2.4 SMN Class Issues

+1 for OP, great write-up. (Dat derailed thread though...)

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Just tried going through T10-12 this reset with SMN and while it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, it certainly doesn't compare to BLM. For preference, here are the numbers from last week's BLM runs and this week's SMNs.

BLM: 485 T10, 450 T11, 520 T12(Till about 25 percent or so)

SMN: 450 T10, 428 T11, 470 T12

It's funny because at first glance, I thought I would be doing more as SMN on T11 but that didn't turn out to be the case. And that's also with our Bard running Ballad once atleast.

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I noticed this first when I was playing on SMN (well experienced) and I finally got to run with another well experienced BLM. The upkeep on the BLM was amazing throughout the entire fight, staying on par with me and surpassing me on pretty much each turn.

BLM is outclassing SMN in all of these fights and they don't need assistance from any other class. SMN needs at least a Ballad here and there to stay competitive.

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

SMN is fine. Just because DRGs are getting their much needed and over due buff doesn't mean every other job should follow suit. YOU"RE FINE.

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Using DRG as an excuse to say other job should get adjustments (or needs them, no matter how slight) is a terrible argument.

The Summmoner should never be as good as BLM purely because of Raise. I do wonder how people get 485 DPS on T10, 450 on T11? That is again very hard to believe. On T10 I limit break and parse around 410-420. No battlevoiced Requiem. On T11 I killed it for the first time yesterday and ended with 380. This was because it was my first kill and second I had a great portion of the game where I couldn't even hit the boss when having the spread for missiles. It will probably be around 400 next time around. I see Kairi is the one making this claim. I have played with you and by no means were you doing vasts amounts of damage more. Sometimes I was even in front of you at the end. You do have quite a bit of pentamelded gear, but to do 60+ DPS more when I have noticed only a minor difference between the two of us with you being slightly better, I find it hard to believe. I also did not know that you were an experienced summoner. I've never seen you on it

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

Using DRG as an excuse to say other job should get adjustments (or needs them, no matter how slight) is a terrible argument.

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Um what, i'm saying SMN doesn't need a buff.
Phail.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

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You can ask any of my static members if you want proof. Also, I don't remember you ever doing more in the two or three runs we have played with each other ? Not mentioning names, I was still doing more DPS than people with I130 weapon. But let's not derail this topic with more bragging, shall we ? :)

Also believe it or not, Summoner was actually my main in Second Coil.

There's also a few reasons why you wouldn't be pulling these numbers. On T10, Are you saving up your buffs for the adds and triple flaring them with Raging Strikes and Ethers ? Are you placing thunder 1 on all four adds ? Are you using swiftcast everytime you get a wild charge ? There's a lot of reasons why you wouldn't be doing better numbers but I don't feel like going into detail since this topic isn't really about that and stuff like that should come naturally anyway depending on player skill.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a fantastic player but to me it always seemed like you had the edge over me, but by a small margin. So to see you doing 70 DPS more is huge. But you are right, let's not derail and hope the SMN issues get addressed because they need to be. I'll try and record our kills next week and ask you for feedback. Always willing to learn ^^

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Um what, i'm saying SMN doesn't need a buff.
Phail.

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I don't recall anyone asking for direct buffs (outside of the OP), but rather much needed QOL asjustments.

To an extent, the QOL changes would buff summoner damage in itself.

lower the manacost from dots by 1/3 would maybe work out pretty good but lower the costs by a high amount and/or giving a dmg buff aswell would end up in smn being op as shit.

QoL changes I'd personally be happy with:

1. Change the amount mana restored from Aetherflow to 30%.
2. Slightly decrease the amount of mana our dots cost.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I think it would be nice if the spell speed from pet trait is switched to a mp refresh instead[.]

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I quite liked this idea, although I still got my hopes up for a future job with an actually targeted Refresh (such as RDM in XI), not unlike a NIN's Goad.

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Um what, i'm saying SMN doesn't need a buff.
Phail.

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Then most likely you have no idea how the class works, or you are just trolling.
SMN's have Mana isseus, hard to believe a DRG would claim otherwise..

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Originally Posted by SinSaberius

Then most likely you have no idea how the class works, or you are just trolling.
SMN's have Mana isseus, hard to believe a DRG would claim otherwise..

