Can we have challenging and rewarding 4 man content, please?

I support this! We need more variety!

I do like this idea. For some of us who work a lot, it's difficult to coordinate times with 7 other people to form a raid group, so for me I feel like im getting the short end of the stick when it comes to end game content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Are you serious?

Dungeons dropping ilvl125 weapons when T9 drops ilvl115?

I don't even

---

Yeah, the developers must be insane, releasing those "Allagan Tomestones of Poetry" that yield i120 body gear that is better than the High Allagan body pieces that drop in T6-T9.

Err, wait. That's just content deprecation.

simply drop a harsh ilvl limiter and timer (say ilvl60 and 25 mins for snowcloak) and it will be challenging enough

I just posted a similar thread, what do you think? Regarding Medium-Difficulty Content Support: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...iculty-Support

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Are you serious?

Dungeons dropping ilvl125 weapons when T9 drops ilvl115?

I don't even

---

Poetics gear and Shiva EX accessories (as well as the Nexus) says hi. Also, did you miss the part where I said 5% chance? Considering how unlucky some people were with Atma, chances are players would never see the i125 weapon, OR i115 weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Yeah, the developers must be insane, releasing those "Allagan Tomestones of Poetry" that yield i120 body gear that is better than the High Allagan body pieces that drop in T6-T9.

Err, wait. That's just content deprecation.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Poetics gear and Shiva EX accessories (as well as the Nexus) says hi. Also, did you miss the part where I said 5% chance? Considering how unlucky some people were with Atma, chances are players would never see the i125 weapon, OR i115 weapon.

---

How does "armor" relate to "weapons"?

HA weapon is still BiS for various jobs, even better than the 120 Poetics weapon (and to make it 130 you need to go into FCoB, so that's fine).

And the percentage does not matter. There WOULD be people farming dungeons day and night for that 5% chance, like when people had Nexus weapon the day after it was introduced.

Simply put, it would make T9 completely pointless considering its difficulty. I seriously don't understand in what ways this would be a good thing.

Dungeon difficulty is fine. Dungeons are casual pve content. Remove that and what do you want 90% of the player base to do? Uninstall I guess...

While these new dungeons or most of the dungeons have fun moments to them and also are just beautiful. They're all mostly making sure that you follow the mechanics, dodging the right stuff or doing DPS checks. What might make this stuff more fun is maybe adding a bit of environmental RNG to this, mix it up with a mob or two that have some nasty abilities that make me use my Divine Seal and other abilities not because I want to but because it might be needed.

Though the thread talks about adding more challenging 4 man content maybe we can boost the current a bit more. A harder 4 man primal does sound nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaykos

Dungeon difficulty is fine. Dungeons are casual pve content. Remove that and what do you want 90% of the player base to do? Uninstall I guess...

---

Who said anything about removing casual dungeon content?

This thread is about ADDING 4-man raid-difficulty content. I'm all for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Who said anything about removing casual dungeon content?

This thread is about ADDING 4-man raid-difficulty content. I'm all for it.

---

Exactly. Thank you for clarifying that.

The casual dungeons are all nice and fine, and this thread is in no way asking to remove any of them. Not ALL of the new dungeons should be harder and more rewarding, but SOME should be, and they should get their own roulette, separate from the easier dungeons.

If anything I think SE needs to add 8 man dungeons back in like Cutters and AV from 1.23 and return some sort of middle ground between 4 man content and coil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kule

If anything I think SE needs to add 8 man dungeons back in like Cutters and AV from 1.23 and return some sort of middle ground between 4 man content and coil.

---

The very concept of 8-man is a large part of the problem. It is DIFFICULT to put together a lasting, competent team of eight members, and for many people THAT is the largest bar in progressing through endgame.

Putting together a competent team of four members is, well, half as difficult.

More 8-man dungeon runs wouldn't be a bad thing, but it doesn't solve the problem this thread is trying to address: difficult content tailored to a smaller group.

Both puggable 8 player dungeons as well as more challenging 4 player content would be very welcomed by me, personally. Just more things actually worth doing that don't require 8 coordinated players.

What they can do is, to add a "harder version" of existing dungeons, you can only do these via Party Finder, no Duty Finder whatsoever. The way you do it is by spending some Grand Company seals for key items, they can make it cost 15k GC Seals. Harder Version should yields more crafting materials that are sought after, plus level appropriate gears (110 gears would be good) and very rare off chance of 120 gears. Obviously it should give you around 60 soldiery tomes and 45 poetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

What they can do is, to add a "harder version" of existing dungeons, you can only do these via Party Finder, no Duty Finder whatsoever. The way you do it is by spending some Grand Company seals for key items, they can make it cost 15k GC Seals. Harder Version should yields more crafting materials that are sought after, plus level appropriate gears (110 gears would be good) and very rare off chance of 120 gears. Obviously it should give you around 60 soldiery tomes and 45 poetic.

---

Uhm, why exactly do you want to slap a GC fee on these dungeons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

Uhm, why exactly do you want to slap a GC fee on these dungeons?

