Are CNJ's and WHM's now DD's?

Well, I myself usually switch between CS and normal, really situational...

But i turn it of when i acutally heal, because healing with CS on never really works out...

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

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Completely unrelated, but I can't stop staring (and laughing) at the gif in your signature...

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If I saw the other healer - namely WHM - in CS while healing the entire time in a HM/EX/Raid, I'd assume they either didn't notice, or just doesn't care how much more work/mp the other healer has to do/use to cover their slacked heal rate.... :|

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Originally Posted by Everdark

Any Damage being dealt by a WHM is gravy and should never be required.

you play your class to heal, so if no one is eating floor you're doing your job and thats enough. If you feel comfortable enough to put out some DPS then great, I'm sure you'll help clear content 0.5 seconds faster.

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This is not true. In speed runs with massive pulls, a whm with Presence of mind up spamming Holy can very easily outdps almost EVERY dps job in the game, with blm the only exception probably - Healer dps is no joke.
While its important healers should do their best to keep everyone alive, a top-notch healer needs to know how and when to dps as well.

Yoshi made it clear healers are not supposed to be dps.
Hence why they disabled cleric stance in PvP.
Thats a pretty big sign that we are meant to be just healers healing and afking and healing again.
But if ur geared blahahahahahaha then go dps in dungeons etc and do everything.
But all in all, yes we r not dps and yoshi made it clear.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Completely unrelated, but I can't stop staring (and laughing) at the gif in your signature...

Related>
If I saw the other healer - namely WHM - in CS while healing the entire time in a HM/EX/Raid, I'd assume they either didn't notice, or just doesn't care how much more work/mp the other healer has to do/use to cover their slacked heal rate.... :|

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Thats me lol ( the healer in cs like 70% of time ) i just do it cuz frankly idc as the dps r most likely too strong for the instance now and will push phases thus making the damage intake so pathetic it makes u question ur job as a healer lol.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Yoshi made it clear healers are not supposed to be dps.
Hence why they disabled cleric stance in PvP.
Thats a pretty big sign that we are meant to be just healers healing and afking and healing again.
But if ur geared blahahahahahaha then go dps in dungeons etc and do everything.
But all in all, yes we r not dps and yoshi made it clear.

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What does balance in Frontlines and other modes of PvP have to do with PvE activities?

If healers weren't meant to DPS, they wouldn't retain their DPS skills or stance after hitting 50. There is no justification for players flat-out refusing to DPS when they don't need to heal; lazy healers are lazy.

Except that healers DPS when they go solo, otherwise they're SOL.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Except that healers DPS when they go solo, otherwise they're SOL.

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The mandatory solo content almost entirely stops at 50, so I could see them having disabled healer classes' ability to do serious damage if that were their intended direction. It would have been profoundly annoying and a terrible idea, of course.

Other games where healers are given token DPS abilities in case they absolutely must solo something typically give just that; token skills. You might get 1 single target nuke, 1 CC, and a weak-to-moderate AoE, but little-to-nothing that would be worth your time or resources to use in group content. SE obviously designed the healing classes with a full suite of offensive abilities, most of which are used regularly in content ranging from basic 4 man dungeons to Coil. For anyone to say that healers aren't meant to DPS in this game is beyond silly.

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

I can't think of any words for this....I suspect the other healer in the group was having a fit watching this happen.

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I just said "aoe heal in CS after the jump" didn't mean CS the whole few min fight.
If you don't have steal aggro issue, ofcoz don't waste the time to turn on cs b4 the aoe cure. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

I just said "aoe heal in CS after the jump" didn't mean CS the whole few min fight.
If you don't have steal aggro issue, ofcoz don't waste the time to turn on cs b4 the aoe cure. ^^;

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You do realise White Mages have this funky ability called SHROUD OF SAINTS

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You do realise White Mages have this funky ability called SHROUD OF SAINTS

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That's becoz TitanHM will jump again before you can use SoS again... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Saseal

Completely unrelated, but I can't stop staring (and laughing) at the gif in your signature...

Related>
If I saw the other healer - namely WHM - in CS while healing the entire time in a HM/EX/Raid, I'd assume they either didn't notice, or just doesn't care how much more work/mp the other healer has to do/use to cover their slacked heal rate.... :|

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In the case when you need to heal but don't want over heal,
for exmaple, when titan jump, you cant do dps at that moment, you will never have mp issue for the whole fight,
everyone taken dmg, but your medica will over cure eveyrone.

