Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I invite you to quote the part of any of these posts that was "disrespectful". You may not like what I have to say, and the truth sometimes hurts, but that doesn't make my posts "disrespectful".

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Where in my post did I call anyone lazy? I said they don't get a free pass to slack off just because some folks think sticking a new title on a game resets the clock. If anything, now is the time to work even harder. A major MMO has an expansion looming. Other major mmos are also gaining traction, and now is a critical time for SE to prove why XIV should get all those dollars. You like things the way they are? FANTASTIC. Congratulations, even.

I tend to take the long view of things, and without criticism and developers that actually listen to it, we have disasters like 1.0 was. You may not remember it. It sure sounds like you weren't around for it...

I invite you to quote the part of any of these posts that was "disrespectful". You may not like what I have to say, and the truth sometimes hurts, but that doesn't make my posts "disrespectful".

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Did I do it right?

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Originally Posted by Triston

Did I do it right?

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Wut. /10char

because um.. ps3 limitations?
am I doing it right?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I've been hearing things, a LOT of things, about XI and the changes and let me tell you... The temptation is strong. It's really strong to give it another go and explore all the new things they have added.

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Let me save you some time by saying that FFXI has been improved immensely within the past one year alone. Updates every months that changed the game in the direction of FF14 and adding tons of improvement to be more in par with this game. The new team did beyond amazing job to modernize the game. If you plan to come back, now is a very good time, and they have FREE login next week for a week to welcome people back. You will not recognize the game, gone are the really bad design decision of the reviled Tanaka group, and in with more fresh new direction with FF14 flavor everywhere.

FFXI is definitely a more complex game. Has myriad of jobs and options. With one BIG HUGE glaring flaws, the old team cannot balance the jobs properly, and the new team is struggling very hard to improve all the "forgotten" jobs such as Dragoon, Summoner, Beastmaster, Red Mage, Ninja, Dark Knight, Thief, and yes, like the OP mentioned, Puppetmaster. All these "exciting jobs" you want to add in FF14 are considered trash useless jobs in FFXI. Endgame in FFXI is pretty much boiled down to Paladin, White Mage, Scholar, Monk, Samurai, Ranger, Bard, and Corsair. Both new jobs such as Rune Fencer and Geomancer are deemed a waste of party slot, useless, and just not as useful as the Bard, White Mage, Monk, Samurai, Ranger set up.

Trust me, if FF14 ends up like FFXI, you can bet half of the jobs here will be rendered useless, not wanted, trash, big waste of everyone's time. The amount of toxic bile in this forum will be overwhelming when people start complaining that so and so leave duty finder when they see their party set up full of "trash jobs" that will be considered slowing down the run.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

If anything, now is the time to work even harder. A major MMO has an expansion looming. Other major mmos are also gaining traction, and now is a critical time for SE to prove why XIV should get all those dollars.

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A little off topic but I just have to mention that attempting to compete head to head with the top dog in any industry is always a horrible business decision. You don't fight the competition when they are ramping to their peak but when they enter the lull. Why release an expansion along side theirs when you can do it once their playerbase has nothing more to look forward to.

I fail to see why this would be the time for SE to try to make a big push for getting content out. If anything, they have more then enough time to fully plan out some really nice things to come.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Sadly, I do fear you're right. I really love FFXIV for a lot of things but the minimalism everywhere isn't one of them. However, I don't think it's necessarily as contradictory as you think. I think both audiences can reasonably be served. Even XI had its simple and straightforward jobs.

But that is why I wanted to open this discussion. If SE feels there's an audience to be served, and that they can do it without breaking their carefully designed setup... maybe, just maybe, we'll see something. I do think it's worthwhile to open these threads and have these discussions, even if SE eventually comes back with a firm "no." I'm sorry if you feel it's a waste of time.

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A small note, I gave a more personalized reply in a previous edit, if you care to read it.

It's not so much of a waste of time as a bad utilization of intent. There is a certain bounds we have to realize we can work within, and move on from there. In this case I would say keep in mind, with the complexity you desire, we are still dealing with a large number of players who play primarily on a gamepad. I count myself among them. If we were to design complexity, we have to keep it at least simple enough, so that they can properly utilize it.

