Why don't they change the way we earn Atma? (An honest question, not a rant.)

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Originally Posted by Marael

Naw, that's not mundane enough, it'll probably be like running story roulette seven thousand times or something.

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Except it would go in line with the whole reviving old content BUT at the same time they can make it mundane enough by basically having a 0.01% drop rate of some mats you need 10 from each and from that you upgrade novus to a pre next step relic that then you need to run through all the dungeons each 10 times(so that rouge/nins won't have to long queues) and all the trials 10 times and all the boss fates(let's say once since they mentioned they might reduce that requirement) and then you need to spend 2000 sol on some Thavnarian acid and 10000 myth on some Doman sake and you have your relic. Sounds about right...

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Wouldn't expect much Cyrus, Madruck is pretty much the forum's equivalent to a doomsday-sayer on the sidewalk for XIV's "decline".

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Thanks for pointing it out.

RNG is not going anywhere, it's pretty much the complaint in a lot of MMO's forums, not only here. Every forum you visit that touches this subject you read the typical comments about "It's hurting the game", "it's going to kill the game", etc. Who is complaining about this? the people who didn't have good luck. Who doesn't? The ones who got their stuff. What's the ratio between these two groups? I don't know. I CAN'T use my experience with the Atma to elaborate a solid opinion about this, but to see things from above. The problem is: I'm not working for the dev. team. I can't see the statistics of the obtain ratio of these Atmas. I can't see how many Atma/Animus/Novus weapons are around. I can't talk with every people of every FC, of every server, of every datacenter to gather all the data I need.

My opinion: I know the dev. team listen to people's complaints also. You can say that something is no working well and they'll work on it. That's why we received the Alex phase of the quest, which is less RNG dependant, but it still uses it. There're differences, though, it's not the same to gather 12 stones than 75 stones. So, as I can notice, they HAD to implement an alternative on that one. The first phase of the relic is a different story. There was not much content available back then, so they had to use whatever they had to make it possible. The books were an smart decision but again, limited to the current content. So, I have variety in this quest. I'm not tied to the mercy of the RNG Gods everytime. I suffer with this in the SCOB a lot, but meh, RNG is RNG. It feels more rewarding when I'm getting something that I've been looking for ages.

I absolutly hate ATMA farming. I'm a casual 36yo player. The idea of blindly farming something with no idea of how many chances i have for a drop is beyond me. AND you need 12 Atmas.
I think i would have prefered any kind of farming but this.
Atma drops every 100 fates in the zone is a better idea.
Getting your ilvl100 weapon after 1000 atmas in total is a better idea.
Atma drops in a very special fate poping every 8hrs is a better idea.

Anything but blind farming please.

I for one have yet to hear a single person voice a genuinely positive attitude towards Atma grinding, whether in-game or on the forums. It seems to be one of those things which is universally loathed, and with good reason. It's not a fun grind, it's not a worthwhile grind. You literally get nothing out of it for hours at a time aside from about a few hundred gil and some rather worthless GC seals.

And that's where the crux of the problem lies. I think people would be more inclined to enjoy it if Fates themselves were WORTH doing. Aside from a small number of specific fates which drop minions, there is almost no incentive to actually run Fates. That's why these 'forced' incentives feel like clumsy, square-peg-into-round-hole methods to make them relevant.

Fates could have been a way to make the world feel vibrant, like a living breathing world. Instead they're mini-missions that can't be relied on to spawn at a given time, offer no real rewards, and there are no real consequences to failure. That, good people, is why the Atma grind truly sucks. Make Fates interesting, and you've solved everyone's problems at once.

Would any of you do the Atma grind if you got nothing for it?

That's a question any game developer should ask themselves whenever they make content for a game. If you or your players wouldn't play through something without a reward. Then it means its not fun and should not be placed in the game.

It seems Atma grinds are collectively about 10-15 hours of Fates (this can be spread out over a long time). And personally I see nothing wrong with the time it takes to get them. But I do have a problem with how boring and unfun they can be. Yeah you can tolerate them through listening to music while grinding, chatting on teamspeak, or just having the mental discipline to tough it out.

But no one would do it without a reward. And, that is the problem. That is where the main complaint comes from. The process to obtain the Atma weapon needs to be changed from 15 hours of boring to 15 (or longer if they want) of fun.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Your time is off by a very large margin. There are many, many, MANY people who are beyond 50+ hours of farming. I used both of my days off today and yesterday, and in total I've gone up over 900 fates since I started atma farming, and I've only got two to show for it. I've done most of these solo. It's been months and months, I've completely forgotten about the rest of the game, all I've done all day everyday is atma atma atma atma atma atma, I almost quit the game earlier because I was in such terrible despair over this. My boyfriend has finally convinced me to just give up because the system is broken and (as he put it) the devs are complete idiots to think that I don't deserve anything for the work I put it.

