Devs: A Monk front-facing combo. (Positional Requirement)

Before:
BS > TS > SP (Back + Flank combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (Back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (Flank)


After:
BS > TS > SP (Back + Flank combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (Back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (Flank)

BS > TS > SP (Frontal combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit 50% chance if from front
Truestrike 170 Potency (Front)
Snap Punch 160 Potency (Front)


It's not game breaking, and not hard to implement. Incentive to attack from behind remains as the priority, but gives you an option for the front.

A front combo would mean monks will need tank accuracy to not miss.
I don't think that will be very well received.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

A front combo would mean monks will need tank accuracy to not miss.
I don't think that will be very well received.

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Nah their point is that monks should suffer in late game content that, and i emphasize, they are not INTERESTED IN at all. We should all risking their lifes attacking from the front to satisfy their own burning desire to use it in non-end game content.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Your opinions are mainly towards coil, I played up to T4 last year and my interest in coil is not there, so I don't even bother playing it unless someone needs help and I happen to be able to help.


I'm not a coil player. You don't have an off tank in all cases.

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Qantum of selfishness?

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Before:
BS > TS > SP (Back combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (back)


After:
BS > TS > SP (Back combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (back)

BS > TS > SP (Front combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit 50% chance if from front
Truestrike 170 Potency (front)
Snap Punch 160 Potency (front)

It's not game breaking, and not hard to implement. Incentive to attack from behind remains as the priority, but gives you an option for the front.

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Sorry but this would hurt the Monk community, not help. The second a MNK dies from Mountain buster everyone is going to ask why they were in front instead of behind.

i will be blunt, i don't think monk need a front combo... but one combo without positional recquirement.
i'm almost amazed as no one did notice that the monk feel more like a rogue and the actual rogue feel like a monk.

the monk don't need to have position he will simply crush the enemy with him power, he don't look for tactics or stuff like this. so far at my eyes, the monk is not a monk, but more a true assassin or rogue class that will fight the enemy from side and back... when the monk must be focus on more complexe combo without relaying on the position. but well...

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Sorry but this would hurt the Monk community, not help. The second a MNK dies from Mountain buster everyone is going to ask why they were in front instead of behind.

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Did you even look at the values? Having a weaker combo that you can perform from the front doesn't mean everyone will automatically attack from the front.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i will be blunt, i don't think monk need a front combo... but one combo without positional recquirement.
i'm almost amazed as no one did notice that the monk feel more like a rogue and the actual rogue feel like a monk.

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I wouldn't mind that instead of a front combo, but how would you go about doing this?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i will be blunt, i don't think monk need a front combo... but one combo without positional recquirement.
i'm almost amazed as no one did notice that the monk feel more like a rogue and the actual rogue feel like a monk.

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Before the positional requirements were installed my first thought was "I am turning into a THIEF now??" "Why??" and this was over 3 years ago. A lot of people who play Monk over look this and just accept things for the way that they are and it's sad to see.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the monk don't need to have position he will simply crush the enemy with him power, he don't look for tactics or stuff like this. so far at my eyes, the monk is not a monk, but more a true assassin or rogue class that will fight the enemy from side and back... when the monk must be focus on more complexe combo without relaying on the position. but well...

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EXACTLY how I think about it. Monks should be a POWERFUL force from ALL angles!

I don't remember any other game where I could fight with my fists; where my strength lies ONLY from attacking the back and sides of a mob, that's ridiculous to me. In FFXI thief's were much weaker then Monks so they had to use trick attack's and sneak attack's from the back or behind a party member for DEEP damage bursts, so it made perfect sense since they were weaker per blow. And it wasn't a big deal either because it was just 2 skills, and hell I actually thought THAT was fun, but for Monks, no. Monks should not play like thief's.

I don't mind complexity either, they could make even more complicated combos and I would like that. But being bound to heavily rely on said positions is what I don't find fun at all because it doesn't feel like I'm playing as a Monk, but as a Rogue.

Well... martial arts (at least the Kung fu I took) there are optimal places to land a strike on a target to do damage. It changes based on the kind of attack. How they translate that into the game is positional requirements.

Example, razor kick (with the side of the foot) not really something effective on thigh, targets are side/back of the knee and soft tissue.

Throws, holds, and sparring was most effective when getting around someone's defense, approaching from the front was far from optimal because you have lots more defense that way

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Originally Posted by Spartan117

Qantum of selfishness?

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As a coil elitist, please educate me on what you mean when you insult me and how I prefer to play the game.

Here is the point:

If you give the MNK a decreased penalty for not being in position, you decrease the skill needed to be effective as the class. In addition, if you decrease said penalty, you are also making the class a more powerful class OVERALL.

