If You Tanks Can't Handle Your Oversized Pulls...

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

As a Paladin, I make sure that I never pull more than I can keep aggro on. But lately, I've been getting pressure from DDs to pull bigger. To the extent that some of them will run ahead of the party, pull more monsters, and bring them back to me, expecting me to pull the additional monsters off them.

I don't.

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There is a special circle of hell for DPS who pull things out of impatience with the party's pacing. For me, it's always Bards in Syrcus Tower right in the middle of a Ready Check.

When I over pull, I always blame myself or under estimating the party.

As the tank I don't over pull the 1st group because it lets me find out what the group will be able to do and the rest goes good.

Finally DPS shouldn't be pulling anything it mess with hate, the tank may not be ready, the tank maybe low on TP/MP(TP mainly because that stat is hidden).

I wish I could get tanks that do big pulls. I normally end up with a tank that only pulls one group and a melee DPS that may as well not be there because he'll single target one mob until it dies leaving us with two mobs around 60% health. As a BLM this is frustrating because now I have to switch to single target DPS when I could have been AoEing three mobs (AoE not worth it on two). The melee DPS is wasted because had he spread his DPS the mob he killed would have lost HP from my AoEs. As for the tank pulling a single group, well my Mega Ethers certainly aren't coming out for those extra Flares. With Convert, Raging Strikes and Quelling strikes also down after the first group the next two groups are going to be painfully slow and you're likely to lose hate to my Fire IIs. It's fine I'll pop Manawall and tank it for you since they're so weak.

they do it because they used to be able to do it with other party.

don't see anything wrong with large group pulling but tanks should have ask the party first if they can do it or not.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

If the healer is sufficiently geared, but simply chooses to slack in an expert roulette, the healer can expect a vote kick.

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And those that abuse vote kick can expect to speak to the GM. And then you can get stuck waiting as well.

Speedrunners do NOT get the right to run roughshod over everyone else. They do NOT get to force their play style on everyone the meet in the DF. There is nothing wrong with slowing it down. The tank gets to initiate, but the tank nor the healer nor the DPS gets to set the pace. The pace gets worked out by the group as whole. Too many times I had to tell the tank that the healer needs to recharge mp or wait for the healer to get protect on everyone. Slow down, there is no need to blindly rush everything. Whatever happened to playing for fun and having a good time talking, communicating, and making strategy and tactics work out well? There are too many people that muddle thru stuff like Sastasha HM and Qarn HM, and still do NOT know what they are really supposed to do with the second bosses.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And those that abuse vote kick can expect to speak to the GM. And then you can get stuck waiting as well.

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Have to this date never been contacted by GM for kicking a healer who is simply not healing, or healing far from (s)he ought to be capable off. Not in this game, nor in any other single MMO.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

Have to this date never been contacted by GM for kicking a healer who is simply not healing.....

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That is utter BS. You go from "slack" to "simply not healing", a great way to move the goal posts and misrepresent healers. AFK healer being vote kicked is never the issue. Healers that can not keep up with crazy speed runs being vote kicked is vote kick abuse. You may have gotten lucky not getting reported, but I would advise you NOT to test your luck. Fact is, there was problematic FC member well known for their troll like behavior who was eventually kicked out of the FC back in the 2.2 era, complain to us how some little "expletives" reported him for big pulls and wiping the party. We all told him, he deserved the penalty he got.

Like everyone i do a few checks before concluding i can do some big pulls.

Everyone above atleast i105?
What classes do I have? 2 BLM ? yep. BLM and BRD? yep. Melee + BLM/BRD. Doable might just be a bit longer. Summoners at all? Doable just might drag a bit. 2 Melees? mayybbb pushin it a bit but can still do it if they aoe properly. People might not like melee's for AoE but they can do AoE pretty effectively (Doomspike, Ring of Thorns, Dragonfire dive, Perfect Balance + Monk AOE, Ninja Blossom AoE, Katon and Doton).

Its also nice if the Tank or I know how the architecture of the dungeon is. Knowing exactly where each pull is at can help determine how You or the tank can pull and use cooldowns.

but than again ever so often you get dem impatient dps and healer that just goes out of their way to pull things that they think the party can handle and NOPE.

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Originally Posted by Novaura

You did read my OP right?

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I did read this :

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Originally Posted by Novaura

...then just scale back and take it slower. In the last 2 days, I have been in expert and high level roulettes where the tank pulled more monsters than they were capable of handling and in 4 of those cases, after the tank died on the first pull, they either quit or blamed the rest of the party for dying and got kicked immediately thereafter.

It seems that the crazies from Brayflox's Longstop Hard have gotten loose from their cage and are spreading throughout the other dungeons. If this is a sign of things to come, I am worried for everyone who doesn't play dungeons as a tank.:(

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There is no informations about other people stuffs, Ilevels, jobs, skills or what were the exact situations...