I'm sure there are many people out there who've had even worse luck. They probably aren't playing anymore.

I can't believe people still make threads about atma.
If you don't like it there are other ways to get better weapons.

Doing the books for Animus is faaar worse than doing some fates for atmas (and I swear fates are the worst idea anyone has ever had)
I'd rather do 100 fates, than sitting at the same spot for 3 hours doing nothing but waiting for ONE fate to spawn.
And you need to do this 3 times for each book.

If I got to decide, they should remove fates from this game. It's a nice idea on paper, but SE are forcing them upon us. We don't like being lower level out in the open world killing monsters with no fatal mechanics or nothing exciting.
Whoever got the idea that FATES might be fun for players should never share anything that pops into their head :((

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Doing the books for Animus is faaar worse than doing some fates for atmas (and I swear fates are the worst idea anyone has ever had)
I'd rather do 100 fates, than sitting at the same spot for 3 hours doing nothing but waiting for ONE fate to spawn.
And you need to do this 3 times for each book.

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The only thing that would need to be done there would be to change it from specific fates to something like "clear 10 FATEs in <insert zone name>". If 10 is not enough the make the number bigger.

FATEs are fine within the context of its original intent: leveling content. The issues started when the devs began to gate content and now a facet of progression through FATEs.

Even if you ignore the issues that a large number of people have with getting them, it only makes sense to ease the process along with everything else. As the average/max item level increases and as other steps are made easier or shorter to obtain things of similar or higher levels, then so too should atma.

When they changed out the tomestones in 2.2, zenith became much easier to obtain since mythology was both uncapped and more plentiful. At the same time, other equipment of similar level was also easier, and there was more overall obtainable (Second Coil).

In 2.3 they drastically increased mythology output and also added things which have made obtaining level 100 and 110 equipment easier (Syrcus Tower, hunts). This has actually put atma in a bit of an odd spot, because the animus step was made shorter due to the mythology cost of books while the atma step remained the same. Not only that, but due to hunts and Syrcus Tower it's also much easier to get a Gerolt's masterwork weapon and upgrade it.

If they keep it where it is, it will only continue to get further behind current content until literally no one bothers with relic weapons and atma at all. So while it's in an odd place now, it's almost certain it will be alleviated, and soon.

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Originally Posted by Madruck

To compare Ragnorok Online to FF14, WoW or any hardline MMO as these is a poor argument as read about the game online. RO is F2P....and I promise that these mechanics that plagued those players lead to its downfall as well. If you are truly going to compare a game to this....try Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 which is based clearly on Low RNG.....but Diablo is not WoW or is it SWTOR or FF14 in styles of gameplay. SE dropped the ball on game design and numerous posts for the past 6 months in regards to the subject about people stating the same thing as I am is clear proof and thats all that needs to be said!

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She mean Ragnarok Online 2002-2007
0.01% droprate for cards while paying sub.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

I think you just shown us the next upgrade path for our relics...

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Maybe with hard modes. The common thread between the quests seems to be revisiting old content that wasn't necessarily hard and adding more things to do as they progressed.

Zenith - 900 myth for Mists
Atma - 12 Atma from FATEs
Animus - 13500 myth for 9 books (leves/FATEs/dungeons/enemies)
Novus - 1500 myth on Inks for sphere scroll, collect 75 Alexandrites (you know the ways) and infuse 75 materia

Judging from how they've said it will take a long time to finish the next level, I have a feeling it might be something like the Novus path but with Primals involved since that's the only old content that hasn't been used.

I've read some Japanese theories that they might have some kind of demimateriatype item that uses desynthesis to infuse into the weapon (Atma from desynth?) or even involve hunt mobs. Or maybe all of the above? Whatever it is, it's going to be a huge time sink.

Given the opportunity to change atma, I would just add an alternative route. Leave the fate grind in place (although perhaps shift it to say if you have a class with the zenith weapon then the fate can drop atma, irrespective of class used so we can level alts) and add means to get atma from dungeon content.

I'd suggest that some HM bosses could drop one at a 50% drop rate (Ifrit, Mog, Titan, Garuda, Ultima), T1-5 could drop at 75% and then have the final from CT/ST at 50%. That will speed up the progression, but frankly, is atma really that good? It wouldn't exactly break the game since soldiery weapons are so easy to come by.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

Shouldn't keeping players happy be the second most important thing behind keeping players subscribing?