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within. If we were to make our adjustments more gradual or streamlined, suggestions would have a much higher chance of being heard and replied to, and then the depth, or at least a fair compromise of said desired depth, could be reached in a different, but still satisfactory manner.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Let me save you some time by saying that FFXI has been improved immensely within the past one year alone. Updates every months that changed the game in the direction of FF14 and adding tons of improvement to be more in par with this game. The new team did beyond amazing job to modernize the game. If you plan to come back, now is a very good time, and they have FREE login next week for a week to welcome people back. You will not recognize the game, gone are the really bad design decision of the reviled Tanaka group, and in with more fresh new direction with FF14 flavor everywhere.

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And someone just before you said it's the worst thing since Abyssea. It's amazing how polarized folks can be about these two games. The big barrier ended up being the game client. I may give it another go next week, but the thing I remember most about finally giving up on trying to make it work was opening XIV and launching without any additional effort on my end. Still, threads like this do make it intriguing, and anyone who played during the glory days still gets that XI "itch" every now and again...

Thanks for the response!

Puppet master is still one of the most under performing jobs in 11. Even with all that "customization" you could do. There wasn't any. People won't yell at you in endgame in 11 for doing what you want with your auto, they would tell you No! And spread it across the entire server that you don't know your job. Then you never end being allowed to ever do endgame. If you haven't played 11, then don't talk about a job on it like you have. Also the Lore in 14 is 1000th better then the lore in 11. While the storyline in 11 was great the world's lore was non existence until WotG expansion. 14 has much better storyline and more then 11, and it's only 1 yr old. 11 is going on 11+yrs now. While it looks like you can customize an auto you had 1 set up that was required and costed millions of Gil to assemble. If you tried to customize it your own way, your auto would underpreform. It Was A cool job but 11 was all about the illusion of custimization. Without having any. I played 11 from launch until shortly after the last expansion, I tried to go back and it was awful. I tried playong again about 6 months ago, They haven't fixed anything as far as job balance. They made the game easier to play for sure. Drk and Sam the 2 strongest job in the games got like 10 new abilities and made them more god like and less demi god like. While rdm, the weakest job in the game, got nerfed to hell, thf hasn't been touched, and really every job that needs stuff is untouched, but all the god jobs are now more godly

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I understand this concern. However, for me I feel that such aspects at this, infant level juncture of the game (Do not count FFXIV 1.0 as a point in history, the game was reconstructed neigh completely only barely reusing assets that saved them development time. Most of the game was scrapped or re-coded.) only a year in, I can't expect that depth to truly grow so quickly. ToAU was multiple years into FFXI's development.

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I understand, Yoshi & co have even had to catch up on stuff after release. But what we're asking for here does not seem to be the direction of the game, so I'd like to make our voices heard.

I don't really have a good answer for efficiency. It's hard to balance, especially when adding that customization and depth we're asking for here. I understand that. But as long as the dev team makes their best effort, even if it falls a little short and the job is considered less efficient... I would still rather have said deep job than not.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

Puppet master is still one of the most under performing jobs in 11. Even with all that "customization" you could do. There wasn't any. People won't yell at you in endgame in 11 for doing what you want with your auto, they would tell you No! And spread it across the entire server that you don't know your job. Then you never end being allowed to ever do endgame. If you haven't played 11, then don't talk about a job on it like you hace. Also the Lore in 14 is 1000th better then the lore in 11. While the storyline in 11 was great the world's lore was non existence until WotG expansion. 14 has much better storyline and more then 11, and it's only 1 yr old. 11 is going on 11+yrs now. While it looks like you can customize an auto you had 1 set up that was required and costed millions of Gil to assemble. If you tried to customize it your own way, your auto would underpreform. It Was A cool job but 11 was all about the illusion of custimization. Without having any.

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I'm not asking for a copy of XI mechanics, endgame, or puppetmaster in XI. Nor am I asking for a copy of XI's lore. Please read my original post, and if further clarification is still needed, the next 2 pages or so.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

LFFXI is definitely a more complex game. Has myriad of jobs and options. With one BIG HUGE glaring flaws, the old team cannot balance the jobs properly, and the new team is struggling very hard to improve all the "forgotten" jobs such as Dragoon, Summoner, Beastmaster, Red Mage, Ninja, Dark Knight, Thief, and yes, like the OP mentioned, Puppetmaster. All these "exciting jobs" you want to add in FF14 are considered trash useless jobs in FFXI. Endgame in FFXI is pretty much boiled down to Paladin, White Mage, Scholar, Monk, Samurai, Ranger, Bard, and Corsair. Both new jobs such as Rune Fencer and Geomancer are deemed a waste of party slot, useless, and just not as useful as the Bard, White Mage, Monk, Samurai, Ranger set up.

