How "Vote to Dismiss" is designed encourages abuse.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

So ... you agree systems impact how people behave, and then discuss ways systems discourage or encourage behavior. You agree but keep arguing.

It seems like what you meant to say was that you don't think the system should be changed much, because you feel that the majority of time, vote kick is not abused, and that additional punishments and restrictions would go overboard. That's a good point, but you made a generalization about systems not being able to encourage or discourage behavior, which was wrong.

Also, now you're aware that people grind in MMOs but also seek the path of least resistance to minimize effort (through things like vote kick abuse). This is why systems have to be designed with consideration for the types of behavior they motivate and allow.

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You misread what I said. I separated the "system" and the "consequences" for violating elements of the system and stated that it is the consequences that encourage/discourage behavior and not the system itself. In short, it is not the vote kick system that dictates my behavior, but rather "what will happen if I am kicked". The vote kick system as a whole isn't encouraging abuse, the lack of significant consequence to being kicked and the occasional ability to completely nullify this consequence is encouraging abuse. Therefore, the issue isn't "the game is encouraging abuse!" or "the vote kick system encourages abuse!"... it's "being kicked doesn't punish people enough. This encourages abuse of the vote kick system!"

Additionally, not everyone takes the path of least resistance at every opportunity. Some, like myself, take what I will call the path of enough resistance. I can handle a few extra minutes in that dungeon, or a few extra days to get my Novus. Some can't, and that's your point. What amazes me, however, is the people who go through so much effort to decrease their effort that it would have been better if they had just gone along with things at the normal speed :)

Problem solved: queue as a group; you no longer have the privilege to "Vote Dismiss." if you decide to queue up make sure you do so with a full pt- to negate the third wheel.

Be eaz.

If you join duty finder or party finder then it is absolutely normal that there is a vote to dismiss system implemented - how the system is used is fully the responsibility of the group. If you constantly get kicked because other people say that you can't do your job well then there are just 2 choices:
1) think over what they say and how you might get better - it is obvios that something is not right if you get constantly "abused" by party members
2) get friends and do dungeons with them
If someone in your party purposely harass you to get kicked then do him/her a favour and vote kick using the statement "harassment".

don't worry I just got kicked form Titan EX for no reason... It's players who use it to stop other from progressing should have the ban hammer placed upon there trolling heads.....

It should not be an option after clearing an instance.

More importantly, I think there should be a penalty (30min)for someone who is vote kicked multiple times in a given time, lets say 5 times in an hr.

I have seen MANY tanks and healers purposely dc, afk, offline after wipe during ex primals. Which result in us having to abandon and queue again....only to see the same person in the new party I am in. Who knows how often they do this till they get a clearing party.

Still, I don't see why harrassers and cheaters should get away scott free

Sorry for Necroing a dead thread, but I just found this through Google when researching for a friend when she was asking about this topic. Not sure how much has changed here since we last visited this topic, but yeah

There are three choices where it's pretty cut and dry about what they mean: AFK, Offline, and Cheating. First two are very cut and dry and you have to be hard pressed to find a way to spin the third reason.

The Harassment one's key. This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Many will use this as the way to dismiss anyone who they feel is impeding their progress. It's correctly used to weed out asshats. But many can abuse the kick system to get rid of "offending playstyles". Remember that DPS that's TOO low for the dungeon is impossible because of Ilvl requirements for matched parties, which makes that reason just never truly work.

Impeding progress can also mean refusing to actively take part in the dungeon (why you are there), and it's obvious as to why they are doing things the way they are. But it doesn't mean that you can't just kick someone if they are trying to learn a fight on a particular class and you just won't allow them the means of learning the DPS part of the fight if they were always a healer before, even if the DPS told the party. Can't kick a DRG who was once a WHM from the party unless they were doing something to impede normal progress. If the tank CBA to understand newbie status, either by the game telling them or the player, and just GTFOs the dungeon when someone is actively asking for help, then there's clearly an issue with who kicks. If the DRG is just being disruptive and trolling the rest of the party, then you have all the right in the world to take action.

If someone is kicked because they decided to watch a cutscene instead of ESC out of it, that is DEFINITELY reportable, and I heard the GMs DO take action against people doing that.

Now I'm not sure if SE has cracked down on people who abused this system. I personally never actually USE that system unless someone is being a jerk or has connection issues (and I give people the chance to return before I take action since I want to be fair). I only use it as a last resort.