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Have you played FFXI? (sincere question)

so far from what i seen, between both 11 and 14, SE seems intent on wasting people's time and lives.........i gave up on atma farming for the most part and do no more than 10 fates a day. atma is part of the reason why i took several month breaks in between (and yes unsubbed during those times). i dont mind wasting time learning mechanics and beating hard fights, but wasting time because of sheer luck

They could add all atma crystals to the fates in Mor Dhona, would be more lore friendly than you might think.

I didn't really mind the atma grind that much, but I would still prefer a different approach to obtaining the crystals, or at least increased drop rate.

I spent a LOT of time camping NMs back in FFXI and again in FFXIV 1.0, so I'm accustomed to the no-drop disappointment. I also didn't focus exclusively on it until getting all 12. I did other things, too.

If I could have some time spent with the dev team, I'd ask them why "frustration" instead of "fun?"

Just an idea I had at work, but why not make twelve NM's one for each atma. Each NM would have a repop time and hp that would place it between A/B ranks, but could still be a challenge to solo. Also while we're at it make multiple atma of the same type stack.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Just an idea I had at work, but why not make twelve NM's one for each atma. Each NM would have a repop time and hp that would place it between A/B ranks, but could still be a challenge to solo. Also while we're at it make multiple atma of the same type stack.

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Just don't make them respawn every 2-3 hours like some FATEs. Instead, make the FATE invisible to the map (Like the player-spawned hildibrand fate, or Odin.)

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Originally Posted by OdinEon

If they change atma now, what about all the people that struggled to get it? Dont you think they would cry out then?
I only have 3 but I hope they don't change it, so when I do get them all I have the same sense of accomplishment they had.

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This game has been nerfed multiple times so...I wouldn't be surprised and I hope they do it.
Problem is that this whole thing is a tedium, and it's not fun...at all. It's boring.
It's not fair that x persons got their Atma is a few days, and other people are literally...months into the whole FATE session. It
shouldn't be a snoozefest. They need an additional Atma gain route. Maybe do x amount of dungeons or something for a piece.
I've personally stopped doing it, but I feel a lil sad because now I'm so far behind everything with just my Zenith...if Atma didn't screw it up for me
I'd be on Novus by now. I'm still going to get Levi/Ramuh's or whoevers weapon for an equal but still.
Oh and please stop shoving FATE's everywhere while you're at it, I am getting ill from it all now...I did enough in 2.0, no more!
-___-;;;

One thing i would like to see changed is the requirement for having the weapon equipped. I think as long as you have a zenith in your inventory, ATMA should drop. That way you can level other characters while grinding it.

My favorite opinion is from people who don't want the system changed, but always start off: "I got all my atma in a single day! Gosh, people are so lazy!"

You are not the majority of the people who have atma farmed. You got lucky. That's not an accomplishment.

I'm working on my Novus right now, but it took me a whole week of farming FATEs to get one set, and that was doing nothing but logging in and doing FATEs for several hours every single day. I'm by far not the unluckiest either.
Would I be mad if they nerfed it or at least buffed the drop rate? Hell no. It might give me incentive to work on another weapon. But as you keep adding steps to the process, unless you make the initial barrier to entry more attractive, no one is gonna bother.

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Originally Posted by Madruck

To compare Ragnorok Online to FF14, WoW or any hardline MMO as these is a poor argument as read about the game online. RO is F2P....and I promise that these mechanics that plagued those players lead to its downfall as well.

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The Korean RPG Ragnarok Online, which is 10+ years old, was not originally a F2P. It was for a very long time, a P2P MMORPG. The low RNGs did not kill the game. At this time in MMO history, MMOs were having issues with dealing with inflation, especially MMOs that became popular and survived for many years. A newer player was having problems joining Ragnarok Online 2 years later on because items would cost in the near millions as Gil sinks at this time were not well developed and understood extremely well because most MMORPGs at this time did not last many years. Ragnarok Online was able to destroy items efficiently using its +5 to +10 upgrading process but it couldn't destroy zenny effectively to keep inflation down, making it too hard for newer players. Even with the deterring of newer players, Ragnarok Online still exists today and its still very enjoyable with some very fantastic BGM.

The low drop rates at 0.01% and 0.02% rarely deterred us and nor was it the downfall of the game. During this time, it was commonplace for MMOs to have extremely low drop rates and countless people still played MMORPGs during this time.

I do believe the system needs changed somewhat,
Even a token change would be to once you finish atma once, you have a permanent 5% boost to future drop rates on other atma weps. That Increases 5 percent each time another is completed.
Done it on BLM but the idea of doing it again on smn and sch with such low drop rate has put me off totally.

