iLevels: Why I'm hoping they aren't raised in 2.4

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Originally Posted by Felessan

You play game slowly. But you should understand that there are people who play this game fast. People already complains that "there is nothing in patch for them" as they are at ilvl110 and patch brings literally nothing for them for next 3 months.
How do you explain another 3 month delay of actual content for people who have their main spec geared to ilvl110, who cleared SCoB 2 months ago and who earns several millions gil per week and thus not really interested in you playing "catch-up for fun" game.

I don't want to be rude - but if you really want to pass through SCoB without echo - you always have an option to gather like-minded people and turn off echo in raid (yes, you can do it). It's not a reason why others should wait for ever singly person who wants to do *hardcore* raids in *casual* manner.

People already swallowed that after a "hardcore" patch (with all those new gear and ilvl increase) follows casual and catch-up patch for those who are less able and to balance out population before next upgrade. Now you are trying to force onto these people that they should wait in progression not only a mild hardcore crowd, but for casuals as well.

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I do understand, though I will not deny I may not comprehend it completely, as I am not someone who has ever been in the position of having gotten to the end of an MMO and had to play the waiting game for new content, so, being the offered the perspective is helpful, like the carrot and stick metaphor that was offered to me earlier.

And, I would like just to say, I am not expecting SE to not to raise ilevels, nor am I asking them outright not too, my end goal here is not to favor one person over another :) As you have given me the perspective of someone who has been in the position of playing the waiting game in regards to end game, perhaps it help to make my opinion, and that's all it is just opinion, on the matter understood. As a new player, progression combat wise really does seem like it's going by quickly, and that's taking a bit of the fun out of the game for me. I understand why it's being done, so I thought perhaps posting up a reflection on my thoughts on the matter would be food for thought for others. ^_^

In the end, if SE raises the ilevel by a whole, by a little, or none at all in the up coming patches, I will still enjoy the game. I just would like to enjoy the game for as long as possible :)

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Originally Posted by Katie

OP,
You said yourself you enjoy playing the game at your own pace and leasure, which is perfectly fine. But you can't expect to do that and have the game's progression slow enough to get BiS at that same pace. This is two different playstyles.
---There are lots of tools in place to boost and gear a role to be able to participate in current content with each patch for those that do take their time. (Echo, CT, Myth/Soldiery)
---And there is ilevel raises and new gear for those that ever want the best pieces here and now.

For most vet players 6months between ilevel raises is already long, for new players and slow pacers everything prior to the actual best is easily obtainable in a matter of a few hours in a couple weekends.

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Understood.

The wait was pointed out to me earlier in another post, and I think at this point, the reason why it feels quick is simply because I've never gotten to the end before the new beginning, so I've never had to wait like others had.

The problem with the constant increase of ilv is the lack of fights that are tuned for that ilv. When 2.4 comes out, we'll have increased ilv, yet the "hardest" (Ramuh EX) fight outside of SCoB requires an average ilv lower than the max ilv you could have when the game launched a little more than 11 months ago. As well as the addition of more Echo with every patch and easily-obtainable gear that is already considered overkill for 95% of content, power creep is a very real concept and I worry about the game's future.

so what if the next patch didnt raise ilvl but instead added ilvl 110 gear with customizable stats like novus and had materia slots with coil dropping special materia with: enhances the effect of job ability/trait "X"

My only problem with ilvl is that there is nothing to fight when you actually get there. Everyone works for cap, and after taking the path to get there---there's nothing to use that powerful gear for....

*making it easier to farm the stuff you cleared doesn't count, u_u


EDIT: I guess there's Savage mode but it's hard to find a group interested in working harder for a reward you get in normal modes. No one i know wants titles >_>

Actually, 6 months is really fast when you have bad luck in coil and the pieces you need never drop and when they do you get outlotted by the other person that needs them too. This is me. :(

I've been doing 2nd coil since it came out and I only have TWO pieces for my main (3rd one was tombstone and sands but now with hunts that doesn't even matter). While everyone else in my static has 4 or more, some even almost done... I always joke with my static that I'll see healing stuff drop again by the time 2.4 comes out and now it seems more like a reality. lol
Static leader is gonna change rules for 3rd coil so everyone can have something and not get screwed over by bad luck but for now... yeah. I'm screwed. :(

There is a thing called "horizontal progression" that would solve most solve problems, but I guess the WoW audience playing the game wouldn't like it.