The "Harassment" option needs refining, to where there's a drop down menu or something about the types of common definitions (like extreme profanity, hateful comments, unwanted sexual advances, unwanted speedrunning, obvious disrupting of normal progression, etc.). Wouldn't be foolproof, but would cut down on abuse since it's asking for specifics and the details must match the descriptor.

All in all, it's still better than WoW ever was where anyone could kick for any reason without penalty or consequence. That game is AWFUL for people doing that. This game is the only MMO I've seen so far where it at least attempts to address toxic elitism. Nothing is ever foolproof, and I hope SE saw this thread. Again, sorry for necroing a dead thread here.

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Originally Posted by JD_Shadow

Remember that DPS that's TOO low for the dungeon is impossible because of Ilvl requirements for matched parties, which makes that reason just never truly work.

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leveling duties don't have ilvl requirement. and no, you can't clear Aery with ilvl ~40 dps.

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Originally Posted by JD_Shadow

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The "Harassment" option needs refining, to where there's a drop down menu or something about the types of common definitions (like extreme profanity, hateful comments, unwanted sexual advances, unwanted speedrunning, obvious disrupting of normal progression, etc.). Wouldn't be foolproof, but would cut down on abuse since it's asking for specifics and the details must match the descriptor.

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Harassment does not need more 'refinement' - it's just vague enough to cover all of the things you listed. There is a filter in game for profanity - if they are going around the censors, that's report-able. Unwanted sexual advances falls under ... sexual harassment. Even speed-running falls under harassment, especially if the group has voiced it doesn't wish to (emphasis on group), however, someone who doesn't want to speed-run while the group does, can also be reported for harassment and still be justified - it's very much a two-way street. However, Vote Dismiss is not overseen by GMs - the only time they would look at it is if they are sent a ticket over it and opened an investigation.

I think what we need is more systems to detect the trolling.

AFK is a difficult one, because we can't just punish people for going AFK, we have all had situations where we need to leave for 5 - 10 minutes, and have gotten permission from the party to leave. What I propose is a system that detects if a player is afk, and every 5 minutes, each player is prompted with a message saying "_____ has been afk for longer than _ minutes, would you like to dismiss them? Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

I feel like this is enough, however, SE won't do this because it encourages people to report, leading to more false reports and more work for SE sorting through them.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think what we need is more systems to detect the trolling.

AFK is a difficult one, because we can't just punish people for going AFK, we have all had situations where we need to leave for 5 - 10 minutes, and have gotten permission from the party to leave. What I propose is a system that detects if a player is afk, and every 5 minutes, each player is prompted with a message saying "_____ has been afk for longer than _ minutes, would you like to dismiss them? Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

I feel like this is enough, however, SE won't do this because it encourages people to report, leading to more false reports and more work for SE sorting through them.

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The game already automatically removes you from an instance if you've been AFK for 10 consecutive minutes, as well as gives you warning at 5, 7 and 9 minutes. If you have to AFK repeatedly for minutes, you should really be waiting to run what you are in when you can set aside adequate time for it.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

The game already automatically removes you from an instance if you've been AFK for 10 consecutive minutes, as well as gives you warning at 5, 7 and 9 minutes. If you have to AFK repeatedly for minutes, you should really be waiting to run what you are in when you can set aside adequate time for it.

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Emergencies happen, don't tell me that someone who has been playing this game for 6 year hasn't been allowed just one emergency that they didn't forsee. Whether that is ok should be up to the party, not a system designed by SE. I forgot that players were automatically kicked, but you also get the message warning you of the fact, which I feel should be broadcast to all players, allowing them to act upon it in the event of abuse.

Put it this way: If you are afk for 5 minutes and didn't ask permission, you are kicked and replaced, If you are afk for longer than 10, you are auto kicked anyway.

On top of this, I feel like there should there should be a message similar to the one that I wrote in the event of an autokick, saying ""_____ has been kicked from the party due to inactivity, Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

Wow that's quite the necro.

OP is my old FC leader thanks for the memories.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

AFK is a difficult one, because we can't just punish people for going AFK, we have all had situations where we need to leave for 5 - 10 minutes, and have gotten permission from the party to leave. What I propose is a system that detects if a player is afk, and every 5 minutes, each player is prompted with a message saying "_____ has been afk for longer than _ minutes, would you like to dismiss them? Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

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I don't think there's a need for this. If the player is genuinely AFK, the party is aware of it anyway. But the circumstances where I've actually seen a "vote kick for AFK" initiated are more complex than that.