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They actually made Ranger a desired job again? I still remember the great Ranger nerf that led most of the Ranger population to bury their bows/xbows/guns.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And someone just before you said it's the worst thing since Abyssea. It's amazing how polarized folks can be about these two games. The big barrier ended up being the game client. I may give it another go next week, but the thing I remember most about finally giving up on trying to make it work was opening XIV and launching without any additional effort on my end. Still, threads like this do make it intriguing, and anyone who played during the glory days still gets that XI "itch" every now and again...

Thanks for the response!

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Note that this is from luvbunny, an avid forum goer on the official ffxi forums who for years complained about how they didnt like things in ffxi.

Here is the part you need to read from luvbunny to know if you want to try it or not "Updates every months that changed the game in the direction of FF14" its as simple as that. FFXI isn't FFXI anymore, its a mutated half ffxiv cripple.

If thats something you wan't then I guess go for it, I am just trying to help you stay informed.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

And someone just before you said it's the worst thing since Abyssea. It's amazing how polarized folks can be about these two games. The big barrier ended up being the game client. I may give it another go next week, but the thing I remember most about finally giving up on trying to make it work was opening XIV and launching without any additional effort on my end. Still, threads like this do make it intriguing, and anyone who played during the glory days still gets that XI "itch" every now and again...

Thanks for the response!

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I'm in the same group lol. I'm seriously considering taking a peek soon. If I can get a free weekend to check it out that's even better. Even if I can't sort out this "PlayOnline account transfer", I'd consider making a new character just to check the game out again ^_^

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within.

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The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users that apparently did fine with a complex pet job system using gamepads. I get that some requests seem outrageous when they seem to deviate far from what we've come to expect of FFXIV, but without those requests and really seeing what the devs can really do with them, how will we know just how far this game can go in terms of complex and rewarding gameplay? Yes, we all differ in our perception of complex and rewarding, but I think you can get the point.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users that apparently did fine with a complex pet job system using gamepads.

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It's not just him, though. I remember a quote someone posted from Yoshi-P himself that echoed the same sentiment. It was regarding making Summoner more complex in terms of pet use and the fear was that if the job was challenging, people would find it too difficult. I think that some are actually doing SE a disservice for suggesting that they aren't capable of designing an experience that can be challenging yet work under the constraints of a Console\Gamepad.

Ps2 "limitations" barrier was broken multiple times over the years, if anyone has the talent to shoehorn an experience onto a playstation, it's definitely SE.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

I'm in the same group lol. I'm seriously considering taking a peek soon. If I can get a free weekend to check it out that's even better. Even if I can't sort out this "PlayOnline account transfer", I'd consider making a new character just to check the game out again ^_^

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They're actually having a free week campaign starting the 10th. Too bad I am already a subscriber, I want a free week :-P

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

This is X not Y is a terrible reason for not adding in interesting mechanics/depth to the game.
Seriously people who reply like this are stupid.

There is a huge outcry by lots of people for more depth in all areas of the game, from gear, to jobs, to the open world, to monster AI. BUT NOPE THIS IS XIV SO WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOT AT ALL XIV DOESN'T ACCOMMODATE TO CHANGE OR CHOICES FOR THE PLAYER.

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Hey man, I think baseball would be much better if they added full contact to the sport. Allow the players to keep the bat when they run the bases and give all the players on the field body armor! It would add much more depth and skill to try and avoid getting hit by the player and catch a ball in full plate armor. and dont say my idea is stupid just because "This is baseball, not X" because this would add interesting depth/mechanics to the game! That and I might actually start to watch baseball because currently I am not interested in it so if the MLB want to actually get some hardcore fans they need to add this in the game. Oh and let them use steroids. have a separate league where people are allowed to juice so we can see how far we can push the human potential!

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

They're actually having a free week campaign starting the 10th. Too bad I am already a subscriber, I want a free week :-P

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You do get a free week. Your bill should be 1 week off in cycle after that, just like what happens in 14 on the free log in.