It's kind of easy to tell an horror story by starting to the moment where everyone get killed by a monster, sorry but I'm too old for fairy tale :p I just wanted to point out that blaming tanks in your shared story doesn't answer all questions and mostly one :
Why did people died... And the common/usual answer to this is :

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

The real problem is lack of communications between players when starting the duty.
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For a matter of respect, even if you consider yourself as a good and well geared player, you have to carefuly examine and talk with your team mates before trying to do a speed run.

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It only seems to be an issue in Snowcloak for me and not a common one. I think out of all my runs so far, maybe two have gone bad. Speed runs are doable, but I feel like they're better reserved for a party you've composed yourself than random Duty Finder participants.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Why some tanks do this, I'll never know. But AMEN to your statement that they need to scale back and take it slower.

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The answer is pretty obvious: impatience. From their perspective they are forced to do DoA content so that they can gear up and tackle the relevant content so they want to get the grind out of the way ASAP. Hence why Brayflox HM was a popualr place (especially back when you got all the myth after the first 2 bosses) as well as why the Hunt was abused the way it did at 2.3

Tbh, I've been on the opposite end of this situation, where I will be tanking in one of the new dungeons and for the sake of expedience I will pull two groups of mobs that are close together and have two aoe capable classes (two bards, blm+brd, etc.) and they single target through every group even after I ask them if they would please use aoe's when 3+ mobs are pulled. I don't die or really have any trouble with the pull, it just ends up taking forever to get through the dungeon. That and I've run into a lot of df healers that wait until I'm at <20% health before throwing out a heal before they go back to just sitting back and doing nothing. In the end I feel that it is not just about bad/lazy tanks, healers or dps but that there has been a large influx of bad and lazy players queueing for roulettes and just expecting for the rest of the party to carry them through.

Every tank needs to determine what he can handle at the start of every dungeon. You also have to do it pretty quick as people will get impatient. He/She needs to see:

- What his party make up is.
- How geared everyone is.
- Is there an "Adventurer in Need" bonus. (Pull less if someone is new)


Pulling one or two groups at a time (after level 50) is just silly. If you're not pulling 3-4 groups then you are not using any of the tools at your disposal. Your healers mp will be full and your tanks cooldowns will be gathering dust. I've mass pulled every dungeon and rarely have my healers run out of mp. And there's almost always a chunk of downtime between "mass pulls" that lets your cooldowns come back (running down corridors, single group road blocks you have to open, bosses etc.)

That said, the best way to learn is by pulling larger and larger groups. You'll eventually memorize every dungeons mob locations and know how much is safe as your gear level rises. If your party gets mad if you wipe, don't worry about it, mass pulling is a learning experience. However, there are some things you can do to make impossible pulls possible. The difference between a party wipe and mob extinction usually comes down to a heal or a benediction that was 1 second too late. This can be easily remedied:


Paladin
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- Use Convalescence -right- at the start. Regens are one of the first things that will be applied to you and they can practically keep you alive on their own if they are buffed by your +30% HP recovered cooldown. Get it up quick before the regens start raining down on you.

- Stagger your cooldowns one or two at a time. Don't pop them all at the start and be defenseless during the second half of the battle.

- Hallowed Ground when you see the healer is losing the fight (obviously... but!) Five seconds before Hallowed wears off use an HQ Vitality Potion, this gives the healer time to top you up to an incredibly high HP level before you take damage again. Percent based heals and stoneskin will be more effective from that pot as well.

- Stun. Shield bash the four biggest threats to your party. Take each of them out of the fight for 6 seconds and your healer will be able to catch up on healing no problem.

- Sprint. When hate has been established and your cooldowns have all been used.. hit sprint and kite the mobs in a large circle! You'll still be hit by range attacks but you'll be taking significantly less damage while sprint is up. This is something I never see Tanks take advantage of.

- Tank LB. There's no point saving this for silly bosses. Pulling large packs sometimes requires everything. Blm and Smn rarely AoE LB. If they aren't taking advantage of it then use it yourself. When five dragons are using five "Strident Screams" to one-shot the entire party: Tank LB.

- Face the majority of the mobs! Blocking and Parrying do NOT work if you are being hit from behind. If mobs are surrounding you in a circle only one or two are going to be blocked and parried. Put your back against a wall, target a mob directly in the middle of the pack (so you are constantly facing the majority of them) THEN hit Bulwark.

- Stoneskin spam. You should be saving most of your MP for using Flash to maintain hate. But a few Stoneskins afterwards can save your life. This isn't used very often when you have so much more at your disposal, but if your healer is dead, stoneskin spam can sometimes keep you alive long enough to finish the battle.