Would everyone agree that if going forward SE switched back to future upgrades being "challenges" (similar to defeat Hydra, primals, etc.) that there would be no need to ever nerf atma, animus, novus? This way - those three stages could be viewed as the grind necessary to make these "zodiac" weapons less common?

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Would everyone agree that if going forward SE switched back to future upgrades being "challenges" (similar to defeat Hydra, primals, etc.) that there would be no need to ever nerf atma, animus, novus? This way - those three stages could be viewed as the grind necessary to make these "zodiac" weapons less common?

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I would rather a "defeat titan ex 20 times" than a low low chance of an atma, so I'd agree

Sorry i didnt get back to you sooner coldreactive. (On my phone at break). I'd be ok if the fate showed up only if you were close to it, but my idea was more or less no fate; 10-15min respawn nm's that could spawn in and roamed a specific area. Maybe each nm would represent a zodiac creature?

They probably already have a pretty good idea for how to change the atma grind to something more reasonable. The rationale for the atma grind remaining all this time was that there is some subset of gamers who actually enjoyed the grind and that their sense of accomplishment would be diminished if the grind were struck down too quickly. On the other hand, that same complaint can be made to some degree by any of these particular gamers on the odd number patches. For a very short time, I was one of the people requesting that Twintania not get nerfed during the 2.1 to 2.2 transition. Why? Because I had a preconception that they would do their best to make the challenges of the game withstand the test of time, or at least until the first expansion. I had played World of Warcraft and experienced first hand the raising of item levels and level caps for ten years, and I was understandably tired of that form of progression.

So I think the reason they didn't nerf the Atma grind is because of a misconception on the part of Yoshida as to what kind of gamer wanted the challenge to stick and their reasons. That some subsection of players may have grown tired of equipment treadmills after experiencing over ten years of MMORPGs almost exclusively using that model did not occur to him.

Well seems bit to much asking people grind 24/7 because i think grinding in mmo's end of time.
Even world of warcraft WOD Beta checked out Garrison (housing) crafting won't be really necessary any more
People like just want to have fun reach Level cap get some gear throw dungeons farming or earn points to buy vendors.

I have seen this while been leveling for few days form 30 in 45+ zones met people kept farming for hours and hours and days.
I felt there pain it is unnecessary thing to do i would suggest people to play Wildstar.
If are no lifer with no job or nothing to take care of :D

I enjoyed the atma grind, and intend to do it again too, it really wasn't as bad as people make it out to sound (and for the record, no I didn't get all mine fast, it took me weeks to get them)

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

Shouldn't keeping players happy be the second most important thing behind keeping players subscribing?

Of course I might be wrong, but I can't imagine anyone enjoying farming Atma with the way it currently works, and if they aren't having fun, why would they keep subscribing?

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OP says they aren't ranting but all I hear is:
http://mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/...3007-7CQXS.gif

Assuming that the drop rate were to be improved, the fact that this game uses a true RNG algorithm could make it possible for some people to take longer than others to gain the Atma they need for their Relic. Which is why you read/hear stories of crafters with high percentages of success still failing melds/synths/desynths multiple times in a row.

I recall that, prior to the introduction to the Atma grind, that some of the playerbase complained about how easy it was to acquire one's Relic weapon. So they demanded that some sort of a grind be added in to lower the number of "max" Relics out there.

While I don't mind a bit of a grind, I, like many others, do prefer to feel a sense of accomplishment rather than a sense of "it's about fracking time". When it seems that the RNG gods are not with you, you begin to feel despair and frustration. I'm not having all that great of luck in getting my Atma for just one Relic, that it is making me debate if I want to do this again for my future relics.

People spend weeks farming mates upgrade gear its stupid.
Games Aion, Tera would now raiding within 2 weeks.
Wow even sooner timeless isle and LFR really flexing i was top 5 in dps a newbie Hunter ^^
i find that this system to much ask form players rater farming dungeon and drop gear and upgrade gear throw company seals something familiar to this :D.

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Originally Posted by Darthana

People spend weeks farming mates upgrade gear its stupid.
Games Aion, Tera would now raiding within 2 weeks.
Wow even sooner timeless isle and LFR really flexing i was top 5 in dps a newbie Hunter ^^
i find that this system to much ask form players rater farming dungeon and drop gear and upgrade gear throw company seals something familiar to this :D.

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maybe the bigger issue is those games making it so easy, people aren't accustomed to working towards their gear anymore, just some food for thought.