I read all your post b4 I posted OP. You said why can't we have x custimization. The reality is the custimization never exsisted, all those parts, just made the A I preform faster, and more reactive, instead of lvlin with you, basically you were upgrading you auto to work better. However other pets in the game already behaved better then the automatons. We are actually seeing this system to contol your automaton being used on ninjas with mudras. Mudras work similar to the way maneuvers worked in 11. If you played 11 you would have seen this already. However you were never customizing your auto. You where just slowely making it behave how all the other AI's behave. Pup came in 5+ years after the game started, of course the figured out more advanced methods by 5yrs later Summoner already can control there petc more from launch then 11 players could for the first 5 years, also we are only at lvl 50, 50 was the first lvl cap in 11. When the first increase to 75 came, every job changed drastically they all actually became their jobs from 50-60. I'm anticipating the exact thing to happen in 14. Hell several jobs change the way they play completely in 14 once you you get your lvl 44 abilities and 45 skill, Blm for instance. So if in 6 lvl and 1 skill can bc change a job up a lot just imagine 10 lvl and 2 new skills.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users ...

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I was baiting that reply. Because if we are designing puppetmaster, or any other class based off FFXI mechanics, we have to keep some things in mind.

First off, FFXI was a menu-based MMO, verses a Hotbar based we have now. Much of what made FFXI workable with a controller, was the extensive Macro writing on behalf of the players that made the game functional for them. There was much, much legwork required to play the game adequately, and much of it is not even possible in FFXIV, such as Gear Swapping.

We also have to keep in mind that the mechanics of FFXI appealed to a highly niche audience. The amount of intricacy of the class would likely have to be tuned to to audience this game is targeting, rather than a simple transposition of concept. You could bleed far more players than you retain if you cause the gameplay to shift to a level of being so obtrusive that it raises the barrier for entry.

Additionally, the pacing of the game was much, much slower, allowing more methodical methods to be used, and fit with the theme of the game. In similar respects, look at how the concept of Ninja was created. 3 Runes, that in various combination, creates different attacks - rather than a large spell list. Complexity through simplicity. I can see Puppetmaster working in similar methods, with fewer parts and components to overwhem a player with.

However, certain marrying of concepts have at their base line come with pretty bad consequences - a clear example of matters is how Hunts (open world competitive content) was implemented and the fallout that is still occurring on that as they continually adjust it.

So caution, more caution then they have displayed, I feel, is warranted when pitching and handling these ideas.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

You do get a free week. Your bill should be 1 week off in cycle after that, just like what happens in 14 on the free log in.

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Hmm didn't know that. Thanks!

People are so short-minded in thinking that taking anything from XI will ruin the game. The combat system is a lot faster and the levelling up process is a lot more streamlined/quicker. The rest of the content in XI was very well detailed and thought out, and imo the endgame was a hell of a lot more fun. It was somewhat of a grind, yes, but I would prefer a grind I enjoy over some of the mind numbing grinds in XIV.

XIV is a great game, don't get me wrong. I do love it and no I don't want a remake of XI. I do however think that if you combined the good ideas from XI and the combat/gameplay of XIV there is huge potential. Unfortunately SE won't implement anything from XI when people cannot see the good points, and sadly the majority of people who slate XI never played it or never got past level 50.

Skill, Depth, & Complexity < Casual Players & New Players

This has been Yoshi's modus operandi and he has confirmed it several times in regards to classes as simple as red mage. That is why current jobs in this game have such simple rotations.

If we ever see puppet master, it will lack much of the depth that it had in ff11.

As someone has already stated this, I will keep it short and sweet: if a mouth-breather can't play the class, it's not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Hey man, I think baseball would be much better if they added full contact to the sport. Allow the players to keep the bat when they run the bases and give all the players on the field body armor! It would add much more depth and skill to try and avoid getting hit by the player and catch a ball in full plate armor. and dont say my idea is stupid just because "This is baseball, not X" because this would add interesting depth/mechanics to the game! That and I might actually start to watch baseball because currently I am not interested in it so if the MLB want to actually get some hardcore fans they need to add this in the game. Oh and let them use steroids. have a separate league where people are allowed to juice so we can see how far we can push the human potential!

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Changing the entire game of baseball vs implementing a job/design choice which would add minor complexity to a small portion of the game.
Terrible analogy.