---

Fear that the GCs are irrelevant as far as Gameplay goes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

What they can do is, to add a "harder version" of existing dungeons, you can only do these via Party Finder, no Duty Finder whatsoever. The way you do it is by spending some Grand Company seals for key items, they can make it cost 15k GC Seals. Harder Version should yields more crafting materials that are sought after, plus level appropriate gears (110 gears would be good) and very rare off chance of 120 gears. Obviously it should give you around 60 soldiery tomes and 45 poetic.

---

The idea is to have content that is easy to get into, but challenging to complete. Putting it in duty finder is perfectly fine, as long as the harder dungeons have their own roulette, separate from the current "hard"modes - People should be aware that they're signing up for something difficult they might not be able to complete with the group they get, but they shouldn't be locked out of attempting it. Having to spend seals for entry goes pretty much directly against the idea of making it easily accessible.

I am all about "accessible" content, BUT putting this "harder" mode dungeon on duty finder is a surefire way you will get 50/50 chance of running into trolls, new players, bad players, too dense to learn players, etc... "People should be aware" reason is not enough when 80% of the players simply DO NOT read, cannot read, refuse to read, and have very little skill in comprehension. They will sign up for anything that is new, or if it gives you more rewards. Then half your time will be spent in "explaining the mechanic" to your group, wiping over and over, dealing with rage quitter, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I am all about "accessible" content, BUT putting this "harder" mode dungeon on duty finder is a surefire way you will get 50/50 chance of running into trolls, new players, bad players, too dense to learn players, etc... "People should be aware" reason is not enough when 80% of the players simply DO NOT read, cannot read, refuse to read, and have very little skill in comprehension. They will sign up for anything that is new, or if it gives you more rewards. Then half your time will be spent in "explaining the mechanic" to your group, wiping over and over, dealing with rage quitter, etc.

---

But where exactly is the problem in that? Honestly, I'd rather have the option to get a DF group than being forced to make my own. For people who'd rather avoid DF, they wouldn't have to use it at all and could stick to PF only. They could put a little confirmation window on the hardest dungeon roulette, pointing out that you're about to sign up for difficult content for which pre-made groups are recommended, so nobody ends up in there without knowing the risks.

How about this? For two months, the 'Savage' dungeons will only be doable by setting up a Party Finder (or asking FC/LS members). After that time has gone by, they can then be put up in the DF. The requirement for doing the dungeons themselves can also be a little restrictive. Naturally, you need to beat all of the Normal and "Hard" mode dungeons. The minimal ilvl though...

• i100 - Wanderer's Palace, Haukke Manor, Brayflox Longstop, Hullbreaker Isle, Snowcloak - these will not drop i115 gear or i125 weapons, but will be the dungeons to do if you want the dye-able armour (Snowcloak will drop the items needed to dye AF gear)

• i105 - Amdapor Keep, Copperbell Mines, Halatali, Tam-Tara Deepcroft, Sunken Temple of Qarn - These will drop the i115 armour.

• i110 - Pharos Sirius, Lost City of Amdapor, Stone Vigil, Sastasha - These will rarely drop i125 weapons (and if it'll make them happy, completing the dungeon locks the player from getting a chance of getting the weapon until next week. Example: beat Sirius, not get weapon, locked out from getting it from that particular dungeon. So you now have three-four more chances). Naturally, the lockout will be removed once The World of Darkness (CT3) drops Final Coils version of 'Sands'.

-For those who feel i110 is too high... well, this is something for people who do Coil (or Extreme Primals). I stopped playing the game for a couple of months with my BLM sitting at around i106. It took me four days to make my BLM hit i111... and I didn't even use Hunts :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

How about this? For two months, the 'Savage' dungeons will only be doable by setting up a Party Finder (or asking FC/LS members). After that time has gone by, they can then be put up in the DF.

---

I don't mind ilvl restrictions, but I really think that new content should be put on the DF right away. What's the point of disallowing people from trying it in the DF early on?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

I don't mind ilvl restrictions, but I really think that new content should be put on the DF right away. What's the point of disallowing people from trying it in the DF early on?

---

Making sure noobs can't wipe the raid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Making sure noobs can't wipe the raid?

---

The fact that it's in the DF doesn't prevent people from making their own premades/statics/PF groups, what goes on in the DF has no influence on people who'd rather form full groups of people they already know whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

The fact that it's in the DF doesn't prevent people from making their own premades/statics/PF groups, what goes on in the DF has no influence on people who'd rather form full groups of people they already know whatsoever.

---

I know. I was just taking a guess at what Nestama was thinking when he posted that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

Uhm, why exactly do you want to slap a GC fee on these dungeons?

---

As a guess, to discourage folks from bailing as soon as it's apparent that the group isn't gonna one-shot the thing, and might need a few tries to get the job done.

All too often in this game, I've seen groups in Duty Finder for hard stuff like Titan Ex or Coil T5 where the group shows real promise; they don't get the fight right away, but improve with each wipe, only to fall apart when someone (usually a tank or healer) decides after twenty minutes that things aren't going fast enough for their liking and drop out.