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yes they have mana issues when it comes to multidotting or raising a partymember.
just keep in mind that the 3 dots are 1/3 of a smn's dmg so if u can multidot as long as u want without running out of mp, smn would be the strongest class of there are 2-3 targets.

i just want to point out, that too much regen would make smn a lot stronger than blm .smn gives utility with that rais just like a bard with songs and they shouldnt be on top in dmg like others.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Just tried going through T10-12 this reset with SMN and while it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, it certainly doesn't compare to BLM. For preference, here are the numbers from last week's BLM runs and this week's SMNs.

BLM: 485 T10, 450 T11, 520 T12(Till about 25 percent or so)

SMN: 450 T10, 428 T11, 470 T12

It's funny because at first glance, I thought I would be doing more as SMN on T11 but that didn't turn out to be the case. And that's also with our Bard running Ballad once atleast.

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That is strange that SMN was behind at all for T10-11 - Both those fights are amazing for multidotting.

Compared to BLM T11 is especially good because you can contagion 1 module and rotate your dots on the others and still do some single target damage. (600+ DPS for 1/3 of the fight) On the ADS phase you can sustain MP with just 2 X Energy Drains per minute (2400 MP/min -> 1200 Passive, 600 Aetherflow - 532 Energy Drain).

That's only a 15 DPS loss during that phase (2.5%) to maintain over 600 DPS. Averaged out 500 DPS is possible because 1/3 of the fight consists of DPSing the ADS modules.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Whatever helps you get through the day. LoL

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Wow. Really? A internet forum post will help me get through the day? I guess you feel the need to respond and you won't stop unless you feel like you "owned" me or made me look bad so ill let it go here and stop responding to you.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

It's because she not only suggesting a complete overhaul on a class which is always going to lose you fans, but has made over 500+ post on this subject with just reposting the same thing. She'll have one idea then necro post every SMN thread to tell the us. That's what really annoying everyone. But hey, don't take our word for it. Read the 625+ she has.

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I know akiza has a a lot of bad posts, i never said otherwise. However its your inability and others inability to stop yourselves from bullying others due to your annoyance.This childish mentality has to stop.You think that since you are right in your minds that it gives you the right to act completely disrespectful.

Doesn't matter if you think it's feasible,or you don't want an overhaul,or you just don't like the idea,or you think it's a gamble ... there are better ways to say it than people have on this forum. I feel bad for derailing this thread but akiza didn't even post on this thread yet people were attacking him. It's honestly appalling regardless of what you think of akiza.

If i post again on this thread it will be on topic, sorry for derailing.

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Originally Posted by athenia

i just want to point out, that too much regen would make smn a lot stronger than blm .smn gives utility with that rais just like a bard with songs and they shouldnt be on top in dmg like others.

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I totally agree, giving it too much regen would indeed be OP, but to run out of mana on long term fights makes it hard to keep up numbers (solo Target), i mean yes they shouldnt be the highest, but i still and will believe they should be far from the lowest. Even without Ruin 2 spam the mp drain is vastly.
The SMN has indeed certain skills that give aid and utilty if you must say, and that should indeed drain more Mana, but even as it stands at the moment without using any of those, the mp drain is massive.
to finalize, i will never understand why they gave SMN so much Spellspeed, most caster gear is favoured for the BLM.
I think spellspeed should have any worth if it would make the dots tick faster like Dino said. But we will see suppose. :)

Was thinking about this recently, and I actually have a question re: MP issues. I'm no Summoner and I've no idea how much Piety you'd need to make it matter, but if you melded head + hands + belt with Piety IVs/Piety IIIs, would that make any difference in Turn 10-13? You'd be missing out on Crit on the head and Accuracy on the belt/hands, but I was curious how much MP you'd need to offset the issues SMN has in FCoB. Is it too significant to mend through just materia?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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The sphere takes half the damage from magical attacks though ? So the difference during that part won't be as big as you think especially since I am on the cube the whole phase and only switch to the sphere towards the end if the other DPS are slacking.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

The sphere takes half the damage from magical attacks though ? So the difference during that part won't be as big as you think especially since I am on the cube the whole phase and only switch to the sphere towards the end if the other DPS are slacking.

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You can however stand near the Electric Node, DoT and Contagion that one and maintain your DoTs on the cube. Gives you 2 sets of full strength DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You can however stand near the Electric Node, DoT and Contagion that one and maintain your DoTs on the cube. Gives you 2 sets of full strength DoTs.