So in this very special moment, I found CS could be use to reduce cure power intentionally. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

That's becoz TitanHM will jump again before you can use SoS again... ^^;

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Then you're AoE healing an unnecessary amount or the tanks are extremely scrub. Even in Titan EX a single Medica II being cast after the first tumult is sufficient to top everyone off once the over time healing wears off (with Divine Seal if you need to). But if you're (for example) spamming Medica II combined with 2 Medica's, I can understand why your tanks are struggling with hate issues. Another possibility that you're using Shroud right after finishing the cast. It takes a second or two before you actually gain enmity from healing. Using shroud right after healing would cut your pre-healed enmity in half but adds in the enmity generated afterwards on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Then you're AoE healing an unnecessary amount or the tanks are extremely scrub..

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Seriously, I think there were 2 causes, first the tank was not working hard enough, second I had many stone2 critical hits.
Just want to mention this weird usage as I found it would be helpful in some special moment.
Maybe one day it will become not weird when an i200 whm helping his first timer tank frd on titanHM. ^^;

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I only have this happend on my last weekend light farming in only TitanHM, not other primals.
Now I only farm GarudaHM as the fight is much shorter, so I have not tried this weird CS usage again. ^^;

lol this thread has gone way off track

mods should delete or lock before it gets into another shitstorm

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Seriously, I think there were 2 causes, first the tank was not working hard enough, second I had many stone2 critical hits.
Just want to mention this weird usage as I found it would be helpful in some special moment.
Maybe one day it will become not weird when an i200 whm helping his first timer tank frd on titanHM. ^^;

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I dont understand how you think CS helps your healing, it nerfs it quite drastically, read the tool tip... The tank was probably struggling because you were medica II spamming, you only need to use medica II once after titan jumps, I have never had tanks struggle to keep agro off me regardless of their gear level. A good healer knows how to manage their hate and not deliberately pull from tanks. If you did manage to pull from the MT it would probably have resulted in your death, a wipe and a very angry party.

Also in titan id rather you used your MP on healing rather than spamming stone II...

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

I dont understand how you think CS helps your healing...Also in titan id rather you used your MP on healing rather than spamming stone II...

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I am sorry I have confused you ^^;
In short, I just mean normally CS is used to increased dmg, but you can use it to reduce cure number intentionally.

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

Also in titan id rather you used your MP on healing rather than spamming stone II...

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On the other points I agree, but there's very little to heal in Titan if people do it right. Titan HM is a snooze fest; heal Tumult, heal Geocrush, heal tank occasionally. I'd rather the WHM be doing something with the thousands of MP they don't need, especially if you have the default two healer slots from DF.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

They say they are healing just fine with CS up even though I have to pop potions and my BLM friend spends half the battle healing because the CNJ/WHM are to busy DDing.

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Well, I've heard enough. Sounds like this WHM was just being immature, not aware of what others are having to do, or just plain bored of their class. It seems they want to play a DD but don't want to suffer the longer dungeon queues.

BLM should not have to be healing. It's nice that they tried, but there's no reason for it if you have a remotely adequate healer. Almost would have been worth it to let the party wipe if the WHM's not doing their job, just to prove a point. If they "are healing just fine with CS up," then no one should die because of it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

On the other points I agree, but there's very little to heal in Titan if people do it right. Titan HM is a snooze fest; heal Tumult, heal Geocrush, heal tank occasionally. I'd rather the WHM be doing something with the thousands of MP they don't need, especially if you have the default two healer slots from DF.

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Think I might of just been unlucky with my DF titan runs then. Theres always at least 2 min getting hit with aoes and I usually have to ress someone thats charged headlong into a bomb. I don't mean NEVER DPS during titan but don't blow it all on DPS incase suddenly everything goes nuts and people are getting hit by aoes and suddenly you need to start healing like crazy (or if your healing partner gets landslided and you are suddenly solo healing). Had parties that barely needed healed then as soon as phase 5 happened everyone jumped ship and I had to start healing like mad.

It's true that people will take enormous damage in Titan if they can't do the mechanics.

On the bright side, a lot of these same people who refuse to learn the fight will get themselves knocked over the edge so that you can stop pretending to care about healing and rezzing them.

a 20-minute run becomes 15 minutes - why not if it indeed finishes at 15 mins?