In the end, this system isn't for everyone, some will hate it with a vehement passion, others will praise it. I'm rather neutral about it, I don't mind it particularly, it wasn't my favorite thing in the world, but as I've said several times, after farming monster cards on Ragnarok Online (0.01% drop chance) for 10+ years, the whole atma grind thing wasn't a terrible situation at all

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

OP says they aren't ranting but all I hear is:
http://mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/...3007-7CQXS.gif

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I think you see in the OPs post what you want to see so you can do precisely the thing you are so describing without guilt. Otherwise why bring it up?

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think you see in the OPs post what you want to see so you can do precisely the thing you are so describing without guilt. Otherwise why bring it up?

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Some people are prone to start arguments. Best just to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by swordrain

Your time is off by a very large margin. There are many, many, MANY people who are beyond 50+ hours of farming. I used both of my days off today and yesterday, and in total I've gone up over 900 fates since I started atma farming, and I've only got two to show for it. I've done most of these solo. It's been months and months, I've completely forgotten about the rest of the game, all I've done all day everyday is atma atma atma atma atma atma, I almost quit the game earlier because I was in such terrible despair over this. My boyfriend has finally convinced me to just give up because the system is broken and (as he put it) the devs are complete idiots to think that I don't deserve anything for the work I put it.

I'm sure there are many people out there who've had even worse luck. They probably aren't playing anymore.

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If it takes a 1000 hours, would you do it without a reward at the end? If you're going to refute my argument at least take on the main point of it.

Point is, no one would do the Atma grind for 10 hours, 15 hours, 30 hours, 100 hours, or whatever it is, if they didn't get the Atma at the end. You know what that means? Its not fun to do. Why play the game if its not fun? As you said many have bad luck and aren't playing anymore. Luck has little to do with it. Fun has everything to do with it.

If they make the droprates higher. Heck make a fate drop 6 of them 200% of the time. You still wouldn't do it if there was no reward at the end, that means no Weapon, No Seals, No coin, No exp, no achievement credit, nor any lore/story attached. That's where the problem is.

That's where Developers need to ask themselves when adding content:

"Would I or the players want to do this without a reward at the end?"

If the Answer is Yes. Add to the game.

If the Answer is No. Rework the content.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

maybe the bigger issue is those games making it so easy, people aren't accustomed to working towards their gear anymore, just some food for thought.

In the end, this system isn't for everyone, some will hate it with a vehement passion, others will praise it. I'm rather neutral about it, I don't mind it particularly, it wasn't my favorite thing in the world, but as I've said several times, after farming monster cards on Ragnarok Online (0.01% drop chance) for 10+ years, the whole atma grind thing wasn't a terrible situation at all

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The people from FFXI that I see commenting on it are at best saying its "okay" or "bearable." That's coming from people who do far worse grinds, so I suppose things could be worse.

TBH, I think the people who were asking for challenges to be preserved were the same people asking for horizontal progression back in 2.0-2.1 and not really hardcore players. The introduction of atma grind was probably the result of mistaking one kind of gamer for a completely different one based on the preconceptions of the development team. I think every MMORPG gets a bad idea or two implemented at some point, so we can just count atma grind as a badge of honor. :p

I look at it this way, did I enjoy it? I'm in different. I did do it though, I took it from a laid back stance. If I "wasted" some hours, oh well. At least my chocobo got some experience, or at least I hit 50k seals to buy ventures. I all around paced for the first time in 20 years of mmo gaming and it's great and stress free.

The only part of the zodiac saga thus far I had any real issue with was the atma grind. All thore parts were ok - there was known progression and you were able to work towards it - literaly was just a time sink unless you spent time spritibonding for your novus in which case you also had some RNG fun. Atma though was just plain roll a d100 each time you participate in the fate and hope for that 100.

Nope, keep it that way.

At the end of the route to 3.0 where the final form of the Zodiak weapon is released (and supposed to be the most powerful weapon as said in one of the previous live letters), I'll be glad to be one of the few people who actually owns one.

It is a weapon that you know you can keep and upgrade it, unlike other gears that gets outdated with each and coming patches.

Atma should be changed for one reason alone.

When the quest was new, it wasn't uncommon at all for fates to be zerged and downed in a matter of only a few minutes. Now that the quest has been finish by the vast majority of players, it's not uncommon for one person to be soloing the fates, taking sometimes near the full 15 minutes to win.

New people doing the quest have a overwhelming disadvantage versus those who have finished.

A side note, this action... Or lack of action by SE to not change content such as this leads to other negative behavior (see hunts). "Ignore other content now, because when everyone has moved on from this it will be much harder to farm this stuff."

They should be changed, but who knows if they will.

Took me just over 1200 fates to get all 12 atma, but at least I had 50-100 other people slaughtering the fates as I went. Couldn't imagine doing 1200 fates now as solo or maybe 2-3 people with me. The thought of that is nauseating.