvl dungeons.

If the highest skilled players are playing both monk and ninja, monk still comes out on top and that is a fact.

Just my two cents but I always thought having to memorize and use ninjutsu properly was enough to balance ninjas high damage.

Happy to see Dragoons back on the track. Remember that classes supposed to be equal. You choose the class you like the most not because their dps output is greater. If nerf is needed to make Ninja equal to the others then yes nerf him. People see the word nerf and imagine that their class will be useless. That's not the case. We don't want a game with imbalanced and OP classes. We are supposed to choose what we like and not what dps the most.

This is a good thing i pull off 1100k and 1200 with my nin my dragoon i do sometimes 1000 or 1100 at times but nin a lot more dragoon is strength nin is Dexterity they need the nerf

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Just my two cents but I always thought having to memorize and use ninjutsu properly was enough to balance ninjas high damage.

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And you're right... Because of it some lazy ninjas use macros. But believe me, it takes A LOT to cast mudras using a macro, if you set 0.5 timers, and you can't set 0.4 or such, it failures... So those lazy nin end, like all lazy players after all, dealing less damage overall.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

There is a reason why the first final coil clears went double monk.

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they had no time for the ninja grind

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Nerfs and buffs are almost always based on highest tier progression content. Not low ilvl dungeons.

If the highest skilled players are playing both monk and ninja, monk still comes out on top and that is a fact.

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Except I highly doubt SE only looked at high level play this time around. Ninja offers utility with trick attack, and much less ramp up time than a monk needs, never mind if a Warrior is using their slashing debuff rather than the Ninja itself... Gotta consider every factor, and that includes PvP, low level PvE and high level PvE.

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Originally Posted by Truth_Chikara

Ninja isn't top dps as it is, the hell are you talking about? If your ninja is parsing higher than your monk, you need a new monk.

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Seriously that has been explained several times now, try making an effort and read the thread.

Outside T8 or your local rooted dummy MNK cannot reach their max potential, they can't even get close to it, but NIN can get near their max potential with close to no effort and that is a problem.

This is about regulating the amount of damage an equally skilled NIN, MNK and DRG can do, they will lower Ninja's upper limit just enough so someone with a similar skill as a Monk or a post-buff Dragoon can deal similar damage, only dealing more damage if they can reach their max potential.

The gap between a class main potential and the potential the average player can reach is determined by how hard it is to master the class, how hard it is to keep all your buffs, damage boosts and debuffs up.

Reposting here:

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Originally Posted by Velox

People on forums tend to not do so well in the "reading" department. They see the word "nerf" and assume the worse, completely missing the whole "designed to be top DPS on purpose" part of the post. MMO gamers simply can't grasp at the fact that a job can get a nerf and still stay at the top.

The only thing this patch is going to do is take this

http://i62.tinypic.com/30m5v2e.png

And make it more like this

http://i61.tinypic.com/4qc7q.png

And look at that, NIN is still on top. Oh lawdy, y'all can take down dem road blocks now and put the torches out. Repent and thou shalt be saved!

Just for fun, if we were to believe all these doom-n-gloom posts about the fall of NIN, we would end up with something like this

http://i58.tinypic.com/2nkne6s.png

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Originally Posted by Atreides

There is a reason why the first final coil clears went double monk.

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Because the group is too busy with their goal of beating Final Coil first that they don't have time to powerlevel Ninja and get iLv100-110 gears for their Ninja in a matter of two weeks?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

My NIN was beating it at a much lower level. *shrug*

Again, MNK's only comparable under ideal circumstances, which rarely exist in this game. NIN is pretty much not reliant on "circumstances"

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If a MNK was being beaten by a NIN it was a bad MNK, or the MNK had more mechanics to deal with. End of story.

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Originally Posted by Velox

The only thing this patch is going to do is take this

http://i62.tinypic.com/30m5v2e.png

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So much work put into something that just wasn't correct.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Just my two cents but I always thought having to memorize and use ninjutsu properly was enough to balance ninjas high damage.

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Are you trying to say that's hard or something? Confused...

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Originally Posted by Iveriad

Because the group is too busy with their goal of beating Final Coil first that they don't have time to powerlevel Ninja and get iLv100-110 gears for their Ninja in a matter of two weeks?

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No because Monk still does the highest ST damage and Dragon kick is almost crucial in t13 unless you overgear it.

