Ninja Single Target DPS Rotation - Early Attempts

So the mudra priority seems to be Suiton (if SATA is up) > Raiton (if Kassatsu is up) > Huton? Or does an unbuffed Raiton beat out Huton? What's the CD of Ninjutsu and Trick Attack for that matter?

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Originally Posted by Apl_Juice

So the mudra priority seems to be Suiton (if SATA is up) > Raiton (if Kassatsu is up) > Huton? Or does an unbuffed Raiton beat out Huton? What's the CD of Ninjutsu and Trick Attack for that matter?

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I would say Huton should be up constantly, as mentioned by MrHappy on his stream last night if you can cast Huton before the fight starts then it's amazing, if not you'll use it after the first TA, or as your first ability if you don't want to mess about with Hide -> Trick Attack.

So Huton --> Suiton if TA is up --> Raiton.

I'll be saving Kassutsu for Trick Attack combo aswell (Sui - TA - Kas - Rai)

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

I would say Huton should be up constantly, as mentioned by MrHappy on his stream last night if you can cast Huton before the fight starts then it's amazing, if not you'll use it after the first TA, or as your first ability if you don't want to mess about with Hide -> Trick Attack.

So Huton --> Suiton if TA is up --> Raiton.

I'll be saving Kassutsu for Trick Attack combo aswell (Sui - TA - Kas - Rai)

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Exactly this. Huron should be priority #1 if you don't have jus satsuma up to get soon after doing a nin cast for TA or R a it on if TA is down.

So without Kusatsu its:

Huton > Suiton + TA > raiton. For ST dps. This is a good established guideline.

What about aoe rotation?

Oh, it didn't even occur to me that you could perform mudras outside of battle, durr.

Okay, so Huton always on, then. That brings up another question on whether Skill Speed becomes viable, since 15% is equivalent to GL3, correct?

Aside from that, saving Kassatsu for Trick Attack seems great if their CDs line up, but is it optimal if they aren't?

I believe Kassutsu will have a longer recast than TA. TA is looking about a minute CD, Kassutsu seems about 2 - 3 minutes (very rough estimate). So you could by all means get kassutsu every other TA. If they are both on multiples of minutes they should line up almost perfectly that way.

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Originally Posted by Apl_Juice

Oh, it didn't even occur to me that you could perform mudras outside of battle, durr.

Okay, so Huton always on, then. That brings up another question on whether Skill Speed becomes viable, since 15% is equivalent to GL3, correct?

Aside from that, saving Kassatsu for Trick Attack seems great if their CDs line up, but is it optimal if they aren't?

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GL2 not 3.

Snap Punch says a stack gets 5%, and Huton says 15%

Thought GL3 was 15% att speed increase and 27% damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

What about aoe rotation?

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Doesn't really have much of one. Only GCD AoE is lol100pot unless it's boosted by a trait.

Doton will be the better AoE jutsu to use (240pot floor dot over 24 seconds) unless you have Kassatsu, in which case you can toss out Katon too (180pot) though if it's anything like Life Surge you will only auto-crit one target.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Doesn't really have much of one. Only GCD AoE is lol100pot unless it's boosted by a trait.

Doton will be the better AoE jutsu to use (240pot floor dot over 24 seconds) unless you have Kassatsu, in which case you can toss out Katon too (180pot) though if it's anything like Life Surge you will only auto-crit one target.

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Yeah so I probably won't completely abandon my BLM/SMN. AoE looks to be fairly nonexistent. I guess that's part of the balancing act.

I made a big mistake on my initial burst damage theory which needs updating, Shadow Fang has a potency of 440, not 240. completely messed up there.

It also appears to gain at trait at Level 44 which increases it DoT to 45 per tick.

This means Shadow Fang will do 470 potency at level 50, and 517 when buffed with Trick Attack.

So with this in mind the best burst rotation after Suiton --> Trick Attack should be;

Mutilate [396] ->Kraiton [396!] ->Spin [165] ->Fang [517] -> Spinning Edge [165] = 1474 1639

This is if you can get Kassatsu + Raiton performed quick enough to get 5 hits in With Spinning edge being the last, or assassinate if the enemy is below 20%.

