Extend Classes into full Jobs?

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Originally Posted by Cadwgan

Sorry for butting in here but it's been stated multiple times by Yoshida and the dev team that if it doesn't play sufficiently differently they're not adding it, there is literally no point in having two jobs play the same. A lot of jobs fill the same role but PLD doesn't play like WAR, DRG not like MNK, SMN not like BLM, WHM not like SCH, etc, they all perform the same basic function but play sufficiently different to justify being a separate entity.

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ACN (the Job) doesn't have to play like SMN.

They could go with what they initially planned for ACN - sort of. Have AoE spells with patterns on the ground with all sort of effects.

ACN lore is all about tactics. SMN lore is all about ... Primal summons.

I can see an ACN Job that uses Carbuncles to lay "magic patterns" on the ground then the ACN exploits those patterns for damage or whatever

or

extend the Carbuncles' abilities to do crowd control (in addition to their current damage) allowing them to move mobs into specific patterns which the ACN's abilities will take advantage of

- i.e. the Carbies do set up, the ACN knocks in the blows.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

That is why they chose to not add a base class to dark knight because they did not know how to add the class/job in without having to feel obligated expand upon it in the future by adding more jobs to it when it is probably in such a niche role to begin with.

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I personally feel the whole class/job system is messy and inelegant - there is little consistency to it.

Yoshi-P doesn't even like the system and finds it cramps the adding of new Jobs - every new Job has been a new class as well ...

I hope they "fix up the system" sometime in the future.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

In WoW every class specialization is viable because they function in a role and play radically different from each other with different mechanics. Players don't build their own class they just choose a tree to specialize in so it makes it easier to put in hybrid and support classes. In order to keep the class system SE has to either add polarity between the Classes or Jobs by further specializing the Job system and Classes or scrap the Class system and simply have Jobs.

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Viability is not serious play, I'm not even sure what your talking about either, because it is certainly not World of Warcraft.

The classes are jobs so what do you even mean, besides that you want Summoner split from Arcanist so it can be reworked? And you feel like scraping the class system, leaving only jobs would allow that to happen.

What if they add a new skill set and traits from level 30, when you use the soul crystal?
Im pretty sure there are lot of players that would like to play an actual Thief or Ninja jobs instead of playing an hybrid thief with some ninjutsu. Same with Summoner: it is an Arcanist jobs with some pets that dont feel like a true summons. This is not Final Fantasy IMHO

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Originally Posted by Noelzzz

Im pretty sure there are lot of players that would like to play an actual Thief or Ninja jobs instead of playing an hybrid thief with some ninjutsu. Same with Summoner: it is an Arcanist jobs with some pets that dont feel like a true summons. This is not Final Fantasy IMHO

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It's not just the abilities and combat mechanics.

Lore-wise ROG and NIN have nothing to do with one another. ROGs effectively work for the thalassocracy as undercover agents. NINs are ... ninjas, mystical fighters that use magic, with a history and tradition of their own.

SMNs aren't advance ACNs. ACNs are about tactics and strategic application of magic. SMNs are about utilizing the dangerous might of the Primals.

Just because you like to be one, doesn't mean you would want to be the other.

It's kind of a waste too. All the Class lore is abandoned once you hit 30. You effectively stop being that Class and become another.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

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All the specs in WoW (differences only when it comes to min/maxing) were feasible in performing their respective roles, at least it was after TBC.

The problem here is that the game treats job advancements as just that, an advancement. Not an actual class change or anything. A ninja is just a rogue with ninja skills in design. A DRG is a Lancer with DRG skills, etc etc. You have the matter of
>The job advancement being well representative of the job. Dragoons fit this perfectly since they get mostly jumps which is a standard for FF dragoons. Ninjas also fit this with the concept of ninjitsu and having different animations from their class (rogue).
>Then you have jobs that do a piss poor job of representing what they are. I feel bards and paladins fall into this; I just feel like an archer who knows how to sing (especially when you learn a song before getting bard...) than being an actual bard.