If you are tanking mobs, YOU ARE MEANT TO GET KILLED. This is a cooperative game, MNK ABSOLUTELY should NOT get abilities that allow them to go outside of the scope of their archetype. If you were able to be viable as a tank, then the would need to make BLMs, SMNs, DRGs, and NINs all able to have the same viability. This would decrease the need for an actual tank. The frontal potencies are fine as they are.

This is the main point OP is ignoring in other's posts. It simply makes them too powerful, the reason you shouldn't get the ability to do more damage from the front is because it makes you too strong. That's like saying, "As a PLD, I feel like I should get a buff to my healing potency! What if my healer dies, how will I stay alive? This happens all the time!"

/thread

Post Script:

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I don't remember any other game where I could fight with my fists; where my strength lies ONLY from attacking the back and sides of a mob, that's ridiculous to me.

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I've played several where all melee classes had an increased chance to miss their attacks because they were attacking from the front.

Just so you know, you are coming off as hard-headed - accusing other people of not understanding your points while totally ignoring valid concerns with this proposed change.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

Well... martial arts (at least the Kung fu I took) there are optimal places to land a strike on a target to do damage. It changes based on the kind of attack. How they translate that into the game is positional requirements.

Example, razor kick (with the side of the foot) not really something effective on thigh, targets are side/back of the knee and soft tissue.

Throws, holds, and sparring was most effective when getting around someone's defense, approaching from the front was far from optimal because you have lots more defense that way

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I see your point and I even thought about that, but now explain to me why I have no good attacks from the front?

A martial artist should be able to adapt to ALL situations as fights are spontaneous. It's very weird that a so called Monk cannot attack with any kind of authority when facing a monster head on, do you not agree?

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I see your point and I even thought about that, but now explain to me why I have no good attacks from the front?

A martial artist should be able to adapt to ALL situations as fights are spontaneous. It's very weird that a so called Monk cannot attack with any kind of authority when facing a monster head on, do you not agree?

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That's the reson, it is not optimal because all the monster's attention is facing the monk. The monk can still hurt the monster, but it takes more time and effort and is more risky because the monster can see and defend against every incoming blow. Damage is not negated, just certainly much harder to deal.

Only in anime is there an undefendable attack from the front of a target

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I see your point and I even thought about that, but now explain to me why I have no good attacks from the front?

A martial artist should be able to adapt to ALL situations as fights are spontaneous. It's very weird that a so called Monk cannot attack with any kind of authority when facing a monster head on, do you not agree?

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1 - You are thinking a bit too much about lore and not enough about game balance. It would be to have everything check out 100% from a lore/practical application, but it just can't.

2 - It would be weird if a MNK couldn't be effective from in front of a mob, but I have killed numerous opponents from the front with my MNK. It WOULD be weird if I weren't MORE effective from the flank or rear. MNKs are plenty potent from the front, but if you use your positionals they are absolutely deadly.

Think about attacking someone in real life from in front of them: They can see you, they can see your movements, they can move their body slightly or dramatically to decrease the pain they feel when you hit them with your fists. Now think about attacking someone from behind: They have no way to predict where you will strike, when you will strike, how you will strike, so it will definitely be more effective, especially if you are a master of your craft.

Now, if I had a lance or some knives, I'm less affected by positional because I have an edged weapon with more reach.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Here is the point:

If you give the MNK a decreased penalty for not being in position, you decrease the skill needed to be effective as the class. In addition, if you decrease said penalty, you are also making the class a more powerful class OVERALL.

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I know there would be some derps out there that will think "I can attack from the front, let me do dis all D time!" I'm pretty sure there are Monks out there right now that don't combo right, but that's on them. It would be on you to be smart enough to know that your stronger combo is NOT in front of the mob. I honestly don't see how the class would be overpowered because of a weaker frontal combo.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

If you are tanking mobs, YOU ARE MEANT TO GET KILLED. This is a cooperative game, MNK ABSOLUTELY should NOT get abilities that allow them to go outside of the scope of their archetype. If you were able to be viable as a tank, then the would need to make BLMs, SMNs, DRGs, and NINs all able to have the same viability. This would decrease the need for an actual tank. The frontal potencies are fine as they are.

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Monks and Dragoons should both have a frontal option, NIN's have this option:

Sneak Attack:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
500 when executed in front of target.
Can only be executed when under the effect of Hide, and shares a recast timer with Trick Attack.