In one dungeon, the AFKer had set themselves to auto-follow another player, and did nothing in fights.

Another time in Labyrinth of the Ancients, the designated tank for the entire 24-man raid (always Tank B on Japanese servers, no deciding who leads) went completely AFK except for moving themself to the door of the boss room after it was sealed. By any "auto-detection of AFK", they were still there and active. They were just doing absolutely nothing of use.

In either situation a brief input of movement could be enough to break an AFK timer - and even if they don't do that, we wouldn't want to have to wait for an automatic timer to give us permission to kick them when it clearly deserves to happen now. We had to hold up the entire raid anyway, waiting for the loot timer to expire.

Remind me in the Orbonne Monastery 24-man raid dungeon, against the "Thunder god". I'm in a party with the majoirty group from their same world and their same FC.
One of the player yelling at me in alliance chat with the cap lock on its alphabet letters and initiated to vote to dismiss me, by pushing the blame on me that i got "crush marker" which caused my party to wipe out.
I'm the only player on the right side, and saw the marker on my left side where they stacked together and got themselves wipe out.
My first impression is " isn't these marker have to run away. It will begin to chase the marked player for a total of 4 hit ?? "
Thus, I didnt have a chance to say a word during that instant and got a dismiss.
I found so unreasonable to be blame. Well, speak about healthly gaming etiquette of FFXIV..do the community really work ?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Emergencies happen, don't tell me that someone who has been playing this game for 6 year hasn't been allowed just one emergency that they didn't forsee. Whether that is ok should be up to the party, not a system designed by SE. I forgot that players were automatically kicked, but you also get the message warning you of the fact, which I feel should be broadcast to all players, allowing them to act upon it in the event of abuse.

Put it this way: If you are afk for 5 minutes and didn't ask permission, you are kicked and replaced, If you are afk for longer than 10, you are auto kicked anyway.

On top of this, I feel like there should there should be a message similar to the one that I wrote in the event of an autokick, saying ""_____ has been kicked from the party due to inactivity, Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

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Emergencies are not what I am talking about. I mean repeatedly going AFK for 2-3 minutes at a time, maybe 3 or 4 times a run. That's not emergencies, and if they are, you should honestly be more courteous to your team at that point and just leave. You clearly aren't able to actually play the game at that time.

Also, if it's an emergency, why the heck are you worried about getting kicked from a dungeon in the first place?

Ah another post about vote kicking. >.>' I understand people's frustration but in my experience the kind of players that vote kick you are typically the one's you're better off to not play with at all. SE is obviously never going to change their stance on it so why are we festering over something that at the end of the day is kind of petty to focus on in the first place?

I had this happen in Alphascape V4.0, yes the normal mode, and it was DF.
A tank refused to play because of one wipe, right near the end, so actually the party wasn't that bad, and we would have made it the second run, there were no stand-out poor players, just a bit of tripping up over the last phase AoEs.
But this elitist tank was having none of it and refused to budge until we dismissed him. Everyone refused out of principle, we all wanted him to eat the penalty, but he was such a stubborn prick we had to give in.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Ah another post about vote kicking. >.>'

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It's not "another post" It's a bumped one from other 4 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Ah another post about vote kicking. >.>' I understand people's frustration but in my experience the kind of players that vote kick you are typically the one's you're better off to not play with at all. SE is obviously never going to change their stance on it so why are we festering over something that at the end of the day is kind of petty to focus on in the first place?

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This isnt "another" post about vote kicking, this is one of the OG posts about it. Necrod from the depths of almost 5 years ago for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I had this happen in Alphascape V4.0, yes the normal mode, and it was DF.
A tank refused to play because of one wipe, right near the end, so actually the party wasn't that bad, and we would have made it the second run, there were no stand-out poor players, just a bit of tripping up over the last phase AoEs.
But this elitist tank was having none of it and refused to budge until we dismissed him. Everyone refused out of principle, we all wanted him to eat the penalty, but he was such a stubborn prick we had to give in.

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In cases like this report the player. The GMs have the power to remove them from the instance and put them in time out.

The closest solution I have to this is to have counter, server side, that keeps tracks of characters:

1. Initiating a Vote Dismiss and how many times it succeeded or failed
2. Number of times you were Vote Dismissed and number of instances and type of instance and whether it succeeded or failed
3. Reasons for initiating a Vote Dismiss
4. Reasons for being Vote Dismissed from a party/instance

The first basically puts up a flag for moderators to see if someone is vote dismiss spamming in instances at which point they can either contact them or continue to watch their behavior before proceeding with further action. The second acts similar to the first but addresses those on the receiving end of the vote dismiss. They can either address the player as to why they keep getting dismissed and can either to proceed with them or simply track the characters who initiated the vote dismiss in the first place at which point #1 goes into effect.