Aesthetics aside, all the jobs are playing identical to their class counterparts, provided they (trying) to perform the same role. A SCH will do the exact same thing as a SMN when trying to dps, because all of SMN's dps abilities come from being an ACN. You cant particularly say the same for the opposite (SMN doing the exact same thing as a SCH when trying to heal), because SCH's healing abilities come from the job advancement, on top of that they're usually forgoing their dps that they won't use their class abilities anyway.

Now let's try that with something like Rogue to either ninja or thief. They're both going to be dps, and the only way you can differentiate them is through job skills. A thief is still going to use the same class skills as ninja, which serves as the foundation for how the class plays. If you wanted them to play differently, the job advancement would have to overhaul the class skills, or job advancement giving them an entire set of new skills that would outweigh using the class ones.

In the end, I wouldn't mind branching job advancements that would fit different play styles (similar to the talent spec system in WoW), such as an Archer becoming Bard or Ranger, or if they hadn't mentioned dark knight being job only... Marauder being Warrior or dark knight. It's just that in the current design of the game, it really disallows for branching job advancements within the same class that allows for diversely different playstyle.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

...Aesthetics aside, all the jobs are playing identical to their class counterparts, provided they (trying) to perform the same role. A SCH will do the exact same thing as a SMN when trying to dps, because all of SMN's dps abilities come from being an ACN. You cant particularly say the same for the opposite (SMN doing the exact same thing as a SCH when trying to heal), because SCH's healing abilities come from the job advancement, on top of that they're usually forgoing their dps that they won't use their class abilities anyway.

Now let's try that with something like Rogue to either ninja or thief. They're both going to be dps, and the only way you can differentiate them is through job skills. A thief is still going to use the same class skills as ninja, which serves as the foundation for how the class plays. If you wanted them to play differently, the job advancement would have to overhaul the class skills, or job advancement giving them an entire set of new skills that would outweigh using the class ones...

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Fester, Spur, Enkindle, differing cross-class skills, and the Pet attacking disagrees with Scholar doing the exact same as Summoner when they DPS. Similar yes, the exact same, no. Note the main Healing Spell a Scholar will use is Physick, they learned as an Arcanist. This is done so Scholar will have a Healing Spell, even when level synced in lower level instances.

The mark of any good Scholar or White Mage for that matter, is being able to Heal and DPS. If totally forgoing any sort of DPS, the player has great room for improvement.

Scholar is a special case. It focuses on proactive damage mitigation, over reactive healing. They have their Pet to heal assist, and branch from a DOT centric class kit, which allows them to better DPS and Heal. They are not a solid example to point to for why a Class can branch into more than one Job however. It was the specifics of changing roles, having a Pet to change as well, and being able to stitch support skills in Arcanist, which facilitated Scholar morphing into a Healer Job from a DPS class.

Once talking about a DPS Class splitting into more than one Job, it's completely different. Classes are all built with their intended Job in mind. Using the example of Rogue and Archer: Rogue has higher potency attacks, less positional requirements, and faster movement speed to make up for the downtime of Ninjutsu. Archer has lower DPS, a pseudo-DOT focus, A Healer LB to trade for the utility Songs and attacking while moving grant. If Rogue or Archer had other jobs attached to them, they would need to be drastically altered because they are designed to feed into and balance the Jobs they later become.

I honestly don't see anything like this happening. They kind of hinted at going away from the class part of jobs during the last live letter. It honestly would make sense. I'm not sure how many more base classes they could come out with for jobs in the future. It seems like they have already got the ones they will need in the game already.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

I honestly don't see anything like this happening. They kind of hinted at going away from the class part of jobs during the last live letter. It honestly would make sense. I'm not sure how many more base classes they could come out with for jobs in the future. It seems like they have already got the ones they will need in the game already.