But if you are in a party, your go to move would be Trick Attack because it has a 10% damage increase to the target making it much more desirable:

Trick Attack:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 240.
400 when executed from behind target.
Rear Bonus: Increases target's damage taken by 10% Duration: 10s
Can only be executed when under the effect of Hide, and shares a recast timer with Sneak Attack.

The weaker combo will not turn a Monk into a viable tank, just the same way Sneak Attack isn't turning NIN into a viable tank. It's only meant for special circumstances. it wouldn't be hurting the need for tanks, trust me.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

This is the main point OP is ignoring in other's posts. It simply makes them too powerful, the reason you shouldn't get the ability to do more damage from the front is because it makes you too strong. That's like saying, "As a PLD, I feel like I should get a buff to my healing potency! What if my healer dies, how will I stay alive? This happens all the time!"

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Explain how taking a combo that is already in the game and making it weaker but usable from the front making a Monk over powered?

You aren't buffing anything. You are taking a combo that is already there, and making it usable from the front; but with a penalty of being much weaker to discourage you from even wanting to use it.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I've played several where all melee classes had an increased chance to miss their attacks because they were attacking from the front.

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You're talking about accuracy. If we weren't bound by positionals, and all we needed was to boost accuracy I would say nothing.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I know there would be some derps out there that will think "I can attack from the front, let me do dis all D time!" I'm pretty sure there are Monks out there right now that don't combo right, but that's on them. It would be on you to be smart enough to know that your stronger combo is NOT in front of the mob. I honestly don't see how the class would be overpowered because of a weaker frontal combo.

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You are totally missing the point. This is so beyond relevant to the core of this discussion. It doesn't become over-powered it becomes more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Monks and Dragoons should both have a frontal option, NIN's have this option:
Sneak Attack:
Trick Attack:

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1 - X class should have this because Y class has this makes no sense. Because BLM get Flare should MNK get an AE move just as powerful? This holds absolutely no water as an argument.
2 - SA is the only skill in the game that gets a frontal bonus, because it is part of the ROG class about sneaking. Can a MNK sneak? No, so they can't do a sneaky attack that does extra potency from the from.
3 - You DO have a frontal option, you can do ALL MNK attacks from the front. ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL WORK.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

The weaker combo will not turn a Monk into a viable tank, just the same way Sneak Attack isn't turning NIN into a viable tank. It's only meant for special circumstances. it wouldn't be hurting the need for tanks, trust me.

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No. You don't get to tank in special circumstances. You don't get slightly reduced damage from the front in special circumstances, you get severely penalized. MNK is completely fine as it is with potency in the front. The only time they are in the front is if someone screwed up or you are soloing. If someone screwed up you pay the penalty for that. If you are solo you certainly don't need increased potency because all of the open world content is easy. SA is a ROG skill for the ROG playstyle, the fact that it exists has nothing to do with MNK skills.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Explain how taking a combo that is already in the game and making it weaker but usable from the front making a Monk over powered?

You aren't buffing anything. You are taking a combo that is already there, and making it usable from the front; but with a penalty of being much weaker to discourage you from even wanting to use it.

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You're suggestions will not "over power" the MNK but its completely unnecessary. IT IS ALREADY MADE WEAKER FROM THE FRONT. THIS EXISTS.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

You're talking about accuracy. If we weren't bound by positionals, and all we needed was to boost accuracy I would say nothing.

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You're assuming accuracy in this game works the exact same as accuracy in other games. In other games, 100% accuracy is impossible, so making you miss more is equivalent to decreasing your potency.


You're points of "just make it weaker from the front," are ALREADY IN THE GAME:

Bootshine - Front: 150 | Rear: Auto-Crit
Twin Snakes - Front: 100 | Flank: 140
Snap Punch - Front: 140 | Flank: 180
Dragon Kick - Front: 100 | Flank: 150
True Stike - Front: 150 | Rear: 190
Demolish - Front: 30 | Rear: 70



/head explode

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

1 - X class should have this because Y class has this makes no sense. Because BLM get Flare should MNK get an AE move just as powerful? This holds absolutely no water as an argument.

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Really guy?

Monks should be able to attack with strength from every angle period. It has nothing to do with x class having xy. Sneak Attack is an example of a melee dps having a way to attack, with strength from the front.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

2 - SA is the only skill in the game that gets a frontal bonus, because it is part of the ROG class about sneaking. Can a MNK sneak? No, so they can't do a sneaky attack that does extra potency from the from.

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Exactly my point, Monks aren't Rogue's they shouldn't be heavily forced to attack only from the back or the side like a Rogue.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

You're suggestions will not "over power" the MNK but its completely unnecessary. IT IS ALREADY MADE WEAKER FROM THE FRONT. THIS EXISTS.