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The problem with that is SMN has a hard enough time keeping up with 2 melee + BRD + tank with DoTs + full time Ruins on one target. Multi-DoTing won't help if you have to make your party do half damage for a few GCDs. As SMN I played it straight and I lagged pretty far behind the others, and required them to throttle and/or help me on my add. With BLM, you have complete control and can not only keep up easier with the other DPS but you can finish it off from sub-10% in two GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You can however stand near the Electric Node, DoT and Contagion that one and maintain your DoTs on the cube. Gives you 2 sets of full strength DoTs.

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That is true but electric node have regen that tick 200~ heals and ur full set of dots tick 370 - 420. Almost same in source of damage than dotting sphere.

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Originally Posted by SinSaberius

I totally agree, giving it too much regen would indeed be OP, but to run out of mana on long term fights makes it hard to keep up numbers (solo Target), i mean yes they shouldnt be the highest, but i still and will believe they should be far from the lowest. Even without Ruin 2 spam the mp drain is vastly.

I think spellspeed should have any worth if it would make the dots tick faster like Dino said. But we will see suppose. :)

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far from lowest cause of what ? theres no reason why a smn should do more dmg than drg, nin, monk or blm. ur at the same lvl as a bard, i would say even higher if played well and i really see no reason why u should outdmg the other classes.

that thin with spellspeed is a a good idea, but there are several more things they need to change if the want to do a mechanic like that.

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Originally Posted by athenia

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A summoner in theory should excel at something over a BLM though otherwise there becomes no reason to play the class. If you were to then say combat raise, tell me how is this useful when FCOB quite literally punishes death to begin (tethers in both T10 and T11)

Ideally SMN should be better in the single target department but in actuality it isn't. Why else did they buff BLM when it was suffering from all the movement in SCOB? Mainly because it started getting shunned in those turns. SMN is already falling to this because of bards being forced to use an MP song exclusively for them sometimes. Not as efficient to do its job.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

A summoner in theory should excel at something over a BLM though otherwise there becomes no reason to play the class. If you were to then say combat raise, tell me how is this useful when FCOB quite literally punishes death to begin (tethers in both T10 and T11)

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so then tell me, why u should ever play a blm when smn outdmg him ?
combat rais not useful? dude pls. if a heal dies its not useful to raise him? cmon thats bullshit and u know it.

a summoner should only outdmg other jobs when there is a fight where u can dot 2 or 3 targets over a longer duration. i know manaprobs, and yes i do think the cost should be lowered, but no dmg buff needed at all. singletarget they shoud stay where they are.

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Originally Posted by athenia

so then tell me, why u should ever play a blm when smn outdmg him ?

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A BLM excels in the burst and sustained AoE-damage department in addition to being completely self-sufficient.

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Originally Posted by athenia

combat rais not useful? dude pls. if a heal dies its not useful to raise him? cmon thats bullshit and u know it.

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If you talk about a SMNs combat raise in a dungeon environment, it is useful and should be used there.
During raids, however, raising another party member severely hits your mana and lessens your dps - and the BRDs dps in the long run. Also, as Havenchild stated, FCOB has a numerous mechanics were deaths are punished so harshly that you might as well wipe/have wiped.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

The sphere takes half the damage from magical attacks though ? So the difference during that part won't be as big as you think especially since I am on the cube the whole phase and only switch to the sphere towards the end if the other DPS are slacking.

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I'll have to double check. I thought that the DOT damage being Neutral bypassed the 1/2 Magic damage.

From what I know about the fight as well, you can Miasma the Egg to stop it, stand close to get the shield buff and that lets you attack it. Then the others don't need to be kited. Still pretty good damage potential.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Was thinking about this recently, and I actually have a question re: MP issues. I'm no Summoner and I've no idea how much Piety you'd need to make it matter, but if you melded head + hands + belt with Piety IVs/Piety IIIs, would that make any difference in Turn 10-13? You'd be missing out on Crit on the head and Accuracy on the belt/hands, but I was curious how much MP you'd need to offset the issues SMN has in FCoB. Is it too significant to mend through just materia?

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You would need to meld 134 Piety to reach 4k MP - that value giving you 1600 MP/min refresh +800 MP Aetherflow would keep you from going OOM for about 8 mins using nothing but Ruin II in your normal roation. You would probably need 100% AA damage to compensate for the loss of say not putting 134 DET just doing a normal rotation and conserving MP.