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I think the reasonable camp would imagine that current classes will remain because it'd be more work to remove them, as well as retconning lore, than to keep them. I fully believe that new jobs will be just that, jobs without base classes. The ones we have now will remain but as time goes on the jobs that split will be more differential from each other because there will be a sizable amount of job skills between them.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

I honestly don't see anything like this happening. They kind of hinted at going away from the class part of jobs during the last live letter. It honestly would make sense. I'm not sure how many more base classes they could come out with for jobs in the future. It seems like they have already got the ones they will need in the game already.

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I'm not asking them to add more Classes. I can totally see them moving away from "Classes" in general.

I'm asking for existing Classes to be made into Jobs.

They don't have to do all of them - some like GLD don't really make sense as an "adventuring Job". But Classes like ACN deserves a life after Lv 30.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I think the reasonable camp would imagine that current classes will remain because it'd be more work to remove them, as well as retconning lore, than to keep them. I fully believe that new jobs will be just that, jobs without base classes. The ones we have now will remain but as time goes on the jobs that split will be more differential from each other because there will be a sizable amount of job skills between them.

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Extending Classes into full Jobs won't really need much reconning.

Existing Jobs will just branch off as they do now. They just need to add extra Job quests for the Class-now-Jobs. (Again, they don't have to do all of them.)

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Extending Classes into full Jobs won't really need much reconning.

Existing Jobs will just branch off as they do now. They just need to add extra Job quests for the Class-now-Jobs. (Again, they don't have to do all of them.)

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Totally agree with you: Arcanist, Rogue, Archer, Conjurer need to be usable in end game too

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Originally Posted by Noelzzz

Totally agree with you: Arcanist, Rogue, Archer, Conjurer need to be usable in end game too

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This is not what you want to hear, but they are. They're called Summoner/Scholar, Ninja, Bard, and White Mage.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

This is not what you want to hear, but they are. They're called Summoner/Scholar, Ninja, Bard, and White Mage.

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/sigh

6 pages and you still don't get it.

1. There is more to a Job than combat mechanics.
2. When upgrading Classes to full Jobs, they can add mechanics to differentiate the Class-now-Jobs from existing Jobs that branch off them.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

This is not what you want to hear, but they are. They're called Summoner/Scholar, Ninja, Bard, and White Mage.

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They're similar to Summoner, Ninja, Bard and White mage but not the same. And yes, i know its true this is why i would like to see them reworked

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Originally Posted by Noelzzz

They're similar to Summoner, Ninja, Bard and White mage but not the same. And yes, i know its true this is why i would like to see them reworked

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So when you gain exp what does it say?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

/sigh

6 pages and you still don't get it.

1. There is more to a Job than combat mechanics.
2. When upgrading Classes to full Jobs, they can add mechanics to differentiate the Class-now-Jobs from existing Jobs that branch off them.

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I full well understand what you are saying. However, I'm not so sure you understand why it would not be possible. Each class is built so that it feeds into and supports it's job skills. ACN is the unique case which can support multiple jobs, though with different roles.

Furthermore, Disciples of Magic and War are singularly about their combat mechanics, because they are combat jobs. Anything else is semantic, hair-splitting.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

/sigh

6 pages and you still don't get it.

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yeah like all the others who do not share your honorable opinion.
Or maybe we get it but you might be wrong?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

1. There is more to a Job than combat mechanics.

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No. It's a game where you play dungeons and raids in a group setup. combat mechanics are the very heart of a job.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

1. When upgrading Classes to full Jobs, they can add mechanics to differentiate the Class-now-Jobs from existing Jobs that branch off them.

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I understand you do not like the current class system - that's fine.
But it looks like they are not gonna throw it away, so no, the few job skills will not be enough to differentiate playstyle of SMN and ACN...
...and I'd rather see some really new jobs or classes than a second SMN with different pets.

It takes more then 5 skills to differentiate Jobs from Classes. Most people wanted Jobs to have different play styles and mechanics form their base class. Lore wise we dump our classes when we get Jobs but gameplay wise we are an extended version of the class.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

I full well understand what you are saying. However, I'm not so sure you understand why it would not be possible.