The last two simply track the number of times a player has initiated and/or been dismissed for either being AFK, Offline, and Harassment. They can then address the player as to their reasoning for continuously initiating a Vote Dismiss for certain reasons or if the player was continuously Vote Dismissed for a certain reason. At which point they can proceed with further action.

While not perfect it does make it easier for moderators to track players who abuse the system. Pair this with their ability to keep a history of chat logs that led to the vote dismiss then I think it would solve most of the problems we have with people trolling or abusing it. However it is not designed to fix the player itself as that is their own personal problem and their own personal issue as to why they feel like wasting peoples time as a way of finding joy or being "funny". IMO these people, if penalized, need to be put in a different queue tier with other people who share their "mindset" but that is best reserved for another thread.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

The game shouldn't actively encourage poor behavior, and yet it does.

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Don't mistake encouraging bad behaviour with players abusing something out of pure choice. Players abuse things all the time because they're lazy or selfish. It is not unique to the vote kick system and most certainly not unique to the game. No system is perfect and there will always be those who take advantage of that.

I also think "encouraging" is a very strong word in this context. I have seen people abuse the vote kick system but in my experience it's very rare. If it really encouraged bad behaviour then it would be pretty common.

I continuously question how threads this old are found and more than that, why people bother necroing.

The... the date of posting is.. easy to see...

The "vote dismiss problem" can be easily fixed by simply removing the 30 minute penalty for abandoning instance. If people aren't happy for whatever reason, just let them leave and get someone else to come in. I never understand why you'd want to force someone to play with you by using that 30 minutes penalty, even if that person is not happy with whatever is going with the current party. I don't want to force someone to play with me because they are unwilling to take the 30 minute penalty hit by leaving. Think about it: if you have no abandon penalty, if someone is unhappy they can just leave instead of vote kicking you. If you are unhappy, instead of vote kick people, just leave and queue for another instance. There's zero need for any type of drama or arguments. Everybody does what they enjoy, no one bothers you, you bother nobody else, everyone is happy.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

The "vote dismiss problem" can be easily fixed by simply removing the 30 minute penalty for abandoning instance. If people aren't happy for whatever reason, just let them leave and get someone else to come in.

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It's designed to stop people abandoning the group immediately because they don't like the dungeon they got in a roulette - leaving three people twiddling their thumbs in a dungeon while they wait for another tank to arrive so they can continue. (And also, presumably, taking up an instance that now can't be used for a group who is actually able to play the game rather than waiting.)

There are already dungeons (eg. Aurum Vale) that people would rather abandon and take the penalty than attempt to play. Can you imagine how much worse it could be if there wasn't even that consequence? Tanks will say "forget this, I can go straight back in the queue and play something else". Maybe (logically) this might result in them being dropped back into the same instance, but they'd just learn to queue for a different roulette in that case.

Lessening the penalty will just encourage more leavers.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

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Though the thing is every player gets to choose what duty they queue for, they decide if it's something that want to do or not. Now roulette it's a bit more difficult as it's random, but then if a player doesn't like certain duties or isn't happy with what they might get, don't queue for that particular roulette, easy. Players make the commitment to the duty as soon as they queue, but if they were to back out, then depending on their role, they could mess it up for everyone else that was queuing as well. Most duties take much less than 30mins, so it's easier for everyone and doesn't waste as much time if an attempt is made to complete it rather than then be stuck with a penalty afterwards, which can add to a full days suspension I think.

There was one time I got in to Arboretum (Hard) and the tank (PLD) was new so they were pulling small, the SCH tried to Rescue the tank towards another mob to which they ignored it and focused on the current mob they had. The SCH let the fairy auto heal then afterwards said bye to the party and left the duty, clearly because they wanted bigger pulls. We never got a replacement healer in the end but we had a RDM and SMN so although it took longer to complete the duty, we did it and still under 30mins, if the SCH just stayed they would of gotten their roulette compete, had a first time bonus and would of avoided a penalty.

I have never been kicked for anything that wasn't my fault. If the majority click yes to get you out of their maybe you did something to deserve the kick *shrugs*