Although if that isn't the case then the next best option is

Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Fang [517] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] Final Total 1460

This is also a lot safer as you have nothing to mess up, If you want to see big flashy numbers you can also swap Mutilate at the start for Aeoilian edge at the end, losing 44 potency overall, but hitting with a big number.

@Jakz if you're saving Kassatsu for Raiton after trick attack, are you not starting your opener with Huton? Or if you are, what skills are you using while Ninjutsu is on cooldown between Huton and Suiton?

Okay so from information gathered the timer are as follows

Ninjutsu - 20sec CD Kassatsu - 3 minute CD SATA - 1 minute CD Mutilate DoT -30sec

Huton Buff - 70s Dancing Edge Buff - 20s Shadow Fang DoT - 18sec


We also know our combos are

Combo 1 Spinning Edge --> Gust Slash --> Dancing Edge 6 sec

Combo 2 Spinning Edge --> Shadow Fang 4 sec

Combo 3 Spinning Edge --> Gust Slash --> Aeoilian Edge 6 sec

So opening would be

Huton? --> Hide -->[fight start] TA --> Mutilate -2 sec-> Combo 1 -8 sec-> Jugulate / Mug --> Combo 2 -12 sec-> Jug / Mug --> Combo 3 -18 sec-

By this point you should have Ninjutsu back.

Raiton --> Combo 1 - 2 --> Mutilate --> Com 3 -> early refresh to huton --> Combo 1 - 2 - 3 --> Suiton - TA - Kassatsu - Raiton - combo 2 - 3 -->Mutilate --> combo 1 --> Raiton


It's starting to get complicated, but you really have to think of it like dragoon, prioritizing from most to least important. while weaving any Off GCD skills into the rotation.

Also this is just my best guess, i'm most probably miles off the mark, so far off the mark may be a dot to me.

@Shoalin Fixed

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

So opening would be

Huton? --> Hide -->[fight start] TA --> Mutilate -2 sec-> Combo 1 -8 sec-> Jugulate / Mug --> Combo 2 -12 sec-> Jug / Mug --> Combo 3 -18 sec-

By this point you should have Ninjutsu back.

Raiton --> Combo 1 - 2 --> Mutilate --> Com 3 -> early refresh to huton --> Combo 1 - 2 - 3 --> Suiton - TA - Raiton - combo 2 - 3 -->Mutilate --> combo 1 --> Raiton

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Looks good, except you can't do Suiton-->TA-->Raiton without Kassetsu, as Ninjutsu will still be on cooldown.

I think your right on the priority system like drg but there is more to nin than drg has imo ( drg main till Tuesday).

It looks complicated because you keep writing out long chains. I think if you break down into priority it simplifies it more after the initial opening. Nin seems to have two priority systems to manage at once. Melee abilities with dots and ninjitsu abilities.

It's also explained in a chart that was posted, I'll have to find link.

After initial opening: ( this is how remembering this helps me)

Check Debuff/buff timers. Since nin has 2 dots at the end of combo chains I'll be looking at the timers at guidelines. Then there is the ogcd dot which can be applied at any time.

Mutilate about to fall off? Then reapply mutilate
shadow fang going to fall soon? Do combo to reapply.
Dancing edge going to fall (and no war in party)? reapply combo for debuff.

Nothing in immediate danger of falling? Do High potency combo.

Ninjutsu: again looking at timers.

Huton going to fall in 30 seconds or less? Reapply Huton
Huton with 30 + seconds with TA/Kusatsu up? Suiton > TA then Kraiton.
Etc etc.. you get the idea.

Easier said than done, but that's what I'll be trying to manage if I can.

Also in this this video, mudra recast seem faster than 1 second... maybe I'm trippin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppn5aGLfxSk

It seems that Mudras are off GCD and has its own GCD of 1 s. It is similar to Lustrate of of Scholar

Something of note in case people's initial rotations are getting fuzzy with reapplying dots and keeping Ninjutsu on cooldown, I noticed in the anniversary gameplay video that it seems that using mudras and ninjutsu don't interrupt your combo.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Also in this this video, mudra recast seem faster than 1 second... maybe I'm trippin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppn5aGLfxSk

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Yes but its then based on your finger speed with accuracy and ninjutsu be used to finish it off. Think 0.7 seconds per mudra, Raiton is 3 buttons so thats 2.1 seconds (just using a random number) now you could go really fast and hope the latency keeps up, but it may be a case of holding of that split second just to be sure you don't miss a mudra.

but until we get our hands on mudras within the week we won't know at all how quickly you can mash the buttons for them to respond appropiately.

