Having higher level gear shouldn't BREAK coil runs!!!

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Originally Posted by Makado

Your completely not understanding what I'm saying. You know the adapting is stopping DPS right? Putting my weapon away and standing there. In the middle of a boss fight I spin in circles or do a dance or sit down because I have to wait for the monster. Wow, awesome. That's so cool that I "adapted" to that. What a joy. Also you haven't even beaten second coil.

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Or you can push DPS faster. You sound butthurt. I'm not sure what me or me not completing T9 has to do with your crying about T7 and T8. Been clearing those for months and our DPS doesn't need to stop, we just push through early.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Yes OmegaFlare because making me take off my I115 weapon and I110 armor for some shit that I don't even have anymore makes a lot more sense then just having the monster mechanics change with the groups DPS instead of "breaking" their mechanics.

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You don't have to take off your weapons if you know when to hold dps and when to push it. You have choices: both choices should lead to consistent t7 clear.

My group has not yet cleared 2nd Coil Turn 4. We were making pretty slow progress there, but we were at least 1 or 2 shotting the previous turns, allowing us time to focus on finishing things up. This week we wasted extra days even making it there due to having to re-adapt to the new strat. I suspect next week will be less stress, but it is still really frustrating. When you have no problem with something for WEEKS and then suddenly start wiping for an hour on it, you're bound to lose your cool.

If you consider it so easy and feel held back just because you can do high dps, why don't you just do Savage instead?
That way you don't have to hold back...

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

If you consider it so easy and feel held back just because you can do high dps, why don't you just do Savage instead?
That way you don't have to hold back...

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That would require clearing all of 2nd Coil... and a large degree of masochism.

Haah waaw you guys are silly like.... you're making a big deal out of something so easily fixed! Yes our group pushes awkward phase changes and yes it does wipe us but do you know what we do the next time? We slow down dps.
Such a foreign concept I know but you'll learn one day.

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Originally Posted by Doki

I'm sure others have already stated this sort of thing, but I imagine a lot more of us are encountering it now with additional sands of time flooding in:

Portions of 2nd Coil of Bahamut: Turn 2, and Turn 3 change in infuriating ways when you move above a certain DPS point. My group has consistently cleared 2nd Coil 1~3 for months, and suddenly we are wiping again and taking WAY longer than we should to clear them. It's to the point where people want to ragequit coil entirely, which really sucks.

For instance, in 2nd Coil Turn 2, when the boss reaches certain HP% points, additional mobs spawn, and when these spawn, it causes an interruption to the bosses skill use rotation. Because of this interruption, the boss will often fail to use voice again in time for us to petrify another Renaud (or re-petrify one), causing a wipe. Currently with my group, this out-of-sync issue tends to happen just after the final add has spawned and died, so it's a long 8ish minutes til we wipe each time. We have combated this FLAW by intentionally turning our backs and not DPSing the boss until she uses shriek at certain HP percentages, but this does not feel intentional, nor does it fit the spirit of what a boss fight is about in my opinion.

In 2nd Coil: Turn 3, higher DPS causes towers to skip ahead to the 3 tower config sooner, which causes issues syncing up the AoE dmg tower with Allagan field. Tower AoE hits Allagan Field person, we wipe. For this we eventually worked out a different tower order and cleared after much longer than a usual run.

BEFORE we had better gear, the battles both flowed perfectly. I find it asinine that we should have to hold back DPS or wear inferior gear to maintain proper flow through these fights. Unless SE is going to drastically change the fights when echo appears in 2nd coil, I do not see echo helping much.

I believe this sort of issue is just going to keep happening, given the way gear progression is working. There's going to a "not geared enough" point, a "geared just right" point, and an "over-geared" point in raids moving forward. I just hope the developers are testing out these battles in all 3 possible sets of gear and looking at what happens to the mechanics of the fights.

For as long as I've played Final Fantasy games, and RPGs in general, one of the funnest aspects has always been over-leveling and over-gearing your characters and then utterly destroying everything in the game. While I understand the need for balance in an MMO, I do think past accomplishments should continue to make redoing content easier over time!

Edit: To clarify, WE CAN CLEAR THESE STILL, I'm just saying it feels like poor design to have to basically STAND THERE until the mechanics catch up. There are even times when standing there still wasn't enough on 2nd Coil Turn 2. Honestly, it felt like it went better when we just had a couple of people DIE so the DPS lowered. That is plain dumb.

