Thanks for making Second Coil more accessible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PotatoTree

They'll have no trouble with it when they get gear from T6-8, plus poetic gear.

Honestly if I joined some random mmorpg, I wouldn't care at all what the pro people do or think. All I would care about is my gear, my runs, and my experience. There should always be something for the elitists (savage, FCoB) but outside of that it should be fair game to the casuals.

---

kinda funny how sol gear did almost nothing to help people get past T5.

The only regrets I have about echo and nerfs are my personal regrets that my static wasn't able to clear T9 despite our efforts before echo. Has nothing to do with SE or them changing the game, it feels like a defeat though, kinda sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ehayte

The only regrets I have about echo and nerfs are my personal regrets that my static wasn't able to clear T9 despite our efforts before echo. Has nothing to do with SE or them changing the game, it feels like a defeat though, kinda sad.

---

click echo off. Tadaa!! nothing changed from prior to 2.41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

click echo off. Tadaa!! nothing changed from prior to 2.41

---

Except..you know...the mechanic changes. T9 you can click echo off, but there's been some slight changes. (It won't matter much though if you were already hitting a wall, it could also just be SE toning down damage a slight bit, but if you couldn't get past T9 before, you magically won't now.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

click echo off. Tadaa!! nothing changed from prior to 2.41

---

Did you read the patch notes? o_o

Edit: Oh, my mistake. T9. Haven't been in yet but if there's been no changes then this is true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Except..you know...the mechanic changes. T9 you can click echo off, but there's been some slight changes. (It won't matter much though if you were already hitting a wall, it could also just be SE toning down damage a slight bit, but if you couldn't get past T9 before, you magically won't now.)

---

you could read the patch notes before saying something wrong. T9.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...54908abc185342

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Funny, the word that comes to my mind for people who want Coil to remain as is (even though Savage mode is untouched) is "entitled", too.

---

The thing is, there is a difference. It is entitlement to expect the same rewards for less effort. Those not wanting it to be nerfed expect you to work just as hard for the things they did(gear or clear). That's not entitlement, its fairness.

To those that say we all pay the same amount for the game we should all have the same access, you do. If your knowledge, perseverance, and execution are up to par. Its like saying everyone pays the same for college, we should all get degrees regardless. But I garauntee that not everyone will get that degree. Why, because they don't have the knowledge, the preseverence, or are unable to execute. Would you want a college dropout in the same job pool as you as a engineer? or a doctor?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

you could read the patch notes before saying something wrong. T9.

---

Just did T9 and some damage felt like it was a bit less hence "slight bit", you do realize SE won't always write out everything in patch notes, right? They didn't state exactly how much in T6-7 the damage was reduced when before BB was instant kill. I already read them, thanks though.

So if nothing changed, then I guess everyone magically got better without echo buff being on :p

Tupsi, are you factoring in you have Poetic gear now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Tupsi, are you factoring in you have Poetic gear now?

---

Yep. Comparing it from yesterday (same gear) to what I did today. I always like testing when the echo changes come in to see if SE ninjas in things and to me it just felt like some abilities did a lil less than they used to. That's why I said regardless if there were any changes, if you couldn't deal with mechanics before you won't now no matter what they do (or don't do) to the turns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XoanGrahm

snip

---

Difference being, this is a video game, not a diploma. Half the responses on this topic make me wonder how some people don't blow a fuse when a game has a difficulty setting; "I PLAYS SKYRIM ON LEGENDARY DIFFICULTY! EVERYONE SHOULD! QQ".

Granted, t6-8 are an outright nerf, rather than optional scale (which Echo is), but they're also fluff content. The only turns which actually matter, as far as I'm concerned, at t9/12/13. Every other "boss" is just forgettable with time.

If you want to compare this to anything in real life, compare it to eating; my distant ancestors had to hunt down their food and cook it next to a fire. I just buy it from a retailer and stick it in an oven for a few minutes. That isn't unfair, it's called progress.