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Originally Posted by silentstack

A BLM excels in the burst and sustained AoE-damage department in addition to being completely self-sufficient.

During raids, however, raising another party member severely hits your mana and lessens your dps - and the BRDs dps in the long run..

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so a smn, if hes able to bane a RS and contagioned set of dots to 4 targets does no massive aoe dmg? u can even save ur enkidle for that to have some aoe burst.
but i guess u can play smn or? and as i said - summoners should get their manacost reduced, so they can dot more targets without getting oom.

lol so u want to tell me, if a whm or a sch dies u instantly wipe the grp? if the WHM dies and u raise him, the bard will play a manasong and ull get ur mana back for sure.
same with the sch. Sure there are parts of the fight where u just cant die cause u need dmg or heal or whatever, but its not a wipe every single time.

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Originally Posted by athenia

far from lowest cause of what ? theres no reason why a smn should do more dmg than drg, nin, monk or blm. ur at the same lvl as a bard, i would say even higher if played well and i really see no reason why u should outdmg the other classes.

that thin with spellspeed is a a good idea, but there are several more things they need to change if the want to do a mechanic like that.

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I really don't even know where to begin with this. Why is SMN on the same level as BRD? BRD gives buffs that affect ALL party members within range. SMN shouldn't be dealing more damage, but should be on par with BLM MNK DRG NIN. NIN has more utility than SMN does and it's currently sitting on top with MNK. Damage between DPS classes should be close enough where the higher DPS is the person who plays the job better. Battle rez is the most overrated utility spell in the game. Is it nice to have? Yes. Once your group has mastered a fight you really shouldn't need it for the clear anyways.

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Originally Posted by athenia

lol so u want to tell me, if a whm or a sch dies u instantly wipe the grp?

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The majority of the time this is the case, the strain on the party and the reduction in effective mana management and dps is enough to constitute a wipe. It's much easier to wipe and redo the phase cleanly than to lose the dps and flow of the raid.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I really don't even know where to begin with this. Why is SMN on the same level as BRD? BRD gives buffs that affect ALL party members within range. SMN shouldn't be dealing more damage, but should be on par with BLM MNK DRG NIN. NIN has more utility than SMN does and it's currently sitting on top with MNK. Damage between DPS classes should be close enough where the higher DPS is the person who plays the job better. Battle rez is the most overrated utility spell in the game. Is it nice to have? Yes. Once your group has mastered a fight you really shouldn't need it for the clear anyways.

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he talked about being higher than others, not at the same lvl and i see no reason why smn should be higher or equal on single target. if they would be higher or equal, they would be on top if they can dot more than one target.

In response to the community posts regarding a few points of my post, I would like to address the 2 aspects of SMN utility and the comparison of BLM to SMN that many seem to bring up.


Breaking down the SMN utility skills:

Eye for an Eye – WHM/BLM/SCH Shared; useful but not game breaking to have and not SMN exclusive

Virus (+Job Bonus) – BLM/WHM/SCH Shared; Reduced DMG debuff, 1 min Boss restriction; no encounter at this current time requires 2 SMN/SCH Viruses to be used consecutively to result in completion; and to factor in this is rarely a deal maker.

Resurrection (res):

There seems to be a misconception about the viability of Res outside of farm or non-endgame content.

To specify, endgame content is expressed entirely in this aspect as minimal gear for maximum efficiency versus content. (IE. completing T10-13 in 110/melded 110 with minimal 120/130 pieces.)

The only point in which death in a raid is reasonably recoverable or even practical is when one overgears the encounter enough to allow for such a mistakes. This is not the case that I speak of when discussing these issues.

A SMN res consumes a significant amount of mana, resulting in a massive DPS loss. In a progression environment, Res is a non-factor in selecting composition. The encounters do not allow you to die and still meet the DPS check or mana management requirement. [IF the SMN received a no or very low cost mana res, this may become a more arguable point.]

My original reference notes were expressed entirely from the perspective of capabilities of classes in estimated 110 vs ability to complete content (class DPS output capacity). I would imagine once you attain 130 parts and start to overgear the encounter, many of these issues will seem less of a problem.

What overgearing an encounter allows is to bring non-optimal class compositions and still complete the content; this does not address the issue that there are classes and compositions that are clearly better.