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If a MNK was being beaten by a NIN it was a bad MNK, or the MNK had more mechanics to deal with. End of story.

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No kidding. Guess what is often the case in FFXIV, and guess what also doesn't affect NIN nearly as much?

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Originally Posted by Velox

Just remember that, no matter how long you've played NIN and how well you think you know the job...there is someone at SE who has played it 6+ months before you (before it was even announced) and knows it a LOT better. If SE says there is a performance disparity, there is. It may be minor, but it exists, and that's something we all have to accept.

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Not to mention their metrics will be accurate compared to 3rd party parsers which are not.
loose en français il est lâche ou mal fixé
lose en français il est perdre

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

No kidding. Guess what is often the case in FFXIV, and guess what also doesn't affect NIN nearly as much?

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Never had any problems dealing with mechanics as monk and still coming out on top, cept for T9 where SMN beat me.
Dealing with GL is actually never a problem for any decent monk, granted you drop GL sometimes but only when you are really forced to do so and there is maybe 1-2 situations where you can't just Perfect balance it.

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Originally Posted by Truth_Chikara

Ninja isn't top dps as it is, the hell are you talking about? If your ninja is parsing higher than your monk, you need a new monk.

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Yes
he should change the "DPS potential" in the pictures into "average player DPS potential"

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Never had any problems dealing with mechanics as monk and still coming out on top, cept for T9 where SMN beat me.
Dealing with GL is actually never a problem for any decent monk, granted you drop GL sometimes but only when you are really forced to do so and there is maybe 1-2 situations where you can't just Perfect balance it.

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Well, I have encountered the issue way more than you have, and Perfect Balance is not up nearly often enough as needed to counter it.

I don't encounter it at all on NIN, which is likely a big part of why I do way better on it. Like I said, for MNK where a brief intercession in the fight would result in lost GL stacks, for a NIN it's just an opportunity to recast theirs.

correlating effort/skill ceiling with maximum damage potential is bad game design imo, especially when said ceilings aren't very difficult to reach or heavily execution intensive

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Originally Posted by Mogi

This is a good thing i pull off 1100k and 1200 with my nin my dragoon i do sometimes 1000 or 1100 at times but nin a lot more dragoon is strength nin is Dexterity they need the nerf

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It all makes sense to me now!

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Originally Posted by Elazu

It all makes sense to me now!

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...ladies and gentlemen, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Well, I have encountered the issue way more than you have, and Perfect Balance is not up nearly often enough as needed to counter it.

I don't encounter it at all on NIN, which is likely a big part of why I do way better on it. Like I said, for MNK where a brief intercession in the fight would result in lost GL stacks, for a NIN it's just an opportunity to recast theirs.

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So you're admitting that you don't know as much about MNK as you implied earlier then.

I want them to nerf its aggro generation, I don't care if DPS is nerfed.

Yeah it sucks that dragoon is the only melee dps class that has threat reduction skill. I don't know how many times as monk I've pulled off mediocre tanks in CT and duty roulette which made my dps plummet. Range dps don't have to worry about this since they can quell in the beginning with no dps loss.

That chart was all shades wrong. No Dragoon would ever be top DPS because the vast majority of them of them would be on the ground... dead.

Initially, the developers think within their own little box, which is why developers will get surprised when players use classes in a manner that they did not expect. It happens (had happened & will continue to happen) in MMOs plenty of times. So, when that happens, they go back and recreate it, even creating ideal scenarios for that happens, and they base their findings off of that.

Then classes get tweaked, players adapt to the changes or move on to the next Face Roll Class.

The part about this update that has me surprised the most is how many people honestly did not see this ninja nerf coming, I mean, wow. I knew this job was getting nerfed after I saw the patch notes before we could even log in :x

More important than the Ninja nerf though, stoneskin 2!!!! wohoooooooooooo

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

The part about this update that has me surprised the most is how many people honestly did not see this ninja nerf coming, I mean, wow. I knew this job was getting nerfed after I saw the patch notes before we could even log in :x

More important than the Ninja nerf though, stoneskin 2!!!! wohoooooooooooo

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Like me and many other people said already Ninja isn't even top dps in the current version the top dps still goes to monk. People will go back to stacking 2 monks for their melee slots if ninja is nerfed so much.