I don't even know why this matters in regards to Second Coil... Hunts and Scyrus Tower pretty much let players get i110 easier than you did with Second Coil. Poetics let players get i120 easier. All this change does, at best, is let people farm vanity gear easier and progress the story. Why does it matter that players can get High Allagan easier now, when everyone is running around in i120 currently?

It isn't really honest to say they're putting less effort in for the same rewards as you did. They're not. You put effort in for the highest tier gear in the game. They're putting "less" effort in for i110 when i130 is a thing. The rewards they're getting are weaker by virtue of the game having higher tier gear now. The rewards you got were identical, but at the time it was the highest tier and thus "worth" more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

snip

---

Actually I have only been playing for 2 months, I havent yet cleared T5. But this issue is one prevalent in a lot of MMO's. I will clear it, I'm setting up a static to do just that. The difference is, I will never have the experience that the earlier raiders had. I will never have to get better at the game, and learn the mechanics, for those fights so any drops I do get are cheapened.

As far as the metaphor in my previous post, perhaps the example is not the best, but tell me how it isnt accurate? Video game or no, people who put in effort will be rewarded, people unwilling or incapible of doing so, should not be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XoanGrahm

Video game or no, people who put in effort will be rewarded, people unwilling or incapible of doing so, should not be.

---

People who are unwilling or incapable of putting effort in still aren't going to be clearing Second Coil; they still have trouble with Titan (Hard). These nerfs aren't an auto-win like some people are making them out to be, I really doubt you can go in blind to t7 and not have to learn the mechanics because of these changes. Perhaps you can learn them faster, but you certainly will have to become aware of them regardless.

Not being able to experience the original version is a shame, but that's part and parcel of progression in an MMO. Will you complain when Heavensward comes around and the majority of older content becomes easier as we're Lv60 with new skills? I hope not, because that's just how MMOs are. All you can really do is not let it happen again.

And no, the drops are not cheapened by the content being easier. They're cheapened by the fact that they're not the highest tier anymore; if you buy Ironworks Armor of Fending, then go do Second Coil and obtain a Heavy High Allagan Coat, is simply is never going to feel as rewarding as it was for the first people to go through Second Coil, even if SE never touched Second Coil outside an Echo buff. The drops are cheapened because they're simply not as good anymore, they're vanity rather than potential BiS. The only thing these changes have done is cheapen the accomplishment of clearing the content, the drops are completely irrelevant. If you want a feeling of accomplishment for clearing challenging content, Savage mode is still completely untouched.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

There's a reason the community is pretty toxic when it comes to progression content and when it gets "accessible".

---

There are too many variables out there from both sides of the fence Tupsi and you know them so I will refrain from repeatedly listing them. I think SE handles dated content well for something they have stated since Day One. Some folks seriously just need to let go from both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XoanGrahm

I will never have to get better at the game, and learn the mechanics, for those fights so any drops I do get are cheapened.

---

T5 and T9 (the gate checks to next tier) are untouched. I can guarantee that you'll fail horribly if you go easy on them. Even though T5 doesn't require much time (in fact, if you go blind, 2 or 3 days. If you go the lazy way with a guide, 2 hours the time to put everything together)

As a player who just recently started playing a few months ago and greatly enjoyed the difficulty of some of the content, i'm disappointed.

Not everyone who hates the nerfs have passed Second Coil. Myself and a few friends are still working our way through that content having already beaten T6 though and trying to farm it. While it is frustrating being behind some of my other friends who are in FCoB and wiping multiple times in some of these "farm parties", i'd much rather deal with those issues than have lazy players pushed through content in the form of nerfs.

I just hope this means I can get rid of my bonus tomestone message. Miss a few months and people treat you like a second class citizen with a disease. You don't even get the opertunity to prove that you can execute you job perfectly in these fights as people see that message and throw a conniption

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

I just hope this means I can get rid of my bonus tomestone message. Miss a few months and people treat you like a second class citizen with a disease. You don't even get the opertunity to prove that you can execute you job perfectly in these fights as people see that message and throw a conniption

---

its not simply being able to execute your job perfectly. it also involves being able to handle things the game throws at you(voice shriek,towers). two of those things have been eased tho.