My hope is that they do add more varied classes/roles when 3.0 hits. I really want a Support slot, that deals with buffs/defbuffs, damage mitigation and heals. Stuff like that. Make things a bit more interesting than the trilogy of DPS, Tank and Healer.

Time will tell, but I think the basis is in place. And I too hope they stretch their wings a bit.

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Originally Posted by Celes_Chere

You act like I wouldn't want ffxi features in ffxiv. You clearly lack reading comprehension if you thought my post was negative towards ffxiv in any way. Anyways after a few lines.. All I see is someone going off on a huge rant AFTER FAILING to comprehend my post. So I aint reading your WALL OF TEXT. Have a good day. Buh-bye

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Clearly you're the one who lacks reading comprehension... that and you seem to be putting words in my mouth.
I never said it was negative, I just said your "argument" of the two games comparison just wasn't that strong, nor everyone's opinion on the subject.

But way to act mature about what I said, and jumping to conclusions before actually... reading. Not a big fan of hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

Skill, Depth, & Complexity < Casual Players & New Players

This has been Yoshi's modus operandi and he has confirmed it several times in regards to classes as simple as red mage. That is why current jobs in this game have such simple rotations.

If we ever see puppet master, it will lack much of the depth that it had in ff11.

As someone has already stated this, I will keep it short and sweet: if a mouth breather can't play the class, it's not gonna happen.

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*rolls eyes*

"Mouth-breethers" as you call them, could play all of FFXI's jobs too. A lot of you are really over-estimating the complexity of FFXI when you call the rotations in XIV simple in comparison. Do you guys remember your rotations in XI? Mine consisted of mostly waiting for my TP to reach 100 so I could use Rampage.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

*rolls eyes*

"Mouth-breethers" as you call them, could play all of FFXI's jobs too. A lot of you are really over-estimating the complexity of FFXI when you call the rotations in XIV simple in comparison. Do you guys remember your rotations in XI? Mine consisted of mostly waiting for my TP to reach 100 so I could use Rampage.

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you're cherry picking, puppet master was not a melee job that just spammed skill chains. It could tank, heal, and dps.

Yes, Yoshi has stated he wants to keep the game simple for players who are newer to the genre. He gave this very reason as to why we can't have red mage at this time. You should check your facts before you respond.

Puppetmaster was not anywhere near as amazing as you imagine it to be. It was incredibly cumbersome and customizing the AI wasn't anything amazing and mixing the different frame types just left you with a subpar puppet. And you can bet your ass that there was optimal setups that people stuck with. I loved the hell out of Blue mage in 11 but it had the same problem too, you could do a lot of stuff but being able to do any of it in a decent capacity was a struggle.

And don't get me started on Overloading which is a mechanic that is so terribly thought out that I believe gear nowadays in FF11 just makes it practically impossible to get it anymore.

I enjoyed PUP though but it was more due to the novelty and aesthetic of the job because for whatever reason I find it fun to work together with the AI. I wouldn't have shed a tear if they just gave us the 3 set frame types with preset skills as it would have cut out a lot of the bloat (and potential millions of gil for the expensive parts) while not hurting the actual gameplay of the job in my eyes. Hell it probably would have made it easier to balance and figure out how to improve it.

I see we are still dealing with the same prejudices on both sides of the argument.

We need to, collectively, as a whole, remember that we all have the interest of the game's health and well being, as well as our own entertainment, in mind.


When a player is adverse to implement elements from a game, the most common example here is FFXI, it is out of concern that the implementation of that would be harmful to the environment, not from outright repulsion of it. For every experience provided, there are thousands, if not millions of eyes upon the content. Everyone is going to have differing experiences.

For example, I detest, with a severe passion, FFXI's endgame. The concepts of it were, in my view, poorly implemented and highly deplorable. It was overly drawn out, required a number of participants that was bothersome to gather, and bred many unhealthy community situations, usually because of the level of conformity it required.

In the faster-paced game of FFXIV, we already have difficulties with 24 people raids in things such as Crystal Tower. Imagine, if you would, how that would go with 72?

So when working on these ideas, caution is warranted. Not all people remember those days as fondly. Hopefully the developers take these things in mind and, if they do take inspiration, try to work out the kinks a bit so that it works with this game environment more and are more enjoyable for the whole of the audience that is here.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

you're cherry picking, puppet master was not a melee job that just spammed skill chains. It could tank, heal, and dps.