- Extras. Eat food. Use Cover more often. Bloodbath + Fight or Flight + Circle of Scorn for a few hundred HP. And don't take wiping so seriously. (^_^)

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

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If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

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It's using all the tools you have to survive. It's learning how to conquer every mass pull no matter how large it is. Keeping the Tank alive is priority #1 above all else. I'm sorry, but "precious melee DPS" can wait a few seconds until the healer has control of the situation again. Hallowed, Sprint, and LB give the healer the short bursts of time they need to regain control if the tank see's they are falling behind. Party wiping usually comes down to a heal that was 1 second too late. These abilities save party wipes plain and simple.

You practice using all of these tools and pulling four to five groups of mobs becomes easy. Thus far, there isn't a dungeon in the game where I haven't been able to mass pull every single mob in the area and survive. All of the Dragons at the end of Stone Vigil Hard usually requires Tank LB. As well as the five Dragons at the end of Snowcloak. Hallowed Ground makes all the mobs in the Hullbreakers Isle Cave much simpler. And sprint has saved my life more than I can count.

full support of this post. I can't even count how many times I've had 'punch me in the face' tanks grab mobs like shoppers on Black Friday. Even when their life is below half and dropping fast, the limp-noodles continue to pull even more mobs. And the dps usually consist of a Nin and Smn. Not enough AoE to bring down large large groups fast enough. ilvl for these dungeons is 80. Not 120. You tanks who do this can say you control the pace of the dungeon, Rawr! My epeen is SO thick. Your bravado mean nothing if you have no one to heal your idiot ass. You are nothing without your healer. We healers aren't much without DPS and a Tank. DPS needs us BOTH. Overall, we're it's a TEAM effort. Not another session of you stroking your epeen, which is the size of half a pack of Rolaids at best. To the tanks who are considerate and thoughtful, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I will give my all to keep you alive, and I regret than I cannot queue to heal for you again.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

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We're talking about lots of trash though, if you don't allow the melee to do their job and kill things, it's not going to ease up on the healer. There will be the same amount of mobs ready to deal the same amount of damage once you stop running or sprint runs out. And sprint isn't going to last very long considering you would have been using TP to fight. Now, if you have a NIN, then kiting becomes a bit more plausible. I have kited as a NIN, throw down the AoE that heavies and pick them off one by one, but what your suggesting just doesn't seem as plausible. Picking them off decrease the groups required HPS. I would suggest picking ones off that don't go AoE, since you can just avoid that stuff.

If you have the LB at the end of Snowcloak, you're pulling too much for the healer. Those five dragons can easily be handled with the number of CDs given to PLD or WAR without the use of LB, that's just silly to waste it there. Yes, waste it. The time benefits from using it there as opposed to on the boss just doesn't add up to it.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

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I don't agree with that assessment to be fair. In Sastasha HM when pulling the mobs prior to the final boss the sudden incoming damage is very heavy. Whilst the healer is still running and just settling in place, it may be very tough to keep the tank up in that pull. By starting with hallowed ground I've not had a single fail thus far. When about to run out, followed by sentinel and convalescence to allow some extra warming up for the healer. And once that runs out, the trash is mostly nuked to death already.

In case of 2 MDPS the lack of AoE skills makes it very tricky to pull off. Not impossible when running with guildies, however wouldn't do it with PUGs :p.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

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We use HG as part of our usual strat for speed running when we do a premade expert, tank pulls everything in sight, HG so healer can drop 3 Holy without worrying about heals, overgeared BLM and SMN melt everything or half of everything by the time tanks health becomes an issue, if no HG then benediction is used at the end of triple holy.

Caster LB helps a lot too for those big packs.

HG and those def buffs makes PLD >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WAR when it comes to speed running with massive pulls, if DPS can kill them fast enough.

@Galactimus "When five dragons are using five "Strident Screams" to one-shot the entire party" - if you are stacking FIVE aevis then you are not doing your job properly, there's no reason to stack those harriers that use dragon blood with the other aevis, if you split them in two groups healer time will be better spent dpsing than casting medica.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

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It's not that I am against the use of the LB or HG for big pulls in dungeon, I just think it's unfair to put that strain on a DF group where you don't know the players' level of skill. Yeah, I like fast dungeons but I also like to be alive and HG won't get you out of every pull. :P

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Originally Posted by Alukah

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This looks at pre-made though and I think WAR and PLD are equally capable of large pulls. Offensive debuffs, vengeance, and bloodbath give a nice HP return on large trash pulls while dealing extra damage and aggro compared to that of a PLD. But, it depends on what your healer is use to, either or. Wouldn't put one above the other.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

It's not that I am against the use of the LB or HG for big pulls in dungeon, I just think it's unfair to put that strain on a DF group where you don't know the players' level of skill. Yeah, I like fast dungeons but I also like to be alive and HG won't get you out of every pull. :P

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Obviously if the healer appears to be struggling on earlier packs of mobs, I won't do it on the last pack there :p. But most often it's alright.