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Classes aren't set in stone. Neither are Jobs. Nothing is impossible.

I gave an example for ACN on page 5 #41.

Ideally they should do away with Classes all together. Have everything be a Job.

It's kind of dumb that they put so much effort into Class lore then toss it out of the window after Lv 30 - e.g. ROG.

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ACN is the unique case which can support multiple jobs

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Funny you should use ACN as an example. SCH is pretty different from ACN. Vast majority of the skills from ACN aren't used by SCH in their defined role.

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Furthermore, Disciples of Magic and War are singularly about their combat mechanics, because they are combat jobs. Anything else is semantic, hair-splitting.

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/sigh

Maybe you don't care about the lore but there are people that do.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

yeah like all the others who do not share your honorable opinion.
Or maybe we get it but you might be wrong?


No. It's a game where you play dungeons and raids in a group setup. combat mechanics are the very heart of a job.


I understand you do not like the current class system - that's fine.
But it looks like they are not gonna throw it away, so no, the few job skills will not be enough to differentiate playstyle of SMN and ACN...
...and I'd rather see some really new jobs or classes than a second SMN with different pets.

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No offence. Just because you don't have the imagination to see how a few skills can totally change the way a Job works, doesn't mean it's "not enough".

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Originally Posted by Akiza

It takes more then 5 skills to differentiate Jobs from Classes. Most people wanted Jobs to have different play styles and mechanics form their base class.

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It's not the number of skills but how the skills are designed.

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Lore wise we dump our classes when we get Jobs but gameplay wise we are an extended version of the class.

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This is a problem IMHO.

You play the Class and start to like the lore behind it ... then at Lv 30 you are told to forget about it and play something else. The transition is abrupt to the say the least.

PS:

To be frank, they could have just add a few skills to the base classes and call it a day, e.g. THM + Flare ... We got BLM from THM because players asked for it.

There is a certain cognitive dissonance when talking about "redundancy" given the current state of the Class/Job system. (Not to mention that Archer -> Bard is a tad weird ... What doesn't shooting arrows have to do with playing music?)

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Classes aren't set in stone. Neither are Jobs. Nothing is impossible.

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This is ever the favorite fall back of people who have nothing of substance to respond with...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Ideally they should do away with Classes all together. Have everything be a Job.

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And SE may going forward, they have at least with Dark Knight. However classes exist as they do now to highlight that you can play any class or job on a single Player Character. Cross-class skills reward players for trying more than one. Jobs requiring 30/15 also encourages players to try other classes.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Funny you should use ACN as an example. SCH is pretty different from ACN. Vast majority of the skills from ACN aren't used by SCH in their defined role.

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Physick is the number one Healing Spell used by a Scholar. This so even when level synced Scholar will still have a healing Spell. They also make heavy use of Aetherflow, Eye for an Eye, Virus, and Resurrection. Even still a good Scholar or White Mage for that matter is going to DPS and Heal. Else they have great room for improvement. All the skills Scholar use to DPS are from Arcanist.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

It's kind of dumb that they put so much effort into Class lore then toss it out of the window after Lv 30 - e.g. ROG.

Maybe you don't care about the lore but there are people that do.

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I guess you missed the part connecting the very similar fighting styles of a Rogue (Thancred) and a Ninja (Yugiri).

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

There is a certain cognitive dissonance when talking about "redundancy" given the current state of the Class/Job system. (Not to mention that Archer -> Bard is a tad weird ... What doesn't shooting arrows have to do with playing music?)

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I just had to respond to this...

One of the Sangam literature works, the Kallaadam, contains a story as to how the first yaaḻ harp was created from a bow.

Allen a dale was a wondering Minstrel (depicted as playing a Harp) who in Robin Hood legend became part of Hood's Merry Men. He is cited as inspiration for D&D Bards, and D&D inspired the original Final Fantasy.

Also in the Hobbit, the character named Bard is an Archer. Mythril is from Tolkien Mythology as well.