EDIT: @Kikoshi Didn't spot that that, if that hasn't been changed then that'll be awesome.

Venom --> JinChiTen Ninjutsu (Huton) --> Hide --> TA --> BFB --> SE --> Kassatsu --> GS --> Xpot --> DE --> IR --> SE --> JinChi Ninjutsu (Raiton) --> SF --> Jug (TA debuff falls off here) --> Mut --> PPP --> SE --> GS --> AE (BFB & Xpot should fall off here, IR 1 GCD later)

I'm assuming that DoTs are not affected by slashing resistance (similar to how phble DoT is not affected by Disembowel), and Ninjutsus are elemental spells that are also not affected by slashing resistance.

TA increases damage taken by target during that 10seconds, the DoTs after the first 10 seconds don't get the 10% bonus, since the debuff will fall off while the tick is going.

SE > GS > SE is second in weapon potency to only SE > GS > AE but it sets up better for the subsequent skills by placing the 10% slashing debuff early.
SE > SF is third in weapon potency and since SE > GS > AE would not be in time for TA's debuff to last until AE, SE > SF is preferred

This is all assuming a very tight 2s GCD, assuming Huton's speed buff and SS from gear is enough to push the GCD that low (similar to an instant GL3)

I personally dislike using BFB before the fight starts for TA (400 potency) as you will lose some precious 2seconds or more of the debuff (if tank delays start etc) and it won't last till the last AE (320 potency, with slashing debuff on)

Hope my reasoning is sound for the opener.

I don't know if anyone notice. In the 2.4 patch preview trailer, it seems that the Ninja use 3 Ninjutsus at the same time.
It looks like he used kassatsu between the first and second ninjutsu. Is it possible that Kassatsu give you ability to cast as many Ninjutsu during its duration?
Or they just probably remove the Cd of mudras for demo purposes

Looks good except for kassatsu, which only makes ninjutsu crit so would be best used directly before raiton, this also gets the most efficiency out of it. I would of thought that anyway.

Since being detected breaks stealth, and certain enemies have special sight, I doubt opening Hide-> TA will be optimal, but if TA is wanted/needed for an opening, it would be Suiton -> TA.

Interested to know how

Trick Attack, Sneak Attack and Shukuchi will work since one of the Mudra buffs let's you use those skills outside of Hiding.

i.e. Trick Attack -> Perfect Dodge -> Blink to Front -> Sneak Attack

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Interested to know how

Trick Attack, Sneak Attack and Shukuchi will work since one of the Mudra buffs let's you use those skills outside of Hiding.

i.e. Perfect Dodge -> Move Front -> Sneak Attack -> Blink to rear -> Trick Attack

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Sneak Attack and Trick Attack share cooldown so cant do that.
Its one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Sneak Attack and Trick Attack share cooldown so cant do that.
Its one or the other.

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@Judge_Xero you're on the right track except for what Fue said. Also, keep in mind the Trick Attack's 10s damage buff benefits the entire party, so it would actually be superior to Sneak Attack. That being said, you wouldn't really need to Sneak Attack -> Shikuchi, unless the enemy was low on HP. In that case, you could do something like Perfect Dodge -> Move to Front -> Sneak Attack ->Shikuchi -> Assassinate. I still think that Trick Attack is the safer option, but teleporting adds tons of fun factor :-)

Does the 10% damage buff could benefit Limit Break ?

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Looks good except for kassatsu, which only makes ninjutsu crit so would be best used directly before raiton, this also gets the most efficiency out of it. I would of thought that anyway.

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Don't forget that Kassatsu also resets the cooldown timer for Ninjutsu.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Sneak Attack and Trick Attack share cooldown so cant do that.
Its one or the other.