When broken down the fundamental issue of class balance will still exist. For example (the world first kill composition) broken down by DPS capacity estimates:

MNK/MNK/BRD/BLM –Assuming 1 Dragon Kick (480+/500+/400+/450+) [1830+ Raid DPS]
Vs
MNK/BRD/BLM/SMN – 480+/400+/450+/430+ [1760+ raid DPS]

Using a 70+ Raid DPS difference in composition as estimate; the factor of 70+ DPS over a say 13 minute fight; comes out to 54,600 Damage. 70 DPS may not seem a massive value, but when a boss has 1 million HP+, that total value comes out to 5% health. That is a massive difference.

Now, with the already existing top end difference shown, let us say someone in the group with the SMN dies and the SMN utility of res is used; is that really going to assist the raid in doing +70 extra DPS? Not in the least.

Death in content that you do not overgear will mostly result in a wipe for your raid unless you are already close to the kill.

One may look at this example and state this as either a positive note for the MNK class, or a negative note for every other class. I see no issue with the current capacity output of melee classes, or the fact that they are dominant versus others. They bring less utility but allow them to become a standing turret of damage. [Though currently it appears the Ninja class brings both, and competes with the MNK class.]

The MNK vs NIN issue and the future of these 2 classes are beyond the scope of this thread or my understanding of the classes, therefore, I will not speak further on this.

The primary issue is the exponential difference in output capacity between DoM and DoW classes in raid environments.


BLM and SMN comparisons:

A few notes have been posted concerning SMN DPS gain if they become too mana efficient. I fail to see the relation of SMN DPS increasing due to being able to dot more targets. If granted better mana efficiency, this would allow SMNs to sustain their current damage capacity for longer, but in effect it would not drastically increase their capacity as a whole.

By nature of the class, if there were 2 bosses of equal health on 2 sides of the room, which allowed for SMN to put full strength DoTs on both, in effect this could result in the SMN being top DPS for that specific encounter. However, is this not the nature of the encounter as opposed to the nature of the class? [No such fight exists at this time.]

It also seems people misunderstand the base of SMN damage as a whole. 30% of our damage is limited to single target via pet, 10% via single target ruin, 15-20% single target if allowed to use only fester with pre-ruin 2, 5% Shadow Flare, totaling 65% single target limitation; thus 3 DoTs can be estimated at approximately a 35% DPS increase per additional target. Using a breakdown of 430 DPS cap [430 x 35% = 150 DPS], an additional target would allow the SMN to push 580 DPS for the fight if and only when optimal uptime and dot ticks were allowed. [Keeping in mind this maximum potential is only achievable if the SMN has the mana capacity, and even with an infinite mana pool, the DPS would not increase further.]

[Note also the time of recasting on multiple targets individually result in downtime of fillers, though only by a small percentage, there is a DPS loss that can result in not attaining a pure 35% gain; possible leaning closer towards 30% in theory.]

The SMN will never out DPS a MNK/NIN/BLM in single target, I do not see any balance being broken in an environment that is friendlier to the SMN class occurs, that such the case result in higher DPS for a SMN. Just as a single target boss favors a single target class.

Alternately, a SMN will never outdamage a BLM in an AoE environment, even if Bane was not capped at 3 target transfer. Why? The SMN DoT total that ticks every 3 seconds is not equal to the capacity of a BLMs AoE per hit damage. Due to the nature of 65% of our DPS being limited to a single target, each additional mob would be equivalent to a 35% DPS increase maximum per mob. Due to the potency of a single BLM hit being greater than a DoT tick every 3 seconds, BLM will never lose in the AoE fight to a SMN. This in its own right is currently balanced and should not change.

A SMN is technically incapable of doing more DPS on grouped targets, and only possible if and when there are mobs out of the BLM AoE capability.

By nature, SMN DPS is limited to DoT ticks. Casting more dots, or faster, does not increase the DPS of a SMN. DoTs tick every 3 seconds for a set amount, only advanced further by Foes Requiem or a Raging Strikes. For example, an increased mana cap on a BLM allowing them to stay in Astral Fire 3, throwing more Fire IIs in that phase, would effectively increase the capacity of BLM, but such is not the case with the SMN class. The nature of our damage is limited at a cap of the total tick of 3 DoTs every 3 seconds. The SMN DPS value is a constant and does not fluctuate based on mana.