Yes, Yoshi has stated he wants to keep the game simple for players who are newer to the genre. He gave this very reason as to why we can't have red mage at this time. You should check your facts before you respond.

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So.
Some jobs in XI were playable by "mouth breathers".
Others weren't.

What's wrong with a similar style here where we get a job that actually involves a decision making process? Heaven forbid someone actually has to think, if it isn't available to 100% of the population it shouldn't be added!
Better remove Coil, Extremes, and anything else a "mouth breather" can't do while we're at it.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

*rolls eyes*

"Do you guys remember your rotations in XI? Mine consisted of mostly waiting for my TP to reach 100 so I could use Rampage.

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*above quote* LOL so true :')

I think Cryptic_Angel was probably referring to Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. Knowing which elemental magic was best against an opponent.

The "LOL" part was much later, when people ditched skill chains and magic bursts.

I remember having a chart by my side as a blm, and I would ask the melee to do scission for my stonega II burst on...coerls was it? Anyways, it was strategic, even though it wasn't their strongest skill chain the damage would be offset by the ridiculous damage made by the magic burst. Those were really fun times, in my eyes.

1.0 had something very similar, which was removed, about breaking horns, and bleeding enemies. The thing that really held people back was a lack of information on how to do these things, or even knowing them in the first place.

I do miss that aspect of early FFXI, and FFXIV 1.0 Also food was important back in those days too!

I am hopeful (water of the wise man or liquor for the fool) that the expansion will bring back SOMETHING LIKE these old elements.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

Skill, Depth, & Complexity < Casual Players & New Players

This has been Yoshi's modus operandi and he has confirmed it several times in regards to classes as simple as red mage. That is why current jobs in this game have such simple rotations.

If we ever see puppet master, it will lack much of the depth that it had in ff11.

As someone has already stated this, I will keep it short and sweet: if a mouth breather can't play the class, it's not gonna happen.

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If FFXIV:ARR is doomed to have only "mouth breathers" play this game, why do you even play?

You always have some kind of FFXIV hate filled messages, when anyone brings up suggestions to better this game, in any light towards the actual game.

If you're so miserable, then why play a game you so clearly don't want to see succeed? I think FFXIV:ARR has great potential to be a great game for years to come, which is why I play it daily and support it. Really don't get the mentality that I'm gonna play and torture myself on a game I hate... for "X" reasons.

I could very well see PUP making it's way to FFXIV:ARR, just not until after the expansion though.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

you're cherry picking, puppet master was not a melee job that just spammed skill chains. It could tank, heal, and dps.

Yes, Yoshi has stated he wants to keep the game simple for players who are newer to the genre. He gave this very reason as to why we can't have red mage at this time. You should check your facts before you respond.

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No dude, you're the one cherry picking when you choose to talk about one of the two (out of 20 at the time I played) "complex" jobs that existed in XI. Even worse, not only was Puppetmaster not really that complex (having a long list of abilities/spells is meaningless when only a select few are used), "mouth-breethers" as you call them could play the job easily anyway, more so when it was never used in any serious content.

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

Hell the only reason puppetmaster (and many things in ff11) was so "complex" was because a ton of important, potentially detrimental information was hidden from you. I mentioned Overloading but yeah, let's keep information hidden from the player that is incredibly obtuse that gives you a high chance of making your Puppet (aka 50% of the job) just completely unable to do anything temporarily.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

So.
Some jobs in XI were playable by "mouth breathers".
Others weren't.

What's wrong with a similar style here where we get a job that actually involves a decision making process? Heaven forbid someone actually has to think, if it isn't available to 100% of the population it shouldn't be added!
Better remove Coil, Extremes, and anything else a "mouth breather" can't do while we're at it.

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You missed my point, I am agreeing with you that the game should have jobs that are hard to master. I am just saying it's not likely to happen since Yoshi himself has provided his thoughts as to why we can't have complex jobs.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

No dude, you're the one cherry picking when you choose to talk about one of the two (out of 20 at the time I played) "complex" jobs that existed in XI. Even worse, not only was Puppetmaster not really that complex (having a long list of abilities/spells is meaningless when only a select few are used), "mouth-breethers" as you call them could play the job easily anyway, more so when it was never used in any serious content.

Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

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Go find my post where I say ff11 was complex. Please, go find it and I will stop posting in this thread. All I said was that if we saw Pup in this game that it would lack the depth it had in ff11.

You're the one picking random examples from ff11 and saying "see, this was not complex." I am talking about Pup. You're arguing about a point I never made. I never said ff11 was majorly complex or that is was super simple.

Please go on though,

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Much of the parroted "complexity" and "diversity" of FFXI was nothing more than bloat.

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It's like you made a straw man and now you are fighting with it or something? It's hilarious ;)
I will just reiterate my statement again, I was never talking about ff11 as a whole. Please go back and take your time reading my posts.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

If FFXIV:ARR is doomed to have only "mouth breathers" play this game, why do you even play?

You always have some kind of FFXIV hate filled messages, when anyone brings up suggestions to better this game, in any light towards the actual game.

If you're so miserable, then why play a game you so clearly don't want to see succeed? I think FFXIV:ARR has great potential to be a great game for years to come, which is why I play it daily and support it. Really don't get the mentality that I'm gonna play and torture myself on a game I hate... for "X" reasons.

I could very well see PUP making it's way to FFXIV:ARR, just not until after the expansion though.

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If you read stuff that I post, then you would already know the answer to your question. I play because of the friends I have made. I would not sub to this game if it was not for my FC and my static. I told them I am waiting until the expansion to see how things play out.

I also want the game to succeed as much as you do. I just don't like feeling like the dev team does not care about raiders. Yoshi and the dev team have made their goals clear several times and while other games are making moves to incentive raiding, this game does nothing of that sort. So, we will see what happens come the expansion.

FFXIV is balanced so that no job gets left out
FFXI is not balanced at all

The bitter cynicism isn't productive by any means, regardless of what one's views are.

It is in the hope of finding progress and compromise that some participate in these conversations. And many people, on both sides of the argument, have been able to maintain an air of civility here.

Attempting to be short and witty does not adequately get one's 'point' across, nor does it speak well of the community to refer to its people as a generalist, crass insult.

I'll reiterate that the general agreement here is we would like to see the game improve. The only differences is how we would like to see that come about.

I feel like the conversation has gone a bit off the rails here. Please remember:

This thread is not a request to bring in puppetmaster.
This thread is not a request to copy FFXI mechanics or endgame, etc.

What is it? A request for more complex, thought out, deep jobs. Comparable to some jobs/classes seen in other MMOs. I used a specific example of a job from XI I came across while surfing, but it's not the only example out there.

I'm not saying the more straightforward jobs should go away. I would just like to see some options at the other end of the spectrum.

I'd just be happy if they opened up the support skills a bit more. There are literally DOZENS of skills which would benefit other jobs which can't be used by that class. Why? Goodness only knows. Presumably because of some bizarre notion of balance, and yet these skills are undoubtedly useable by the class the job is built from.

So, just because I go from Gladiator to Paladin, I can't regen TP with Invigorate? Does equipping the stone make Paladins stupid? They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

I guess that's my biggest gripe when it comes to 'customization'. There is literally none when it comes to skills. You have a handful of ones you can actually equip, and usually less than 5 of them are actually beneficial for your job. Much less than 5 if you're a Black Mage or Summoner.

Either they could give us some new equippable skills, where we're restricted to 1 new skill out of the selection. Or they could open up the cross-class skills to make them actually cross classes. Right now it feels more like an afterthought than any real attempt at character customization.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I was baiting that reply. Because if we are designing puppetmaster, or any other class based off FFXI mechanics, we have to keep some things in mind.

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I wasn't arguing for a puppetmaster based off of FFXI mechanics. Also, I know the difference between the two games, so going into detail about it is kind of pointless. I still play FFXI so trust me when I say I know how cumbersome that game could be, and that's not what I'm advocating turning this game into. What I am saying is that just because players use a gamepad on this game and just because this game's combat is a little bit more fast paced doesn't mean that there isn't room for complexity. You even said yourself that there is complexity through simplicity. This game doesn't have to become FFXI to have its own interesting and complex gameplay mechanics. As for bleeding subscribers, well, it goes both ways I'm sure. FFXIV has always seemed about pleasing every crowd.