So yeah...I care about lore too, and there exists plenty of inspirational lore to support Bards to be Archers.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

I just had to respond to this...
One of the Sangam literature works, the Kallaadam, contains a story as to how the first yaaḻ harp was created from a bow.
Allen a dale was a wondering Minstrel (depicted as playing a Harp) who in Robin Hood legend became part of Hood's Merry Men. He is cited as inspiration for D&D Bards, and D&D inspired the original Final Fantasy.
Also in the Hobbit, the character named Bard is an Archer. Mythril is from Tolkien Mythology as well.
So yeah...I care about lore too, and there exists plenty of inspirational lore to support Bards to be Archers.

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The problem I have with the bard and archer thing (and by the same extent, gladiator and paladin) is that the job aspect of it seems incredibly unrepresented, or has very little presence.

Archers are already capable of singing and using a harp (Swiftsong) before ever advancing to a bard. It doesn't help that the 3 songs you gain from bard use the same animation for the cast... or the fact you get rain of death as a job ability when it really seems more like an archer ability. This ultimately dips into redundancy. We're dipping into the territory that we're just bards by name...heck we can't even use the Artemis Bow as both a weapon and the harp for songs (which imo, would be really nice and justify the pre 2.4 relic quest grind a bit more).

As for paladin...the two oaths match what the what the job does; Warrior has defiance to defy and tame their inner beast, represented by wrath stacks and their following abilities). Paladins swear an oath (being an elite guard of the sultana) to hit things with their sword or actually use their shield to protect. But its two abilities (and to this date I'm still wondering why shield oats is level 40 considering GLD's innate mediocre aggro generation) that take out of the job skill pool, and neither do the rest of their abilities really cover the whole paladin thing imo well too.

...that and I personally dislike the paladin questline compared to the other jobs. Lack of feels being tugged and more facepalm where I'd usually see in slyph quests.

But that's just me nit picking on the aesthetics of how the jobs are presented. I personally prefer a functioning gameplay (which they do have) above all else, and aesthetics second. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't want these changes or have ranger/some other physical ranged dps class...

The Hybrid Jobs aren't well represented. Summoner is Arcanist 20 I don't even know why SE calls it a Summoner when it's clearly an Arcanist with a different set of Pets. Bard is Archer 2.0 because the main abilities for the Archer into the Bard. Paladin is a Gladiator 2.0 because they don't have a White Mage skills and a dps stance. The issue is SE over balanced the classes/jobs to the point of them being bland and underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Hybrid Jobs aren't well represented. Summoner is Arcanist 20 I don't even know why SE calls it a Summoner when it's clearly an Arcanist with a different set of Pets. Bard is Archer 2.0 because the main abilities for the Archer into the Bard. Paladin is a Gladiator 2.0 because they don't have a White Mage skills and a dps stance. The issue is SE over balanced the classes/jobs to the point of them being bland and underwhelming.

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Because it summons the pet...but I'm not sure you know what it is you're even talking about any more. I mean seriously Paladin can and often does use Stoneskin, a White Mage skill, and yeah...just wow...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Extending Classes into full Jobs won't really need much reconning.

Existing Jobs will just branch off as they do now. They just need to add extra Job quests for the Class-now-Jobs. (Again, they don't have to do all of them.)

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This is what you want

http://i.imgur.com/0aDbOjD.png

The chart is a little weird though because SMN and ACN should be a single entity until 50+.

However, I'm sure many others would prefer that SMN just get Carbuncle and that time spent making ACN into a job was better spent into making a new class that uses pets in a different way (Beastmaster, Puppetmaster).

edit: I'll fix it afterwards

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This is what you want

http://i.imgur.com/0aDbOjD.png

The chart is a little weird though because SMN and ACN should be a single entity until 50+.

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Well, SMN and ACN should split at 30 too.

They don't have to do it for every class (ideally they should but ...), just those they can come up with ideas for - ACN was suppose to be a Class involving "patterns"; I posted some suggestions in #41 that keeps with current lore.