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Couple things. Your kiter is simply failing if he/she is unable to adjust to the boss's rotation. It is always possible to leave 1 renaud up until the 2nd pops. There is no excuse for wiping b/c of this. I say this from own experience as a kiter. We go balls out and never hold dps at any point in the fight.

On T8, if you skip 5th towers, which everyone should easily be doing at this point, and you do not bring the boss below 39% fast enough, you will get a final ballistic missle after defensive reaction goes off. Again, all you need to do is adjust your strategy slightly. The problematic allagan field is the 3rd one as it will appear after the first defensive reaction and before the second. Healers simply need to have swiftcast ready and cast stoneskin + adloquium on the person with field. Not difficult.

You are not punished for higher dps.

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Originally Posted by Makado

That's not the point. The point is that you are punished for having high DPS. I talked about this awhile ago and it happens with a lot of fights. What's the point of giving the good gear if you basically aren't even allowed to use its potential?

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Think about what you just stated - You're normally punished for overkilling fights. That happens, it sucks but it makes sense. You run into Leviathan with full High Allagan gear, yea pushing it too hard/fast can be punishing because you're way overgeared for it. you can "use the gear to its fullest potential" on content that wasn't designed for that gear in the first place, you know?

As said, yeah it suck but it does make sense. When Third Coil of Bahamut comes out, you can use your full high Allagan to its potential.

Why would they design fights that don't support the current equipment? That makes absolutely zero sense.

Actually I'm sorry that was wrong we were talking about ifrit and such.they could just respond by allowing you to kill them if you are over geared. It makes sense since they nerf old content to support new content along with it.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Why would they design fights that don't support the current equipment? That makes absolutely zero sense.

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For answering SE trying to make sense: it's the same way they inserted Hunts into the game - and CT after Coil.

Not going to read through six pages of this thread, but Yoshi said at some point (during an interview, or maybe the last E3 live letter), that this sort of thing was intentional and served to change up the fights a little bit and keep things interesting even after people had been clearing the content for a few weeks.

The fights are all heavily scripted and everything transitions at exact HP percentages. Now that we have an in-game HP percentage display, there's really no excuse for getting caught by this kind of thing anymore short of your raid members simply not having the requisite awareness and coordination to deal with them. It's not a big deal and it is very easy to account for.

TL;DR

git gud

Well, either way, It's going to get really interesting when they add echo to 2nd coil and the percentage of the server population that can't clear it remains about the same.

The only time I've felt being punished for higher DPS has been Ifrit ex nails (I still think it's bad design to not make him immune to damage while nails are up) and T6 when we had to move from killing 1 slug to burning the boss because we only got LB1 for last phase. In T7 our kiter is great and we have no issues. We only hold DPS when we move to the last phase so that we won't have add popping while shriek is coming. In T8 us healers handle the double explosions no problem even if they towers don't sync.

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Originally Posted by Doki

Well, either way, It's going to get really interesting when they add echo to 2nd coil and the percentage of the server population that can't clear it remains about the same.

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You think the people that aren't at second coil today can meet the dps requirements without echo?
While some of them are probably stuck on pure mechanics, I think you overestimate a lot of players if you think the majority wouldn't need echo at i110...

People complain about the strangest things. "The hardest content of the game is inconveniencing us by making us adjust our tactics!" If you come up with the strategy for end game fights in-house, meaning your FC figures the fight out for themselves, then changing phases quicker than usual isn't a big deal because your party actually understands how the fight works instead of memorizing a script written by someone else.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

People complain about the strangest things. "The hardest content of the game is inconveniencing us by making us adjust our tactics!" If you come up with the strategy for end game fights in-house, meaning your FC figures the fight out for themselves, then changing phases quicker than usual isn't a big deal because your party actually understands how the fight works instead of memorizing a script written by someone else.

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It's just the mentality that people don't want to adapt. They feel that their efforts to gain better gear so they can faceroll through everything without a care is foiled as a result. While it is unusual these days to have a game that has mechanics that prevent overkill/facerolls from 100-0%, it isn't exactly the equivalent of being persecuted for it. I think it's actually a positive thing that keeps the same content relatively dynamic.

I've wiped plenty of times on turn 6 just because of dots pushes the boss to its last phase. The second they add echo to turn 6 it'll be much easier to burn the boss in phase 2 in one cycle and bulbs you're dpsing will probably not spawn thorns. I don't feel gear matters a lot in this fight until your gear is capable of doing what I just mentioned.

Scripted mechanics breakdown as gear pushes your DPS higher.