The problem with this thread, is the exact opposite thread exists with people complaining about it being too easy to gear up. So you see there is really no way to make everyone happy.

Personally 2.3 has made it 100x easier to catch up than it used to be. You can run a lvl 50 dungeon and get i90 drops out the buttz, as well as how easy it is to collect myth. One could have a full myth set in about 2-3 weeks of casual play.

And to everyone saying there is no horizontal progression, well I am sorry you don't like huntz, but that is exactly what horizontal progression looks like.

i worked hard for my il88 WHM(im held back by one ring, il55, everything else is i90 or higher) and i like the grind, as healer, its always difficult in endgame. i want more stuff, just so i dont have to wait as long once i finsh the coils, ive only done up to t4, attempted t5 but the party fell to pieces immediately, leaving me and one dps left, didnt even get to the fight.

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Originally Posted by Katie

My only problem with ilvl is that there is nothing to fight when you actually get there. Everyone works for cap, and after taking the path to get there---there's nothing to use that powerful gear for....

*making it easier to farm the stuff you cleared doesn't count, u_u

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Exactly, the main source of getting items with lower ilv than BC is obtained by farming ilv 55 dungeons and ilv 70 dungeons that, aside from being fun and well-done, do not feel like ilv 70 (and coil-equivalent ilv gear by Hunting, something that requires zero skill). Now 2.4 rolls around, and we get better gear that only serves its purpose in new Coil, but the majority of the playerbase does not do new coil, so it's the equivalent of a real life setting where you receive better education yet keep receiving tests that are made for a first-grader.

honestly, it is a little intimidating to go into the endgame content the first time with people who have considerable experience running those things. and who have done it so much already.

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

honestly, it is a little intimidating to go into the endgame content the first time with people who have considerable experience running those things. and who have done it so much already.

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Honestly my biggest issue at the moment is finding people to farm Leviathan with. I used to see PF groups for him all the time, but not so much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Odett

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realistically they should test it out with 3rd coil. make it so that the last turn of the 3rd coil requires players to be very close to max gear of the patch to down it. even with crafted/tome bought items it would require some more work and time to get the last and final turn to finally get downed. they should also add new extreme dungeons that makes use of our overpowered gear. maybe a savage primal fights that grants 2.4 ilvl accessories that go along with 3rd coil to open up options to new builds and customization.

tbh im getting tired of farm coil for new gear and be overpowered for everything else...

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Originally Posted by Wobble

I agree with this, they need to stop the ilevel for a while and let the gear have some time to live and the players some time to get it. I'm to the point now that I figure why bother since by next patch or two it will be worthless anyway?

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It won´t be useless. You need that gear for next Content. This is called "Gear Progression". Or you want to stick in ilvl90 gear and be like "screw Gear upgrade, in 3 Months it will be worthless anyway". Hmmm good luck in Coil 3 then.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

If they don't raise item level, then Third Coil will be clear once and players will un-sub until 2.6　（no gear to grind for).

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2.4 will be the last coil, 2.5 the last of CT ending the storyline from 1.0 regarding the calamity.

2.6 will probably be 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Electrowitch

It won´t be useless. YOu need that gear fpr next Content. This is called "Gear Progression". Or you want to stick in ilvl90 gear and be like "scre Gear upgrade, in 3 Months it will be worthless anyway". Hmmm good luck in Coil 3 then.

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Well, you CAN do everything under SCoB in ilv 90. We know that gear progression is, but it keeps arriving at a speed faster than new-gear-content is being developed, so it results in a situation where the new gear is only "appropriate" for one dungeon, and makes the majority of the current content we have even easier than it already is. The second best gear in the game right now, ilv100, is obtained from farming dungeons that are tuned to ilv 55 and 70, which is considerably lower than ilv 100. 2.4 introduces even better gear, (115 would be the lowest possible ilv, but I'm willing to bet tome gear will be 120 and TCoB 130), yet you do ilv 55 dungeons to obtain it.

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Originally Posted by Legacy_Wolfwood

tbh im getting tired of farm coil for new gear and be overpowered for everything else...

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Exactly. Even ilv100 is overpowered for everything else, and ilv will just keep going up. And no, purposely reducing your own ilv is not a solution, that's called "artificial difficulty".

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Originally Posted by LillithCale

I've never played an MMO with ilevels before, so all of this is pretty new to me. Is this a common problem with a ilevel based systems?