To conclude, the current BLM vs SMN DPS capabilities are balanced, and do not require a change. BLM doing more single target and better AoE are only trumped by SMN under 1 specified condition; when targets are separated beyond AoE range. This seems very fair a tradeoff to the nature and style of these 2 classes.


Finally:

On a personal note, I am disappointed with some of the responses regarding the class issues in response to comparison of other classes on a 1 to 1 comparison (DRG vs SMN, SMN vs BLM). This is not a topic about how 1 DPS class should be better than another; I am purely expressing the shortcoming of my class in reference to all viability in a raid composition. Though I am expressing that there should be consideration in closing the gap between DoM and DoW classes respectively.

1 on 1, each class has its own advantages, but this is not a game that runs 1 DPS/1Tank/1Healer, therefore I approach this in terms of raid composition as a holistic comparison.

The Summoner is broken in terms of balance because there is no point in bringing them to Raids besides nerfing your party. The Summoner use to excel at single target damage over the Black Mage until the Black Mage got buff. Now the Black Mage excels at both Single Target and AoE Bursts Damage which leaves the Summoner with nothing. It's the WoW Warlock all over again where the main reason people didn't like the class was because it was mediocre in every area the Warlock didn't excel at anything it was in the game for no reason at all.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner is broken in terms of balance because there is no point in bringing them to Raids besides nerfing your party. The Summoner use to excel at single target damage over the Black Mage until the Black Mage got buff. Now the Black Mage excels at both Single Target and AoE Bursts Damage which leaves the Summoner with nothing.

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You're talking in exaggerations. Given your dots and the possible use of Ruin II you can keep up most of your DPS - for a short amount of time due to mana-constraints - while being exceedingly mobile.

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Originally Posted by Dinocat

Stuffs

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Point on Raise - Yes, definitely in these endgame environments you can't really afford one person to die. But in saying that it is a huge DPS loss for Summoner to raise someone, is not quite right. Say a 10 minute fight if you had to raise two people. That's say 30 Aetherflow stacks and it takes close to 3 Energy Drains (266 MP) to recover from each Raise cast. So 6 Energy Drains, which leaves 24 for Fester. This totals out to be a 5 DPS loss over the course of the fight. (3000 Damage)

SMN DPS Breakdown (not including AA for overall %)
@ i110 using Fester alone is close to 50 DPS (11.6%)
Garuda is around 110 DPS (25%)
Ruin is around 80 DPS (18.6)
DoT's is around 190 DPS (including Shadow Flare) (44.2%)
AA is around 25 DPS with Ruin II Spam

Total 455 DPS (430 without AA)

Obviously this changes in multi-mob non-AOE situations where you are casting dots instead of Ruins.

But this would further push your DOT %
2 Mobs -> 48 DPS Ruin -> Around 300 DPS (Dots only)
3 Mobs -> 32 DPS Ruin -> Around 410 DPS (Dots only)

SMN AOE Potential
5 GCD = 150 Potency per 3s per 4 mobs (125 Potency per GCD equivalent)
Blizzard II 50 Potency per GCD

Total 175 Potency Per GCD (550 Damage) per mob 900 DPS - Not extremely terrible.

I won't say much to the subject since most things in my opinion have been mentioned by the OP already so I'll avoid repetition. But one thing I would imagine giving Spell Speed a value for Summoners would be if Spell Speed was influencing your Egi's auto attack rate enough to give it value.

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Originally Posted by athenia

he talked about being higher than others, not at the same lvl and i see no reason why smn should be higher or equal on single target. if they would be higher or equal, they would be on top if they can dot more than one target.

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lol, i didnt mean higher, i geuss my bad for saying it like that, but i meant at least on equal footing with the rest.
but i meant it more it shouldnt be a low dps class. :)

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Originally Posted by silentstack

You're talking in exaggerations. Given your dots and the possible use of Ruin II you can keep up most of your DPS - for a short amount of time due to mana-constraints - while being exceedingly mobile.

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Black Mages have infinite Mana and since the Buff they now excel at both single target and aoe burst damage while the Summoner is in the middle of the pack at best. The Summoner got silently nerfed in 2.2 while the Black Mage and other dps classes got buffed.

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Originally Posted by Dinocat

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I enjoy your posts, very well made.