DPS is difficult to regulate because phase changes are at specific percentages throughout a fight - it is currently impossible to see the specific percentages without using a third-party tool.
So instead players have to base strategy and timing for "make-or-break" scripted mechanics on arbitrary estimations or break the ToS to get the exact percentages.

So higher gear makes those arbitrary estimations harder to keep track of because they're changing as the stats are being adjusted upward with every successful clearing of the content. It means players need to put their weapons away - and avoiding doing their primary function until auxiliary conditions can be met to complete the mechanic and clear the content.

There aren't many fights that allow people to just "spank-and-tank" in Final Fantasy XIV. This content design feels very counter-intuitive when you contrast it with the direct vertical progression that the rewards imply.

My group was pushing through encounters faster way before Sand/Oil was introduced into hunts, but that's because we were actually using what was given to us from completing SCoB week after week.

Don't blame hunts on this. Learn to adapt your strategies to make the fight manageable.

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it is currently impossible to see the specific percentages without using a third-party tool.

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You can turn on the HP percentage with the last update under character config.

I'd just like to point out (i96 WHM/PLD here) that there are similar phase push mechanics on Levi EX. Levi -always- summons first Wavetooth at ~80% health even if he's about to dive at the moment (I've even seen the Wavetooth sliding around on the deck because he spawned right before Body Slam, it's kinda funny), conjures first Gyre Spumes at 70%, etc. Wavetooth will automatically break rotation and start prepping Dreadstorm (becoming immune to Stun in the process) if he reaches a certain threshold I've yet to completely figure out (it seems to be 50~60% health?) which is the real nasty problem.
Speaking as someone who's taken down Levi EX three times as the off-tank? I fail to see the source of the complaint here. Y'know what I did when I realized "oh crap, the Wavetooth has a push mechanic too?!" I adapted. When I realized he'll spawn no matter what Levi's doing a few seconds after we hit 80%? I adapted. I keep a sharp eye on Levi's HP and keep my eyes on both edges of the boat once I see Levi hit 81%. I hold off on going completely balls-out with my attacks when the gyre spumes break until the converter hits 21/100. I watch the Wavetooth's HP and start stunning if I see him get into the 60-65% range. In short? I change my tactics and adapt, and we still have no problem. Hell, I was in a farm group last night with such astounding DPS that we were phase-pushing even -without- the Echo. None of them were complaining about being "punished" even when we had a few minor problems our second run and we took a pair of wipes (one due to the SCH freezing at the absolute worst time possible).No complaining, just simple attention and adaptation and we walked out of that fight with two wins and two shiny new Wave weapons.

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Originally Posted by Solonuke

You can turn on the HP percentage with the last update under character config.

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Well that's nifty thanks for letting me know about that! Still it is funny - the content does have this "aging" problem.

Example: Ifrit EX in over i90 - so many times people hit the hard enrage on him early because they can push damage so much harder.

You all keep saying adapt and slow DPS, etc. Then please tell me what the point of having gear is that greatly exceeds the fights? So you can get to the HP% to wait at quicker? So you can wait with your weapons away so you don't enrage and wipe? It doesn't matter if your overgearing, the fights should not be gating you from downing bosses faster. It doesn't matter if its a script, and obviously we have adapted since we clear everything every week. They should allow for the groups who can kill or push extremely fast to do so. We worked for the gear, but are then told "haha just slow or stop with that, because its to fast."

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Originally Posted by Makado

You all keep saying adapt and slow DPS, etc. Then please tell me what the point of having gear is that greatly exceeds the fights? So you can get to the HP% to wait at quicker? So you can wait with your weapons away so you don't enrage and wipe? It doesn't matter if your overgearing, the fights should not be gating you from downing bosses faster. It doesn't matter if its a script, and obviously we have adapted since we clear everything every week. They should allow for the groups who can kill or push extremely fast to do so. We worked for the gear, but are then told "haha just slow or stop with that, because its to fast."

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It's a perspective thing. Your chance of wiping is drastically lower when you outgear something, and it's not just because you would otherwise be able to kill it faster. Your chances of wiping to things thanks to higher stats is significantly lowered (partly due to better heals and tanking potential), as the danger presented is much less of a "danger" in most cases. While there can be reasons for people to go back to lower tier content, it still means you're doing otherwise trivial content because you won't wipe (probably) when you adapt to the wait portions. It's the way the fights were designed for the intended audience. You overgearing them automatically makes you NOT the intended audience.