By requiring an entry fee that depends on real work (say, 30k Grand Company seals - even if you have seal grinding down to a science, this is going to take you a while), players have more incentive to stick with a sub-par group rather than keep spamming Duty Finder until they luck into a group that meets their standards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

By requiring an entry fee that depends on real work (say, 30k Grand Company seals - even if you have seal grinding down to a science, this is going to take you a while), players have more incentive to stick with a sub-par group rather than keep spamming Duty Finder until they luck into a group that meets their standards.

---

Incentive doesn't mean accidents or emergencies won't happen. If a person loses their internet connection for an extended amount of time or somebody really has to leave, the rest of the group get screwed out of their seals -- and 30k is a ridiculous amount to even suggest, honestly. Who wants to farm boring fates for hours or days for one shot at a dungeon?
As I said, the suggestion I am trying to make in this thread is challenging content - the challenge being BEATING said content, not ACCESSING it. Let people DF it at will, most DF groups probably won't work out, but that's okay, at the very least people will be able to use it to get some experience and practice, until they either get lucky with a good set of 3 other players or find themselves a premade group of similiarly experienced ones. They can also use DF with a friend or two to improve their odds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Stuff

---

That is the stupidest idea I have ever read. Not only are you now forcing people to grind for something on top of things they already need to grind for, you're making people grind for a currency JUST to be able to play in a raid/dungeon which already has entry "fees" in the form of character levels and gear levels. Your whole concept of entry fees destroys what duty finder stands for in the first place; no one would be able to clear anything if people can't or refuse to pay a "fee" just to play instanced content. If you really wanted to force people to "adapt or pay the price", then we should get rid of DF entirely and force everyone to use the PF.

Putting "entrance fee" for something that is harder to clear works very well in FFXI to deter potential "trolls". You have the normal mode version to practice for free over and over till your eyes bleed and master the basic mechanics. Making sure that it is party finder only and not cross servers also helps to promote camaraderie between people in your servers. Now everyone will know if you are the "trolls" who keeps bailing after a few wipes. It is the same idea why Binding Coil is not on Duty Finder right off the gate. Difficult content requires teamwork, or at least like minded people who are committed to put the time and effort. Everyone else can do the normal easy mode that are free to access via Duty Finder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Putting "entrance fee" for something that is harder to clear works very well in FFXI to deter potential "trolls". You have the normal mode version to practice for free over and over till your eyes bleed and master the basic mechanics. Making sure that it is party finder only and not cross servers also helps to promote camaraderie between people in your servers. Now everyone will know if you are the "trolls" who keeps bailing after a few wipes. It is the same idea why Binding Coil is not on Duty Finder right off the gate. Difficult content requires teamwork, or at least like minded people who are committed to put the time and effort. Everyone else can do the normal easy mode that are free to access via Duty Finder.

---

This isn't FFXI and I hope to god it never becomes it. This is just a bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Putting "entrance fee" for something that is harder to clear works very well in FFXI to deter potential "trolls".

---

Since they implemented name change, any mechanic that let's people "know" who the trolls are is right out the window anyways, so let's just let people actually do content instead of artificially locking them out of it. There's no need for an easier version, let people throw themselves at the normal version on DF to get practice or the occasional lucky clear if they end up with a good group, there is no reason to disallow that.

Say what you like about FFXI, once you entered that instance that you spent hours of grinding to get a key for, everyone in that instance was damn well going to try to complete it, come hell or high water. That kind of dedication is very hard to find in FFXIV, and not just in Duty Finder. The next time you get frustrated because a member drops out of a fight prematurely - well, this is an alternative.

I actually find it kind of hilarious, the immediate and vehement resistance my post made. I wasn't even suggesting it be done, just that it was one possible interpretation of what Luvbunny had written. Given the treatment SE has given crafting, gathering, and the relic weapons, though, I would not be at all surprised to see instances and popped NMs that require rare or grindy trigger items appear in the not-too-distant future.

As a FFXI vet, the easy access in this game to, well, everything, was a breath of fresh air. Well, it seems that the vacation is ending. That said, I enjoyed FFXI, and if FFXIV slips back into the hardcore grind, it won't bother me much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Say what you like about FFXI, once you entered that instance that you spent hours of grinding to get a key for, everyone in that instance was damn well going to try to complete it, come hell or high water. That kind of dedication is very hard to find in FFXIV, and not just in Duty Finder. The next time you get frustrated because a member drops out of a fight prematurely - well, this is an alternative.

---

Most people don't enjoy being "forced" to cooperate with each other - some personalities don't mix well. There are times when I was happy that someone decided they're too good for the rest of the group and left, only to be replaced by the Duty Finder seconds (sometimes a few minutes) later, and I'm sure the leaving person was happy enough too.

Anyway, another thing I'd like to see would be dungeons that deviate from the default group composition - some that require 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS would probably be a boon for queue times, for example. Honestly, any kind of new, challenging and rewarding content that's for smaller groups than coil I'd be very happy about.