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Thanks for the reply. I missed that part about Trick/Sneak Attack. Guess I skimmed the notes too quick.

Mostly just saw 400 Potency F-Yeah, 500 Potency, Oh baby.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Don't forget that Kassatsu also resets the cooldown timer for Ninjutsu.

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Yeah I meant that in regards of not criting anything other than Jutsu. I get the feeling if you pop TA and Kraiton that early into the fight aswell your gonna be taking hate off the tank, it's an insane amount of burst damage with no way of removing the enmity gains.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Yeah I meant that in regards of not criting anything other than Jutsu. I get the feeling if you pop TA and Kraiton that early into the fight aswell your gonna be taking hate off the tank, it's an insane amount of burst damage with no way of removing the enmity gains.

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Good point. So maybe it would make more sense to let Ninjutsu cooldown on its own after the initial Huton, then maybe use Kassatsu after the first Raiton for double Raiton. Then, by the time the second natural cooldown wears off, it'll be close to time to refresh Huton. Too lazy to write out the timing for rotation, but I think you get the general idea.

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Originally Posted by Miridori

It seems that Mudras are off GCD and has its own GCD of 1 s. It is similar to Lustrate of of Scholar

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They definitely have to be off gcd if you're going to do ten > chi > jin > ninjutsu, all sharing recast and the ten/chi/jin status only lasts 5 seconds. 3x the recast < 5 seconds or you'd have ten wearing off before you pop ninjutsu.

Also relink: https://zyphxion.github.io/ninjutsu/ for anyone looking to practice :D Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

They definitely have to be off gcd if you're going to do ten > chi > jin > ninjutsu, all sharing recast and the ten/chi/jin status only lasts 5 seconds. 3x the recast < 5 seconds or you'd have ten wearing off before you pop ninjutsu.

Also relink: https://zyphxion.github.io/ninjutsu/ for anyone looking to practice :D Enjoy.

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Thanks for the link :-) I also mentioned in another thread, I think, that you can memorize the mudras based on their translation and how they relate to what you're trying to cast. Example:

Ten = Heaven
Chi = Earth
Jin = Man.

So for Raiton (lightning), you do heaven, earth, ninjutsu. Lightning strikes from "heaven" down to "earth".

Katon (fire) = earth, heaven, ninjutsu. Fire burns from the ground upward.

Doton (corrupted earth) = heaven,man,earth,ninjutsu.

You get the idea.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Looks good except for kassatsu, which only makes ninjutsu crit so would be best used directly before raiton, this also gets the most efficiency out of it. I would of thought that anyway.

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kassatsu's crit on next ninjutsu has 10 seconds timer on the buff. If you're worth your salt you would kassatsu, use whatever buffs that can increase your damage available within that 10 seconds and then hit the raiton.

That sounds like a very risky maneuver to me, if you make a slight hiccup on your raiton casting then that's you best CD wasted. I guess I like to play it safe, high risk play style doesn't work for me.

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Originally Posted by Spartan117

kassatsu's crit on next ninjutsu has 10 seconds timer on the buff. If you're worth your salt you would kassatsu, use whatever buffs that can increase your damage available within that 10 seconds and then hit the raiton.

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Depending on what damage buffs you have up anyway. You should be using them whenever they are up during the course of the fight.

I love where this thread has gone with the mudra theorycrafting. The class is shaping up nicely but seems a little similar to dragoon. I am glad that the mudras are doing a lot to keep the rotation/skillset from being too similar to dragoon.

Anyone else feel like the dubuff/DoT icons look too similar? I was about to make a thread about it but it might just be me.

For reference:
http://i.imgur.com/oeLXKPM.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/OtteesY.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/WitI4F4.png

Yeah they do look alike a lot. What I did (PS4 player) was I developed a hotbar for what I thought would be comfortable for me once I got to level 50 and started building based on the final product from the beginning. So while I was leveling Rogue, I only used the cross class skills that would be available to me once I hit NIN (Protect being the one exception), and I left slot open for skills that I hadn't acquired yet. So by the time I get everything unlocked, I'll already be comfortable with where all the skills are placed, and won't have to look at them as much to figure out what's on cooldown.