I´m not on favor for this modification, the second coil have the correct difficulty, not see why have to down the level.
I have 3 months playing and have T8 clear, its just know mechanics and play on team.
I know people what no clear T5 and its nerf, so this no make things more easy if you dont know how play.

I find it funny that instead of simply making a story/easy mode with these mechanic nerfs that SE decides to nerf the standard content. At the end of the day, if all you want is the cutscenes and to unlock FCOB then these nerfs are perfect but people need to understand there are 2 sides to the coin and some people actually enjoy difficult content.

The only way they could have totally avoided the whining would have been by adding another version of coil with these nerfs that allows you to progress on an easier path while keeping the standard version for those who like it. Nobody on either side of the coin is right or wrong, it's all just an opinion about whether they like difficult content or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinKaen

Why do people wait for content to get nerfed to play a game? Why not unsub and wait till the game is almost dead and then play?

---

It is not that i waited, i barely got into the game this past August, and still haven't cleared T5. I still probably wouldn't see these "nerfed" turns for a while until i find a group that is dedicated enough to clear T5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

"Waghhhh old near dead content I spent my entire laif ( literally since I was born yo ) to complete, will now be completed by more ppl. My laif is over. I can no longer sell runs for millions and rmt it all off. My laif over. I hate all casual players."


I love hardcore players <333 mak mi laf so mush

---

really lame post, to be fair.

i dont see what peoples problem is, Final Coil is out, if you want challenge go do that or Savage 2. Coil. Its natural to nerf olde content and make it more accessable.

If only they'd do the same for proper spelling and grammar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coldbrand

If only they'd do the same for proper spelling and grammar.

---

:o, I am soooo sorry that my English isnt free of mistakes. Too bad its not my native language. But hey its totally ok if Americans make mistakes when they try to write in any other Language then English right?!

But hey, i am that generous you can keep all errors and mistakes you find for free ok? *wuvyou*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

i dont see what peoples problem is, Final Coil is out, if you want challenge go do that or Savage 2. Coil. Its natural to nerf olde content and make it more accessable.

---

Again, not everyone has made it to Savage 2 or FCoB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

I really can't see this complaining as anymore more than a tantrum. The similarities between this and a toddler acting up as their younger sibling gets their old toys are just too great.

---

Even more sad is the fact that the average gamer age is 30, more or less. This is the way SE and Yoshi has declared that the game will be. I don't see any problem with old content being nerfed for the good of the player base and the longevity of the game. As with real life, job, etc. deal with the decisions or quit/move on. Even some of the acronyms are childish and laughable, bads, baddies, filthy casual, filthy hard core, the list goes on.

Most of us hate the changes made only because they make the mistakes irrelevant. Didn't refreeze the Renaud? Who cares. Didn't watch being devoured by Raffy? Who cares. It's the same as the person said in another thread.
This nerf would be like saying that Titan's landslides wouldn't even knock you off the arena. That's a sad change. Even in T1 if you didn't kill a slime and the person moved away, whoever was close to it got one shot. That's more damaging than any of the mechanics now in T6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

i dont see what peoples problem is, Final Coil is out, if you want challenge go do that or Savage 2. Coil. Its natural to nerf olde content and make it more accessable.

---

I see this line so much... "You want SCoB to be a challenge still? Go do Savage."
It is harder but in case and point where Raffy in T6 forces you to do the briar method because it devours twice in a row, Savage is not the same as SCoB. if I wanted to do T6 where a mistake actually cost something and made me waste the time of 7 other people, I should have that choice. You can't tell me if I want a challenge go to Savage. They are DIFFERENT. It's not just HP boosting, damage increasing. The mechanics are different depending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinKaen

Why do people wait for content to get nerfed to play a game? Why not unsub and wait till the game is almost dead and then play?