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This is the exact problem with ilvls and why they should never, ever, ever be used in an MMO. For reference, XI's gear could last you almost a decade but at the same time provide you with 100 options to change it if you wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

I agree that they need to slow it down. I only started a month ago and have only just hit 50 on a character. However. I'm about i50, and getting to i100 looks like a huge challenge. The concern with the constant raise on gear is just that - people who have just started are miles off the curve. There should be some focus on horizontal gearing, and balancing the secondary stats a little better so that current players can catch up but experienced players still have something to aim for.

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Join a Hunt LS, you will be full i90 in 3-6 hours and i100 in about 4-6 weeks of playing 3 hours a week. Or, if you have 500k, have someone craft you a set of i90.

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Originally Posted by Odett

The second best gear in the game right now, ilv100, is obtained from farming dungeons that are tuned to ilv 55 and 70... 2.4 introduces even better gear, (115 would be the lowest possible ilv, but I'm willing to bet tome gear will be 120 and TCoB 130), yet you do ilv 55 dungeons to obtain it.

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^this LOL this right here SE xD wtf is this lol

Odett brings a valid point

SE should at least make it so i120 (if thats the next step) is obtainable via the new tombs but in content aimed towards i100 dungeons. (i110 is hunts and SCoB, i100 is from all the sold going around like candy and ST). lets be honest. the i120 gear will only be beneficial to the TCoB players. i120 will just make EVERYTHING already implemented much easier (in terms of stats. ilvl=/=Skill). SE will probably nerf BCoB so much more that people can just lol through T5 without even trying and then get smashed in SCoB until SE will slowly put in Echo to help them in there.

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Originally Posted by Legacy_Wolfwood

^this LOL this right here SE xD wtf is this lol

Odett brings a valid point

SE should at least make it so i120 (if thats the next step) is obtainable via the new tombs but in content aimed towards i100 dungeons. (i110 is hunts and SCoB, i100 is from all the sold going around like candy and ST). lets be honest. the i120 gear will only be beneficial to the TCoB players. i120 will just make EVERYTHING already implemented much easier (in terms of stats. ilvl=/=Skill). SE will probably nerf BCoB so much more that people can just lol through T5 without even trying and then get smashed in SCoB until SE will slowly put in Echo to help them in there.

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Ya he brought up a good point. New Tome Gear will for sure be obtainable with a new kind of Tomes but it will be added to low level Dingeons. So actually nothing will change at all unfortunatly. It´s sad

Would anyone be upset if the new update merely raised the I-level of armor from 110 to 115? That seems more reasonable. 90 to 110 simply invalidated older content WAY too quickly.

Then implement a bunch of achievements that when you complete them reward you attribute points (the points you get when you level up). Min maxers would feed off of this even though the increases would be minimal to allow the majority of players to catch-up.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

I agree that they need to slow it down. I only started a month ago and have only just hit 50 on a character. However. I'm about i50, and getting to i100 looks like a huge challenge. The concern with the constant raise on gear is just that - people who have just started are miles off the curve. There should be some focus on horizontal gearing, and balancing the secondary stats a little better so that current players can catch up but experienced players still have something to aim for.

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getting to i100 really isn't a challenge at all, just maybe a little time consuming if you're fresh 50. If you grind out some Myth / Soldiery, you could be i90 very quick depending on how long / often you play.

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Originally Posted by Kazama

This is the exact problem with ilvls and why they should never, ever, ever be used in an MMO. For reference, XI's gear could last you almost a decade but at the same time provide you with 100 options to change it if you wanted to.

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Except, after that decade, it all became questionable with the introduction of iLevels in XI recently. :/

The ilvl increases of late is not much of a concern, in all honesty. They have only been raising them by 20 per 6 months. Not that big of a deal, IMO. The "problem" is just from how it started. We went from i45-55 from when we leveled > i70 with Phil tomes > i90-95 with Myth tomes/Coil. All in one launch patch. That's around 50 ilvl of introduced gear in a single patch, or over one YEARs worth of patch updates currently. It started off a little too high, but in reality, it's still far from problematic. Namely when you consider the fact that they're ok with how it is so far, as the older gear is still relatively unique by design and can be used as glamour if desired.

Eh? The reason many people play this game is for progression.

Progression doesn't exist if you cannot "progress" your character as new patches come out. If iLvl did not increase, then that would practically negate all of the new content that they release as releasing new content with the same iLvl as the previous patch means a side grade at best, for those that have been keeping up to date with the patches. Look at Ramuh and ST right now as a perfect example - aside from secondary jobs, this content is immediately rendered pointless to those that had been doing SCoB when it was released.