It really depends on how well the healer do the Stance Dance
The the key to the stance dance is to know that all buffs in FF14 have skill-base effects, i.e. any skills/spell used before the cleric stance is not affected by it - if you cast a Regen or Adloquium before going cleric stance, their HOT and shield will maintain their full effectiveness after the stance shift.
Another thing to know is the cool down limitation of the cleric stance - the stance can only be cancelled by using it again, not by right clicking on the icon - this limitation makes it so that while cancelling the stance itself incurs no cooldown, however whenever right after you shift into the cleric stance, there is a 5 second or so delays when you can cast it again. i.e. you cannot cancel your cleric stance right after you use it for 5 seconds.

it's all about preference and competence, there's no right or wrong doing

Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it should be done. No healer should heal with CS on, no exceptions. It only takes half a second to click it off.

But its k im pretty sure they'll rework it a bit when 3.0 releases as you know a big expansion = changes bound to happen.
So lets just all get along and say
Its not about if healers are DDs, its rather more about what target healers are dpsing.
That includes other players, mobs, bosses, some other thing like objects.

OP did the blm actually have to heal, and did the tank actually have to use potions, because y'all died once already, or because you can't do something did you just not trust that the whm knows what they are doing? A good healer who's stance dancing is going to let your hp drop to levels that scare you probably. Especially once be benidiction is added to the arsenal. There is 0 reason to stay on cs the whole time however I have had party's where people use potions and heal when they should just be trusting the healer. But according to them every time a tank gets hit once they should be cured, and that's not accurate.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

I have recently been running lower level dungeons as a WAR to help him level BLM. As soon as the dungeon starts the CNJ/WHM pops Cleric Stance. When I ask them about it they said that they can heal just fine with Cleric Stance up. Which I know is not true because I have an i90 WHM and I never went through a dungeon with CS up. Now I'm starting to wonder if maybe I played WHM wrong because there are WHM that are in the dungeon that have way higher iLevels than I do. They say they are healing just fine with CS up even though I have to pop potions and my BLM friend spends half the battle healing because the CNJ/WHM are to busy DDing. I know SCH can heal and DD just fine. Is this just CNJ/WHM's being jealous and trying to prove they can do everything a SCH can do too? Or am I just playing WHM wrong?

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Something is wrong when the BLM has to step up to heal. If the healer tells me they can do just fine and another caster has to step in to help heal, then it is time to call em on it. As WHM, I constantly DPS, in or out of CS. Mostly I just stance dance, any added DPS helps thing move along faster, but not at the sacrifice of heals(HOLY x ASMANYASICANGET...tank is low on health...BENEDICTION > HOLY HOLY HOLY HOLY!!!!).

As SCH I DPS full time unless I am actually needed to heal. EOS is da shits in low level duties.

Stance dance or they aren't doing it right. I DPS as WHM all the time in dungeons, but will never heal in CS.

I mean you shouldn't be using pots or having BLM supplement heals. Just die. Let healer l2p don't cover up their flaws otherwise they think they are doing fine and developing real bad habits.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

Something is wrong when the BLM has to step up to heal. If the healer tells me they can do just fine and another caster has to step in to help heal, then it is time to call em on it.

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Or maybe the tank was in no danger of dying any time soon and the BLM was just healing when they didn't need to.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

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The WHM also spike DMG better than the SCH so killing a mob faster with a WHM that way you can get back to healing or patching up the party is your best bet. I wouldn't say you are playing your class wrong but anytime after LVL 30 and up and your not pulling some damage out there is a problem with your play style.......

I DPS and Tank and when I see the party at full health and the healer is doing the bomb dance I get pretty pissed

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I like this and second this. While my WHM is only 43/44, I actively toggle back n forth from Cleric stance. I don't heal with CS active unless in higher lvl play when I have Divine Seal accessible. I use cleric stance stone II when bored waiting for damage to be inflicted and I already have the whole party in stoneskin etc. But the whm that annoy me are the ones CONSTANTLY in Cleric stance and letting the teams life fall too low and never come out while spamming medica and other costly heals...

There should be a healer duty that requires the player to DPS targets in CS, then to toggle CS off in order to heal NPCs. Get them used to the concept of appropriate stance-dancing.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

There should be a healer duty that requires the player to DPS targets in CS, then to toggle CS off in order to heal NPCs. Get them used to the concept of appropriate stance-dancing.

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I'm going to disagree with this because at the end of the day when all is said and done, a WHM's priority is still healing, not DPS in CS. While stance dancing and throwing down a little additional DPS makes for a better player and speeds up low level content, it's mostly not necessary in high tier end game. If I have a chance in high tier content, I usually just stick to CS -> Aero -> Aero2 -> maybe a Stone2 and then back out of CS. My job is to heal, not to DPS. I'll help when I can, other than that the DPS can do their jobs.