---

I could also ask why waste hours of your life doing 1 aspect of ingame content that's only going to be obsolete and nerfed in the future. Theirs more then just raiding in the game to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shinun

I could also ask why waste hours of your life doing 1 aspect of ingame content that's only going to be obsolete and nerfed in the future. Theirs more then just raiding in the game to do.

---

So if there is so much more to do, then wtf do you care about Coil?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Most of us hate the changes made only because they make the mistakes irrelevant.

---

When 'most of us' merely accounts for a microscopic portion of the customer base SE did the right thing. If this game only did what the hardcore or elitists wanted it would go out of business or fail just like Wildstar has done. You still have your hardcore content and new content is made for you on a constant basis, currently that is second coil savage and final coil, fact is you do not get to have everything you want and SE has to look at the big picture trying to please the other 90+% of players who wanted such changes on VERY OLD raid content.

You do not lose out in the grand scheme of things unless SE did not compensate you with new harder raid content to sink your teeth into but fact is they do give you more while also giving those who are not in the tiny minority a helping hand too. The way it works now and they way they have done this is how they have always done it and will continue to do so, if you expected something different then maybe the problem is not with SE on this regard but your expectations.

If you cannot bare the fact they do this on old content maybe long term you would be happier elsewhere and not every single person is required to love every single change they make to the game but they have the right idea in creating new challenging content for those who want that while at same time easing up and giving helping hand to those left behind on very old content like this. That helping hand will extend as far as needs to go in order to do so in regards to catching up vastly more people to the start of the harder new content despite a small amount of people who do not want them helping new players on old content as much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

hunt toxicity.

---

Things must be very different server by server.

I see no learning parties for SCoB up in PF atm, although I can't comment on whether there have been any on my server since 2.4 at all as I have been busy with other things and haven't looked.

On the other hand, my server had an organized teamspeak channel for hunts that everyone was welcome to join. They also tried to accommodate people who didn't have TS (which required shouting around a little bit to get noticed). All that is dead now, of course, since the incentive to do hunts is gone as they don't provide useful tomes and are a harder alternative to sands/oils now. So our hunt scene was never toxic on Excalibur.

I love these nerfs soooooo much. QuQ

Now I can actually go in and farm the last few glamour pieces i need without asking my static to waste raid time getting me outclassed gear. I understand, to some degree, that some people might feel robbed of the experience of beating these fights as they were initially written, but after months of raiding SCoB with crappy loot rng, i just don't care. I've done my time in these fights and am ready to move on.

I do find it silly that anyone is complaining about/blaming casual players for these nerfs though. As the patches progressed, we've seen the patterns. The pattern of nerfing old content as new content is introduced is nothing new and was almost certainly planned before ARR was even released. And this talk of entitlement. Hilarious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magis

So if there is so much more to do, then wtf do you care about Coil?

---

I don't it's a vertical progression game. If your upset about nerfs to old content then your going to be mad every few patches. I use my time more for account achievements because those grinds will not be lessen. The same amount of work I have to put towards 1000 frontlines will still be the same amount needed a year from now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

When 'most of us' merely accounts for a microscopic portion of the customer base SE did the right thing. If this game only did what the hardcore or elitists wanted it would go out of business or fail just like Wildstar has done.

---

You don't have to be hardcore or elitist to want a bit of challenge, I really don't think casuals are SO casual that they just want the game to turn into a movie where they might as well not have any interaction with it at all. If I do something wrong, I want to feel as though I shouldn't do that - not that my mistakes are either a minor inconvenience or completely irrelevant. Blighted was a fantastic mechanic because you couldn't get anyone else killed, only yourself - and it was one of the most simple mechanics to deal with. But, if you messed up, you died and that taught you not to do that. Now you just completely ignore the mechanic all together and zerg the boss until he starts firing lasers. Just really doesn't feel like a mentality that players should be taught in a raid, especially one that eventually progresses to T9 and the FCoB. The sudden leap in difficulty from 8 to 9, and 9 (w/ Echo) to 10 is going to be really, really weird for newer players - similar to all the ones that want T5 nerfed because it's too hard. T1-4 nerfed taught them nothing, so now they're not prepared for T5. It just seems really, really weird.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alyko

"do this ridiculously convoluted action or you die" mechanics

---

..............................