"Lore behind the Job" is a big part of the reason I started this thread - I find the sudden "change over" quite abrupt; some of us want to continue with the original Class (especially so for ACN since you lose spells when switching to Job). Mechanics was an afterthought that I would leave to SE to figure out - although my ACN suggestion IMHO could be interesting if done well.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

However, I'm sure many others would prefer that SMN just get Carbuncle and that time spent making ACN into a job was better spent into making a new class that uses pets in a different way (Beastmaster, Puppetmaster).

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I would settle for adding of Carbuncles to SMN though - at least I can look the part. :p

PS:

Why the heck did they remove the Carbuncles in the first place?! They could have just upgraded their stats and they would be fine in end-game. (Ya, "redundancy". But it never hurts to have choices right?)

Hmmm, they could give Emerald Carby a "Amplify" ground AoE in place of "Contagion" that increase DoT damage while enemies are in it if they want to differentiate it a bit - also for heaven sakes, remove the cast time from Downburst.

I'm personally happy with BLM. I don't think THM would make a great Job. Conjurers too - I don't see them needing their own job.

As for SMN/Arcanists, I do believe that SMN should obtain Carbuncle, but after that, nothing really.

What if they put the first job quest to level 15? Doing this jobs would be more like a specialization of the classes and could add a new skill sets or traits depending on the soul crystal you have equipped. More or less WoW or other games spec system

I've actually been messing around with classes, now that I'm out of the Job only 90s gear. It seems like the better our gear gets, the less that measly amount of points from the Soulstone even matters.

Conjurer especially, is an interesting beast. In current gear, I lose about 75 HP per Cure. I also lose the healing CDs, Regen, and Holy. What I gain in exchange doesn't actually help my healing that much. Inner Release, and that's about it. And Mantra, but that's a nerfed Divine Seal, really. I even lose the OMG AOE that is Holy spam.

HOWEVER. When it comes to single target burst phases, the CNJ blows WHM away. Having BFB, RS and IR allows me to hit a lot harder than the WHM can. On average, my WHM crits for 700 on a Stone II. And that's all I will ever crit for, as I have no DPS CDs to do anything but 700. CNJ can crit for 1100+, and even non crits are still significantly higher under CDs. Even without CDs up, it's still a minimal damage loss, maybe 50 or so.

The rest of the classes have similar outcomes. Loss of role specific abilities, and a slight nerf to overall performance for their role, but increased out-of-role performance.

Frankly, if we got rid of the stat boost on the Soulstone, or merged that boost into the actual class, there might be a shift to using classes as well. Replacing your few Job skills with 5 more crossclass CDs might actually be a gain in performance for some classes.

Or, like others have already stated, if we got class specific abilities like Jobs get theirs. Instead of halting at 30 to become the job, why not continue out the class line until 50 as well?

Of course there is a large counterargument for this. This is Final Fantasy, after all. Since FFI, we have always started off as a lower class, and eventually earned our higher Job. White Mage to White Wizard, for instance. So this is actually a natural progression. Allowing us to still have access to the initial class however, is a curiosity.

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Originally Posted by Noelzzz

What if they put the first job quest to level 15? Doing this jobs would be more like a specialization of the classes and could add a new skill sets or traits depending on the soul crystal you have equipped. More or less WoW or other games spec system

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How would cross-class work then? Would every skill after 15 be a job skill, or would skills continue to be split between class and job? Provoke, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke, Blood for Blood, Stoneskin, Eye for an Eye, and Mantra are after level 15.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

How would cross-class work then? Would every skill after 15 be a job skill, or would skills continue to be split between class and job? Provoke, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke, Blood for Blood, Stoneskin, Eye for an Eye, and Mantra are after level 15.