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"It simply makes them too powerful" "It makes you too strong"
So now it's not too powerful, it's just unnecessary, make up your mind.

The normal potency is too weak to not have a combo that you can use from the front. You only get the 1 minute cd steel peak to hold the target for a second to pull off 1 part of a combo, so that isn't reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Really guy?

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I'm not your guy, pal.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Monks should be able to attack with strength from every angle period. It has nothing to do with x class having this, Sneak Attack is an example of a melee dps having a way to attack with strength from the front.

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Why should MNKs be able to attack with strength from every angle period? Because you said so? OK, I think they shouldn't be able to do that. It seems we have hit an impasse.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Exactly my point, Monks aren't Rogue's they shouldn't be heavily forced to attack only from the back or the side like a Rogue.

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You are obviously basing your definition for what a job should do oustide of the context of FFXIV. This is FFXIV, the jobs will function as they are inside of this game, not as they are in any other game.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

"It simply makes them too powerful" "It makes you too strong"
So now it's not too powerful, it's just unnecessary, make up your mind.

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Over-powered and "Makes them too powerful" are not the same thing, in my vernacular. I can definitely see how that is confusing and I'll apologize for that confusion. Over-powered, to me, means game-breakingly strong. I was trying to communicate that it would make MNKs stronger in situations where they could be doing things outside their defined role, but it would not increase their power IN their assigned role of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

The normal potency is too weak to not have a combo that you can use from the front. You only get the 1 minute cd steel peak to hold the target for a second to pull off 1 part of a combo, so that isn't reasonable.

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You. Don't. Get. To. Hold. Mobs.

MNKs are the highest single target DPS in the game, that's what you get. And Mantra. You are asking for too much from a single job, and you are framing it in what your idea of MNK should be. You are playing in SE's world, not yours.

Also - way to not address

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Over-powered and "Makes them too powerful" are not the same thing, in my vernacular. I can definitely see how that is confusing and I'll apologize for that confusion. Over-powered, to me, means game-breakingly strong. I was trying to communicate that it would make MNKs stronger in situations where they could be doing things outside their defined role, but it would not increase their power IN their assigned role of DPS.

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When you play Monk for a majority of the content, you can see how often you get into a situation where a frontal combo would ease frustration.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

MNKs are the highest single target DPS in the game, that's what you get. And Mantra. You are asking for too much from a single job, and you are framing it in what your idea of MNK should be. You are playing in SE's world, not yours.

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I disagree. I am not asking for much, and I am framing my idea towards how SE has created their Monk. If I were to frame it in my way, my Monk would be very different from what you see in this game.

Hi everyone. I'm a MNk since first day (My main of course) and i love that class pretty much. Even if u are fighting a mob on field and want to do most damage possible u can try using lock target and u can use all flanks attacks if u are fast enough to go to flank before mob turn around (with lock target u are pretty fast to change from front to flank and from flank to back). I try flanking every mob i found. The only time i had a hard time and sometimes died it was when i had to do a Alexandrite map by myself, but in the end i got used to that too. I'm a PS user so i need to use lock target all the time in dungeons to not lose any auto atack when i change positions (for instance fighting Avatar, lock target all the time to my max damage possible). U dont need a front attack, we MNKs are fast enough to go to flank and use a attack (with lock target) before mob turns and shoulder whenever u need to finish your combo. I love this class a lot ^^ , hope this info helps.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I disagree. I am not asking for much, and I am framing my idea towards how SE has created their Monk...

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I don't like the realism argument anyways despite me using it. Here is the best argument (in my view) against mnks having a more powerful frontal combo - Balance
Mnks have decent armor, highest ST dps with no movement inhibition (animation lock) at the cost of needing lots of movement and some 40% dmg reduction without proper execution of that movement and a windup. You want to lessen that penalty to 10%. Looking at Turn 9 Dps numbers posted on the forums, that means mnk can deal comparable dmg to drg without any positioning (going from potential >500, to 470. i'm betting that merged numbers though). That's not good balancing

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

When you play Monk for a majority of the content, you can see how often you get into a situation where a frontal combo would ease frustration.

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I have mained MNK since 2.1, done Coil 1-9 on it, every single dungeon in the game on a MNK, pretty much all content imaginable on a MNK. It has not once frustrated me in any way.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

I disagree. I am not asking for much, and I am framing my idea towards how SE has created their Monk. If I were to frame it in my way, my Monk would be very different from what you see in this game.

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You are asking for a 30% buff to DPS when out of position. The penalties for being out of position are there for a reason.

Done.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I have mained MNK since 2.1, done Coil 1-9 on it, every single dungeon in the game on a MNK, pretty much all content imaginable on a MNK. It has not once frustrated me in any way.

