Questions about PLD vs. WAR tanking

Don't forget that you don't have to ONLY ws your current target. They generate enmity, rotate it on multiple enemies if you're having trouble.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

@OP

I would suggest sticking with the BLM for a bit now that you have unlocked it. You are in desperate need of a new perspective and greater understanding of how the mechanics of the game work. What the BLM initially did was fine and good play (though obviously his attitude could use work). You need to understand what it is like to play other classes as your recommendations and concerns are completely out of whack with how the community will expect you to play later on.

I don't say this with the intention of insulting. I mean it as very real advice. You aren't ready to tank this game yet, at least not until you understand the methods and tactics that the community have developed to beat the various fights. Sleep is never used (besides WP gimmick runs), personally I call out BLM's that use it in dungeons and tell them to stop slacking and aoe more. You criticize him for not using convert, which convert is a level 30 skill with Halatali being a level 23 max dungeon. He couldn't even use it. Everything you said in your first post just showed how little you actually know about the game.

As for how to deal with aoe? Both PLD and WAR have all the tools they need at all levels to perform their job. Granted it sucks that PLD is stuck with flash/riot spam on packs but it does work even against overnuking BLM's when used properly and sufficiently, at all levels. Flash yourself dry at the start then do 2-3 riots per flash depending on how hate is looking.

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Oh, I meant the ability to switch from Astral Fire to Umbral Ice, not Convert. I'm thinking of FFXI >_< I meant Transpose. And I do know how to rotate with those on THM/BLM since my first character Naraku Diabolos. No, he was trying to hit all the monsters with Fire II to damage them. It draws too much hate if he did that. He needed to focus on the main monster who I was attacking. At Lv20, Fire II is not needed. I rarely use it myself and you do way more damage and attack faster if you just use Fire.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

You just made my point. OP is not knowledgeable enough about the classes or the game to be dictating to others how they should play. That is ok. None of us were when we started out. Just meant we had to take a passive position until we learned what things are called and how the people have come to play the game. Then we were able to become teachers.

and @ Whisky

As someone who has leveled every dps job in the game and both tanks, and working on healers I would respectfully disagree. Sleep is never beneficial if you want a smooth, fast run. AOE is perfectly viable at all levels it is available. And I have seen thousands of pulls go bad and/or take 10 times as long to kill in lowbie dungeons because the blm wouldn't aoe. The biggest problem is that dps and healers (during down time) are not aggressive enough in doing damage. When they are aggressive the runs go smooth as butter. Heck I saw a post on Reddit yesterday where consensus was agreed, you can not nuke and be a good healer or you can nuke and be a great one. Your example is just an example of players that are just too timid or undergeared for the content they are doing.

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No, using Sleep on monsters that chain agro together is actually a GOOD thing. It stops excess damage onto the tank so you can focus on killing one monster at a time. AOE is NOT viable in all situations, especially lower level dungeons. Plus AOE does less damage because the damage is spread out amongst the group of monsters, whereas using Fire I on ONE monster at a time does MORE damage. I also rotate between my classes so I can utilize all of my gear, and I level everything evenly. Now that I just got all of my jobs unlocked for my DoW and DoM, I got my DoL to Lv30 and now I am working on my DoH to get them to Lv30. Want to know why? So I can make gear for my character's battling classes at Lv30 to Lv35. That way when I get my battling classes to Lv35, they will have good gear. It saves a ton of money. I am taking my precious time with the game and I don't blow through it like a ton of other people do. I know what I am doing, thank you very much. It's people who don't formalize strategies on how they want to play, is where their oversight gets the best of them and they get way too arrogant towards others. I for one have planned out what I am doing with my character Hayley Westenra. I blew through content on my Legacy 1.0 character and was not satisfied with what I did, which is why I made 3 characters (2 females, one other male) to test things out on and to have fun. Unlike most people, I only have to pay $10, so I'm going to take my damn time and play at my own pace. I have a family, a job, and school. I'm not some person who is living in their parents' basement.