In addition to this, it really does not take long to play catch up during the odd-numbered patches (2.1/2.3). You practically skip over half of the gear progression that many of us did in the early days (with Darklight etc) and can farm CT1 endlessly, get Myth gear endlessly, and in the meanwhile get i100 soldiery gear. Hell - they even give you the item to upgrade it to end game raid level gear fast enough (without actually raiding)...

On top of this, if you keep the iLvl at the same level, you run into the opposite problem to what you are describing. I hate to use FFXI as an example, however for this it is relevant. The gear cap for FFXI was lvl 75 for a large number of years. Once the level cap was raised again, all that gear that people "worked extremely hard and grinded for years" to get, was rendered useless or circumstantial at best. This is also coming from a game where one pair of pants that say a Warrior could equip, would be used for a completely different purpose as another pair of pants. In this game, the gear system does not work like that - and is rather linear. Generally if you are increasing your iLvl in that slot then it is an upgrade (keyword - generally). If you were to cap the iLvl for even another 3 months - all those that are at end game raid level can really do is "get lots of gear that looks different" and it halts all of their progression.

Sure, once again this game does have a multi-class system; there is very little point (aside from vanity) for any of these people to do content if it is not upgrading their main class.

While you may be struggling to "catch up" (and honestly with a patch like 2.3 that practically feeds i100-i110 gear to you, I can't understand how you can be), you have to think of the many other players that would be sitting around waiting for new content with not a whole lot to do.

So I guess what I am saying is, just because you are a little behind the 8-ball, doesn't mean that you should halt other people's progression.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

The ilvl increases of late is not much of a concern, in all honesty. They have only been raising them by 20 per 6 months. Not that big of a deal, IMO. The "problem" is just from how it started. We went from i45-55 from when we leveled > i70 with Phil tomes > i90-95 with Myth tomes/Coil. All in one launch patch. That's around 50 ilvl of introduced gear in a single patch, or over one YEARs worth of patch updates currently. It started off a little too high, but in reality, it's still far from problematic. Namely when you consider the fact that they're ok with how it is so far, as the older gear is still relatively unique by design and can be used as glamour if desired.

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You have to remember that game launch wasn't a fresh launch - it was a "re-launch".
Many people from 1.0 were already at i70 the moment the game was released.

The jump to i90 was pretty much required, as 1.0 players had to have something to work toward.

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Originally Posted by Rex

getting to i100 really isn't a challenge at all, just maybe a little time consuming if you're fresh 50. If you grind out some Myth / Soldiery, you could be i90 very quick depending on how long / often you play.

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Seriously? I've missed something major then. I usually manage about 90 minutes a night and I'm i52. I figured the first thing to do was get my relic weapon, or is that wrong?

In any case, there are arguments on both side. Planning my gear progression, it is simple (great for those inexperienced in MMOs) - go for the highest number I can. However, part of me wishes I were faced with the sort of questions I post earlier about secondary stats. How high do I want Parry? Will swapping determination for critical help etc. I think there's room there for a switch, rather than only asking "is this ilvl higher than the other?".

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Originally Posted by Kydi

Seriously? I've missed something major then. I usually manage about 90 minutes a night and I'm i52. I figured the first thing to do was get my relic weapon, or is that wrong?

In any case, there are arguments on both side. Planning my gear progression, it is simple (great for those inexperienced in MMOs) - go for the highest number I can. However, part of me wishes I were faced with the sort of questions I post earlier about secondary stats. How high do I want Parry? Will swapping determination for critical help etc. I think there's room there for a switch, rather than only asking "is this ilvl higher than the other?".

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Is this iLvL higher than the other is only the start. For BiS you will be taking into account secondary stats (meet accuracy caps, maximize highest weighted secondary stat, etc) though it is still very limited.

As for your progression, getting your relic is a good first step. Weapon gives you the best gains when it comes to your primary stat. One thing to keep in mind when people say "get to i90 very quick" it is in part because when the game launched it took several weeks to get that, now it can be done in a week or less if you are efficient. W/ 90 min a day you should be able to get that in a week or so.