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Yes jobs skill instead of class and you will have different traits too. Doing this jobs that split from the same class will have different skill set and traits keeping the skills you learn in the first 15 levels the same.
Isala, i totally agree with you, if they do not rework this class job system at least some class deserve to be played in end game

Personally I loved the IDEA of Classes being versatile, it felt as if you could be unique and have your own build. Everyone had a different idea of what the best cross class abilities to take was, and everyone seemed to make their set up work.

Job's seemed to be the go to thing for end game content and party based content. As of right now however, it really feel's like classes are only still around because it would be too sloppy to do away with them altogether.

I'd love to see Classes have some sort of functional use again, because I love the IDEA of being a Rogue, or an Arcanist, or a Pugulist.

Personally, with Dark Knight being released as a stand alone, I feel as if they are trying seperate themselves from the Class system, or at least trying it out to see how players will take it.

The Class/job system is a great idea HOWEVER it was implemented counter-productively to it's goals. A "Class" should be "What you are" and a "Job" should be "How I play". Jobs should not be required, or even desired, outside of dungeons/raids/trails/etc. A Job should not be an evolution of the class as much as it should be a learned set of skills aimed toward increasing one's efficiency in a set role. If a class was made to be a stand alone entity designed around doing Quests, Story, Leves, etc. while solo (much how GW2 has classes designed) then you can have jobs for each class that branch off into niches such as Tank, DPS, Support, Healer that each sacrifice the balanced state of the class to focus on an extreme. By doing this each "class" can now fulfill each role (or "job") in a different manor suited to that class' style. But none of this matters because it would require a complete overhaul of existing class mechanics/skills and no developer would ever be willing to do that.

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Originally Posted by Noelzzz

Yes jobs skill instead of class and you will have different traits too. Doing this jobs that split from the same class will have different skill set and traits keeping the skills you learn in the first 15 levels the same.

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So how would skills which are basically required: Provoke, Invigorate, and Swiftcast (which I forgot to mention before) work? All are needed to help other jobs perform optimally. Would it make sense to have certain skills open to other jobs, even if they are specialized job skills now under a system were every post level 15 skill is a job skill.

The current system deals with this issue by having some skills be class skills, and other be more specialized job skills. If certain skills are needed by each job, and a job took over at level 15, and all skill thus forth were job skills, then certain skill are going to have to be basically renames with the same function. That limits a jobs defining skills, and defeats the purpose.

SE should've had Jobs unlocked at level 10 so their more specialized like WoW or any other MMO

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Originally Posted by Isala

Frankly, if we got rid of the stat boost on the Soulstone
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Replacing your few Job skills with 5 more crossclass CDs might actually be a gain in performance for some classes.

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IMHO many Jobs are pretty much "carried" by the stat boost and the lack of the stat boost is what makes many/all Classes "non-viable".

I think SE wants to move away from cross-Class skills. The more choices in cross-class skills, the more variation in player "builds", the harder it is to balance. The fact that cross-Class skills are shared by many Classes/Jobs, makes any kind of alteration to them difficult, as changing one cross-Class skill will impact multiple Classes/Jobs, further increasing the difficulty of balancing.

It depends on how hard up SE is for Class/Job balance. It's a fine line to walk. When balance becomes an all consuming pursuit (at the expense of everything else), like in WoW, it can be detrimental to the game as a whole.

So, just asking this now before I accidentally ruin a lot of progress...
When you "evolve" your class, for example from Rogue to the job Ninja, I know you can still use your rogue skills, but if you evolve from level 30, do you still learn new rogue skills or will you forever live with only learning ninja skills and missing a lot of good abilities?

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Originally Posted by OnePipOrchestra

So, just asking this now before I accidentally ruin a lot of progress...
When you "evolve" your class, for example from Rogue to the job Ninja, I know you can still use your rogue skills, but if you evolve from level 30, do you still learn new rogue skills or will you forever live with only learning ninja skills and missing a lot of good abilities?

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You learn new Rogue skills up to level 50. In addition to that you do quests for Ninja skills. Even when you're set as Ninja you still level the base Rogue class underneath. The game will say "You earn 2400 Rogue experience points" or something like that.