EDIT: Not to sound harsh, but sorry :( Plus since I rotate through all of my classes and jobs, I don't quite remember all of the character's abilities for each of the classes/jobs, so I'm sorry if I got Convert and Transpose mixed up. Plus after playing FFXI for many years, I get confused with their abilities as well.

even at low levels pld/glas can hold AoE aggro decently (hint: spam flash). It's more efficient to utilize AoE damage when there are multiple mobs, potency is increased by fold based on the number of enemies engaged, better start to learn how to hold AoE aggro early coz that's how the higher level content are played.

pld can tank multiple target no problem, apart from spamming lots of flash, u should keep switching targets, and plan a bit on which of your attack skills hit the which mob. once you get used to this, you wont have problem to keep aggro from multiple target on pld

Well, the reason why ppl think that war is better than pala is because SE committed an "error". War has always the right tank stance while pala receives first the Sword Oath instead of the Shield Oath. So, until you received the Shield Oath, your work will almost always be worse than a war. That's why in some fates they can "steal" your enemie. So, unless you aren't doing flash + fast blade + riot blade and flash you aren't doing anything wrong. You just should use fast blade + savage blade and rage of halone when it's with one mob or two.

i find ,lately, that its not the tanks that should be blamed for losing hate its the dps. atm im trying to level war it it seems there is always one that attacks the secondary mob, even when you are marking them. i honestly think they do it just so they have a reason to complain

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Boom

i find ,lately, that its not the tanks that should be blamed for losing hate its the dps. atm im trying to level war it it seems there is always one that attacks the secondary mob, even when you are marking them. i honestly think they do it just so they have a reason to complain

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I think so as well. Some DPS have AOE attacks, but they need to focus on one target first. It is logical that Fire does more damage per monster and it is much quicker to take out enemies.

Is this thread to ask about difference between tanking as Paladin vs War or more like to reassure yourself if you are doing things right?
In my opinion, while not as good as Warrior in AoE enmity management, Paladin still has good AoE enmity, at least good enough for any current content.
Paladin should not have any problem maintaining aggro over DPS AoE even in low level dungeon.
Tested this while I level up my Gladiator. I only had problem with enmity when I made mistake in rotating skills and Flash.
The only possible scenarios you might have problem with enmity are:
1. DPS attacking before you pull
2. Healer overhealing

Regarding your "logic" Fire > Fire 2, well ... Fire 2 is definitely better than Fire when there are at least 2 enemies present, which is like the majority of mobs group in instance.
Simple maths:
Fire = 170 potency
Fire 2 = 100 potency
Against 2 mobs,
Fire = still 170 potency
Fire 2 = 100x2 = 200 potency

Well, it's not quite that simple. Fire and Fire 2 have cast times. 170/2.5 = 68 (Fire); 100 / 3 = 33.333~ (Fire 2). So at 2 mobs they break even(ish), at 3 Fire 2 is better. However, you also get more casts of Fire 1 before having to switch to Umbral. I didn't read the thread though so I might be completely off topic here.

BLM theorycrafting aside...

The THM in your party wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just a jerk. You insisting that it was impossible for you to gain threat over more than 1 target at a time would easily incite the rage of many DPS players who aren't patient or kind. These problems will melt away as you get all of your skills and everyone becomes a little better at their class through leveling up, but tanking pre-40 as a GLD/PLD can be a little sketchy if you are not experienced and your DPS is experienced.

General skill advice would be to body pull with Flash x3 or so, RB some of your mana back, check your enmity and apply a RoH combo as needed, flash a few more times, etc. If you focus on managing enmity at lower levels and pushing yourself to hold enmity over any a-hole dps that comes your way, you will be an excellent tank when you get to level 50.

I won't pat you on the back and say you were completely right here, because if I was a THM in a dungeon and my GLD said I wasn't allowed to use one of my most powerful DPS spells on 3+ targets because it was impossible for them to hold enmity my reaction would probably not be, "Oh, cool." It would likely be to explain to you that if you drain all your mana holding enmity over me each pull its fine because if you front-load your enmity generation with flash you can spend time RBing it back up before the next pull starts.

Iunno.