@OP

Your experience may have been like this because, If im right February was in the middle of a more "casual" patch. You probably hit 50 when the SCoB came out thus raising ilvls and you were just a fresh 50. I had left this game shortly after 2.2 released and came back in 2.3 which was luck because that gave me 3+ months to gear. However if I had comeback in 2.4 instead I would be looking at a situation much like yourself. I would be far behind and everyone else would be progressing to 110+ and id be sitting at i90. Id have 30+ ilvls to catch up and it would probably turn me off. I honestly think that if a new player is going join the game i think it should be done right before an odd numbered patch so that they could get 50 on said patches release. instead of joining on the release of an even numbered when they will ahve to contend finding lower ilvl parties in a patch the is concerned with raising max ilvl.

I hope that came out right

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Originally Posted by Kydi

Seriously? I've missed something major then. I usually manage about 90 minutes a night and I'm i52. I figured the first thing to do was get my relic weapon, or is that wrong?

In any case, there are arguments on both side. Planning my gear progression, it is simple (great for those inexperienced in MMOs) - go for the highest number I can. However, part of me wishes I were faced with the sort of questions I post earlier about secondary stats. How high do I want Parry? Will swapping determination for critical help etc. I think there's room there for a switch, rather than only asking "is this ilvl higher than the other?".

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4-8 hours if you do hunts (Less if you get logs). An A-Rank =20 seals and 80 Myth. Kill 20 for full credit and that is your entire i90 set and enough Myth for both Relic and Zenith and will cap your Sol or buy an i100 piece.

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Originally Posted by Rex

Except, after that decade, it all became questionable with the introduction of iLevels in XI recently. :/

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No argument there. It happened a lot earlier than that with the level cap increase which sent like half the player base packing.

As much as I agree with the OP, I believe one reason for wanting gear longevity is due the lockout system.

New gear is introduced for new content, cool, get one chance at it once week if your "lucky," not cool (seeing the same loot drop weekly that we already have gets old -_-). Once a new patch is introduced, the embargo is lifted on the previous, and you're given a chance to catch up... rinse and repeat.

I honestly think lockouts aren't necessary, we will continue to play the game despite SE's fears of leaving. Without lockouts, we can actually get use of the gear for the entire span of the patch rather than being "blessed" with the chance to catch up when the gear is already obsolete once the next patch is introduced. Or, maybe that's just me.

I think without lockout, we'd just have, "SCoB: T1 burn strat 4m run for gear". It'd be like that for every turn, every week then offline until lockout is lifted. Not much different from now.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I think without lockout, we'd just have, "SCoB: T1 burn strat 4m run for gear". It'd be like that for every turn, every week then offline until lockout is lifted. Not much different from now.

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There needs to be more raids, not just coils. I know a lot of people who do coils in a day, then have nothing to do for the rest of the week because everything else in the game is trivial or for casuals that a lot of people don't have interest in.

Given that we know that 2.4 will be the end of the Binding Coil story arc, I believe the iLevel will finally reach its max point. Afterwards, people will be able to gear up as they want with as much time as they want. As a game developer, I speculate that after 2.4 vertical progression will halt (gear-wise that is) and horizontal progression will be introduced. The next step of actual vertical progression would come with the level cap raise and not from gear iLevel (giving players more time to work their way up the ladder).

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I think without lockout, we'd just have, "SCoB: T1 burn strat 4m run for gear". It'd be like that for every turn, every week then offline until lockout is lifted. Not much different from now.

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Even with this, I think people would still play since it could actually encourage leveling other jobs to raid with. More people would have a chance to play within our free company as well since we would be able to mix in experienced players with those that may need some assistance. I can see the party finder having tons of those posts, though.

Personally I hope the next patch is horizontal with new challenges, but with the same rewarded ilv. Instead of higher stats, make the incentive be bonuses to specific skill damages, slight GCD adjustment (x% chance of haste for 10 seconds on hit,) you see where I'm going with this.

Every other major patch for an ilvl increase works great. That way the dev team can take turns trying to cater to the hardcore and casuals without giving too much attention to one group. OP, if you want to play casually, that's fine, but don't suggest that they slow progression for all of us just because you can't catch up. That's being a bit unfair :p

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Originally Posted by Velox

Given that we know that 2.4 will be the end of the Binding Coil story arc, I believe the iLevel will finally reach its max point. Afterwards, people will be able to gear up as they want with as much time as they want. As a game developer, I speculate that after 2.4 vertical progression will halt (gear-wise that is) and horizontal progression will be introduced. The next step of actual vertical progression would come with the level cap raise and not from gear iLevel (giving players more time to work their way up the ladder).

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The Binding Coil will end, but we'll get another endgame raid in the expansion with an ilvl increase along with (more than likely) a level increase. All signs point to the expansion being released after 2.5.