..........................................................................................

...................................................................................................................

ok now that I can speak after that wtflux.

Yes because "don't face your party with this debuff" or "stop when the boss casts X" are horribly convoluted.

6-8 are BEYOND simple. The raid content in XIV is insultingly simple on day 1 that is why they didn't nerf it into the floor so you could just ignore all mechanics and still win sooner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

When 'most of us' merely accounts for a microscopic portion of the customer base SE did the right thing. If this game only did what the hardcore or elitists wanted it would go out of business or fail just like Wildstar has done.

---

Yep because all the games that died because they didn't cave into the people who can't handle simple simon says mechanics.... EQ, EQ2, XI........... oh wait they still produce regular content require subscriptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

When 'most of us' merely accounts for a microscopic portion of the customer base SE did the right thing.

---

Look at the prominent threads being made over this topic. You'll see what I mean when I say "most of us". It's meant to say "most of us" on the forums that have vocally displayed our opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

If this game only did what the hardcore or elitists wanted it would go out of business or fail just like Wildstar has done. You still have your hardcore content and new content is made for you on a constant basis, currently that is second coil savage and final coil, fact is you do not get to have everything you want...

---

I'm not hardcore. At all. I'm serious about wanting to play well. There's a difference.
I am not in a static. I never was in one that lasted beyond one run. By the time SCoB became more open via PF, I had only cleared T6 a hand full of times and T7 was on learning. I started earlier this year and was late to a lot of the parties. None of this stopped me from progressing. I made an effort.
Second coil savage is not the same as regular SCoB. To say it is is naive.
FCoB is also static territory right now.
It should be stated instead that the "casuals" (i.e people who are actually lazy and get to hide behind the term) who don't want to actually learn the fights shouldn't get everything they want. Even casuals like myself that want nothing to do with statics because I want the freedom to do what I wanna do want to learn fights and be proud for downing something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

...while also giving those who are not in the tiny minority a helping hand too.

---

But they aren't giving them a helping hand. They are leading people to the troughs. Echo buff/more accessibility to higher ilevel of gear, and getting rid of SOME of the insta-kills would have be enough to properly prepare them for the next turn. As it stands right now, T6-T7 can't help anyone and T9 will have threads like T5 where people bitch and moan about it being so damn hard in comparison to anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

If you cannot bare the fact they do this on old content maybe long term you would be happier elsewhere

---

Considering that even the EX primals don't get nerfed down to such extremes after they are old content makes this statement silly. People still dread Titan EX.
Also, Ramuh EX proved that the echo buff was all that was needed to give more people the ability to clear that fight. He didn't need 80-90% of his mechanics changed.

Meh some of you take it too seriously. While i don't exactly agree with it, we should have all known it was going to happen
Also High Allagan gear is not that great anymore anyhow.....
Wether it will be a better experience if you use df to do these now is to be seen however

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarzak

Yep because all the games that died because they didn't cave into the people who can't handle simple simon says mechanics.... EQ, EQ2, XI........... oh wait they still produce regular content require subscriptions.

---

we could argue about Simon says being simple but who cares...

Just so you know, the MMOs you quoted are from an other era, with different needs and expectations from different players, and which now survive on the persistent player base they gathered other the years. You can't possibly compare them to the modern MMO market. Not if you want to be taken for serious.

The debate here just like in another thread reminds me of politics. Each side believes they are right and no amount of discussion is going to sway the other. Doesn't really matter what SE does someone is going to be upset.