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Originally Posted by zl0gic

I'm going to disagree with this because at the end of the day when all is said and done, a WHM's priority is still healing, not DPS in CS. While stance dancing and throwing down a little additional DPS makes for a better player and speeds up low level content, it's mostly not necessary in high tier end game. If I have a chance in high tier content, I usually just stick to CS -> Aero -> Aero2 -> maybe a Stone2 and then back out of CS. My job is to heal, not to DPS. I'll help when I can, other than that the DPS can do their jobs.

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He mentioned it so up-coming healers can learn to stance-dance. Healing is still a healer's main concern, of course. Learning to turn cleric's stance on and off (or stance dancing) is still a useful trick to teach yourself. Even if it's not stance dancing on a healing class, tank should learn this as well with all the tank-swap mechanics and even monks* to an extend.

Although, in a way the player should have already learned to do this. They have to solo the class/job quests after all.

*I mentioned monk, but the only occasion I can imagine doing this would be Titan encounters D:

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Originally Posted by zl0gic

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I can understand where you're coming from, but I still consider proper use of CS to be an essential skill for the healer role, and you might be surprised how many lvl 50 healers have no idea how to use CS for group play.

A lot of players around here keep trying to say that it's okay to play as if CS and DPS spells didn't exist, which is like saying that it's okay for DRGs not to use HT or for BRDs to ignore their songs. I truly do think that new healers could benefit by being explicitly shown how to maximize their kits.

So after my last posting here, I still got some TitanHM before I have completed my Nexus week ago.

Just a brainstorm again, I verified intentionally turn on CS and cast an AOE heal after titan jump is good in those 5min light farming party.
This weaken-heal is more than enough, and it would be skillfull as you don't over-cured. ^^;
You can say you even don't need to cast it, but during the few seconds jump while everybody use to stack for the heal, why you don't top everyone hp up as your mp is not a concern and you can minimize the over-cured.

If you still think you are the best whm and it violates your principle, that's fine.
I just want to share an exceptional usuage at a special moment. ^^;
Again, I am talking about TitanHM light farming PT.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Just a brainstorm again, I verified intentionally turn on CS and cast an AOE heal after titan jump is good in those 5min light farming party.
This weaken-heal is more than enough, and it would be skillfull as you don't over-cured. ^^;

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If you're this confident that cleric-stance-AoE-healing in Titan HM is a good idea. Try opening another topic specifically about this. The fact you're purposely casting a heal - a big heal at that - in Cleric's Stance is as bad as black mages spamming Blizzard so he/she does not run out of MP.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Something about cleric stance AoE healing...

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I'm still trying to figure out why purposely casting this heal in CS is even under consideration by anyone. If you earned some kind of bonus by healing the party up as close as you could without actually healing them 100%, I could understand, but since there are no cookies available for this achievement, I'd just as soon throw a Medica and resume throwing rocks and farts at Titan.

I was tanking Qarn the other day with a WHM who refused to drop CS to heal. I almost died to the first pull, so while fighting the second pull I simply said "You shouldn't be healing in Cleric Stance". The WHM refused to heal me for the rest of the fight, and left the instance afterward without saying a word. I laughed because he got the lockout, and I just insta-queued back and got a better healer, but I do feel bad for the DPS who had to wait as long as they did just to kill 6 mobs.

What I don't get is the stubbornness some people exhibit when you try to help them out. It makes my brain hurt to see so many people in this thread who have that same "I can do it so it should be done" mentality, and I weep for the state of the game in the future if this mindset keeps up.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

If you're this confident that cleric-stance-AoE-healing in Titan HM is a good idea. Try opening another topic specifically about this. The fact you're purposely casting a heal - a big heal at that - in Cleric's Stance is as bad as black mages spamming Blizzard so he/she does not run out of MP.

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I am not encourage it, just want to take the chance to share this as i never knew about it before "light farming pt".
again, I am sorry if i confuse anyone. And i will prevent to off topic next time. thanks ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

I am not encourage it, just want to take the chance to share this as i never knew about it before "light farming pt".
again, I am sorry if i confuse anyone. And i will prevent to off topic next time. thanks ^^;

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The fact you're constantly making it a topic proves you are encouraging it. Don't give healers strange ideas that's looking for information on the forums. Cleric's stance healing makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

The fact you're constantly making it a topic proves you are encouraging it. Don't give healers strange ideas that's looking for information on the forums. Cleric's stance healing makes no sense.

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Lyrica, it is common sense, turn off cs to cure.
I menetioned it just bcoz it was very funny, as I found "make no sense" has an exception moment.
I don't know why some ppl will be so angry for this finding. I only can apology for it. ^^;