I do however disagree with one point. The current BLM is quite capable of out dpsing a SMN in the single target field on 1v1 scenarios. (Largely we can all agree due to the mana inefficiency of the SMN class, but that's more of a SMN retaining their Burst argument.) At current BLMs, have the utensils and the inate make up of class, to win big in every enviorment. They never run out of Mana while a SMN does. They excel in the 1 v 1 scenario, whereas a SMN is like you said majorly focused on single target scenarios. Largely I believe you stated it, or not so sure if it was lost somewhere in there but

"To conclude, the current BLM vs SMN DPS capabilities are balanced, and do not require a change. BLM doing more single target and better AoE are only trumped by SMN under 1 specified condition; when targets are separated beyond AoE range. This seems very fair a tradeoff to the nature and style of these 2 classes. "

What fight, has this setup atm? Anything you can Bane off of in FCOB, a BLM can Double Flare / Fire II.

T10 -> Sons/ Daughters, Dot up daughter, Contagion Bane (-> other AoE Dots on that set if you want to ) otherwise switch and dot the other side, BUT, this all changes once, your Sons and daughters start dying before your ticks even fully finish. and once again like you said, it ultimately means nothing if the BLM is winning in Both single Target AND AoE, which is whats currently happening. Your not even getting a full duration on all your DoTs on any given 3 Mobs at a time usually.

At one point SMNs at least reigned in the single target realm and that was balanced then. Why bring a SMN now if the utility they offer is borrowed by a BLM already with Virus( questionable for even overlapping this. Most healers mainly SCHS like to control Virus usage) and EoE (Both Share). Outside of Ressing (barely should see usage with all the punishing mechanics in FCOB and DPS loss), why bring a SMN? BLM is doing more DPS in both the Single Target and the AoE scenarios in generally all of FCOB. This is also ignoring the fact that gear optimization HIGHLY favors BLM in almost every single peice vs a SMN. How is this balanced?

The only fight that has what you pointed out, is FCOB T11, where a SMN can dot an Electric Node (contagion that), and a Gravity node where as a BLM in the same party could just sit on the Gravity node.

Granted like Kairi said before, there are more better then average SMNs then there are BLMs, but if were talking about people of equal skill of their classes, this becomes a relevant issue.


On an off tangent, the BLM vs SMN arguments atm at least ones I've presented, are akin to the DRG situation atm.

Why bring a Dragoon with some utility (and also less MDEF) when there is now a class that can do more utility AND more DPS?

Dragoons are not impacted the same way Summoners are because raid groups will always have two melees slots so they can still get spot in a End Game Raid. Their is only one caster slot in a raid group and the Black Mage automatically gets it. Every PF looking for FCOB static look exclusively for Black Mages. The Summoner issue in Final Fantasy XI has come to Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn Summoners are trash when it comes to End Game Raiding now.

The Black Mage excels in Sustained Single Target Burst and AoE Bursts. Nerfing the Black Mage's Single Target Damage will cause more problems among the community then it will solve. Maybe to balance it SE should make the Summoner excel at Single Target Spike Damage and AoE Spike Damage it's a fair trade off since the Black Mage now steps all over the Summoner in every area.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Dragoons are not impacted the same way Summoners are because raid groups will always have two melees slots so they can still get spot in a End Game Raid. Their is only one caster slot in a raid group and the Black Mage automatically gets it. Every PF looking for FCOB static look exclusively for Black Mages. The Summoner issue in Final Fantasy XI has come to Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn Summoners are trash when it comes to End Game Raiding now.

The Black Mage excels in Sustained Single Target Burst and AoE Bursts. Maybe to balance it SE will make the Summoner excel at Single Target Spike Damage and AoE Spike Damage it's a fair trade off since the Black Mage now steps all over the Summoner. The Summoner should step all over the Black Mage.

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OP's static as well as mine and many others have two casters in them so your point is invalid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Dragoons are not impacted the same way Summoners are because raid groups will always have two melees slots so they can still get spot in a End Game Raid. Their is only one caster slot in a raid group and the Black Mage automatically gets it. Every PF looking for FCOB static look exclusively for Black Mages. The Summoner issue in Final Fantasy XI has come to Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn Summoners are trash when it comes to End Game Raiding now.

The Black Mage excels in Sustained Single Target Burst and AoE Bursts. Maybe to balance it SE will make the Summoner excel at Single Target Spike Damage and AoE Spike Damage it's a fair trade off since the Black Mage now steps all over the Summoner. The Summoner should step all over the Black Mage.

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Spike is the same thing as burst and Dragoons are in dire need of adjustments. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?