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I don't believe that.

If you are telling the truth, then you are a one-dimensional player. We are not the same.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

You are asking for a 30% buff to DPS when out of position. The penalties for being out of position are there for a reason.

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You're trolling again. That's not what I'm asking.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Before:
BS > TS > SP (Back combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (back)


After:
BS > TS > SP (Back combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit if from behind
Truestrike 190 Potency (back)
Snap Punch 180 Potency (back)

BS > TS > SP (Front combo)
Bootshine 150 Potency + crit 50% chance if from front
Truestrike 170 Potency (front)
Snap Punch 160 Potency (front)

It's not game breaking, and not hard to implement. Incentive to attack from behind remains as the priority, but gives you an option for the front.

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That Snap Punch doing 180 potency from the back doe. I've been doing it on the side this whole time, maybe I should drop my claws, and bring out the daggers.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

That Snap Punch doing 180 potency from the back doe. I've been doing it on the side this whole time, maybe I should drop my claws, and bring out the daggers.

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Haha. Fixed.

Hm... Not that I am against the idea but that means more acc will be required for so called 100% hit chance from the front ( hit from the front always requires higher acc for what is needed for the flank and rear), that means less focus on Det/Crit = DPS drop... I don't know, could be fun but not a compulsory.

I don't know the accuracy differences from each side of a mob for higher content, but that's another incentive for you not to combo from the front. So it shouldn't force you to go for any more accuracy then what you have to get now. It's only meant for solo and special situations.

I'd rather have a way to attack my target from the front; with a lower chance of connecting, then to have no option other then the base potency you get stuck with now.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

It's only meant for solo and special situations.

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Truthfully, none of the classes in the game are meant to be played "solo". That's why all the enemies for quests that need to be tackled on your own are incredibly easy to defeat. It's why the role system exists. You don't NEED front positional bonuses because the base potency of the skills are high enough to defeat them with ease.

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I'd rather have a way to attack my target from the front; with a lower chance of connecting, then to have no option other then the base potency you get stuck with now.

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The thing is, the base potency is the "front potency" you're asking for. It would just make no sense to buff it. Sure, we're weaker from the front, but we're not weak enough by any means to warrant a buff to the damage.

No.
No.
No.


ps: No.

If monks had a harder time than other classes soloing mobs in the open world, then there might be a good reason to implement this, but that's not the case. There are plenty of opportunities to use your positional bonuses even while soloing and all bosses have either a flank or a rear to attack.

No point in cramming more information on an already crowded tool tip and further confusing new players.

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Originally Posted by Haerhee

The thing is, the base potency is the "front potency" you're asking for. It would just make no sense to buff it.

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No. That is not what I am asking for. The base potency is a 40% difference, it's a BIG gap. What I am asking for would shorten the gap, not close it.

No sense to buff it? We should have a way to attack from the front in this game period. How is this Alien to you? This should be in the game like Pummel was in the game for 1.0 to attack from the FRONT.

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Originally Posted by Haerhee

Sure, we're weaker from the front, but we're not weak enough by any means to warrant a buff to the damage.

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Just because you are a strong Monk doesn't justify not being able to attack from the front with power. Are you a Monk or a Thief?

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Originally Posted by Soleless

No point in cramming more information on an already crowded tool tip and further confusing new players.

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Anything brand new to you would be confusing, that's just an excuse. It won't be difficult to understand and there is no good reason why Monks should be so one-dimensional.

This topic reminds me of how frustrated I was playing PGL as my first class, few days ago.

I expected PGL/MNK to be like a power house with flawless vit and paper armor. No offense to PGL out there, but monks looks like a fool running around monsters, swapping rear-flank hits everytime. I wanted it to be more like drg or nin, with few positional attacks and more unconditional burst.

But that was a good thing. I reroll to GLD and I'm loving to be a Tank, first time on my mmo-life. I never expected tanking would be so good. :D

I know that has nothing to do with topic subject, but just my two cents and newbie opinion, since I thought something similar to what OP is saying.

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Originally Posted by DSaint

This topic reminds me of how frustrated I was playing PGL as my first class, few days ago.

I expected PGL/MNK to be like a power house with flawless vit and paper armor. No offense to PGL out there, but monks looks like a fool running around monsters, swapping rear-flank hits everytime. I wanted it to be more like drg or nin, with few positional attacks and more unconditional burst.

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Monks are strong in this game, as long as you have a tank around.

This game's version of Monk is an end-game tool not allowed to stand on their own two feet or think outside of their positional zones.

I quit this game for 8 months because of how limited Monk feels.