Does that mean it's perfect as is? Of course not, but you're not exactly prevented from doing them. Is it a big deal? Only if you think your e-peen needs attention so that you can faceroll harder.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Then please tell me what the point of having gear is that greatly exceeds the fights? So you can get to the HP% to wait at quicker? So you can wait with your weapons away so you don't enrage and wipe?

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Go look at my post and tell me where at all I said putting your weapon away was necessary. At most there's one or two brief windows where you need to slow (NOT stop) on a few of the highest-tier fights. (Prime example being the end of phase 2 Twintania; you want to stop going balls-out with all your strongest abilities at around 55% and watch so you don't trigger divebombs while a conflag is active.) I said to ADAPT. To use different strategies. Not to put away your weapons and twiddle your thumbs. Even when I said I slow my attacks sometimes on Levi so he doesn't try to do Tidal Wave too soon after we break the spumes, that means I don't pop Fight or Flight and I don't throw around Spirits Within or Circle of Scorn. Look at my post; I don't say "put your weapon away and wait until X happens to resume DPS". I say "okay, your tank needs to be aware and throw out stuns earlier than usual to make sure Dread doesn't happen." I say "the offtank and DPS need to keep their eyes open so they can intercept Wavetooth if it comes early". Several of the other posts here do very similar things (not creating a super-slug, keeping the first Renaud alive, etc.) If you're going to complain and restate your initial faulty claim over and over again without reading people then I see no point in indulging you further. Read what we're saying and actually comprehend it, or buzz off.

I'd argue it adds more boredom and tedious crap to fights you should just be allowed to face roll (provided you put in the work to gear yourself) and increases chances for wipe since you can't just finish it and have to jump through forced hoops. Also they made content rewards specifically from the extreme primals (the prime suspects for this gating bull) for people to get. So it isn't exactly trivial since its one of the few unique rewards to obtain in the game.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Does that mean it's perfect as is? Of course not, but you're not exactly prevented from doing them. Is it a big deal? Only if you think your e-peen needs attention so that you can faceroll harder.

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No, but my wife and the rest of my real life needs attention. So yea, after weeks and weeks of doing coil successfully, I kind of want to faceroll a little bit. So I can hang out with them and not say "sorry babe, still progression. I hope you understand"

Sorry, I'm talking from my experiences where we have to put away our weapons because its actually what we have to do. That is what we are forced into. It doesn't matter that your group sometimes pushed something a little extra. I'm talking where we have pushed so quickly just doing what our jobs are designed to do that unless we do so then we lose. Possibly the comprehension needs to go the opposite way.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

No, but my wife and the rest of my real life needs attention. So yea, after weeks and weeks of doing coil successfully, I kind of want to faceroll a little bit. So I can hang out with them and not say "sorry babe, still progression. I hope you understand"

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A million times this. Amazing response.

It's like you guys think high dps is the only measure of skill in this game.

If you know the fight and know the mechanics you shouldn't be wiping over and over.
If you are, it's because you're not skilled enough to pay attention to the phases.

Sorry you don't get an easy ride for having decent gear. Unfortunately you're playing a game that requires paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

It's like you guys think high dps is the only measure of skill in this game.

If you know the fight and know the mechanics you shouldn't be wiping over and over.
If you are, it's because you're not skilled enough to pay attention to the phases.

Sorry you don't get an easy ride for having decent gear. Unfortunately you're playing a game that requires paying attention.

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Yes I know how hard it is for me to pay attention that's why I got some weird In Another Bind 3 achievement this lockout. So I guess I obviously just don't understand this game. Damn.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Yes I know how hard it is for me to pay attention that's why I got some weird In Another Bind 3 achievement this lockout. So I guess I obviously just don't understand this game. Damn.

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Your progression point does not mean you understand your situation. The fact you think it does already raises a flag that you might not. You understand the fights, clearly... but you don't understand the game. Big difference.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

No, but my wife and the rest of my real life needs attention. So yea, after weeks and weeks of doing coil successfully, I kind of want to faceroll a little bit. So I can hang out with them and not say "sorry babe, still progression. I hope you understand"

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Must suck if you waste time after a wipe then. I bet she'd divorce you if your minutes lost is that important. Though a smart man would know how to prioritize their time between entertainment and responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Sorry, I'm talking from my experiences where we have to put away our weapons because its actually what we have to do. That is what we are forced into. It doesn't matter that your group sometimes pushed something a little extra. I'm talking where we have pushed so quickly just doing what our jobs are designed to do that unless we do so then we lose. Possibly the comprehension needs to go the opposite way.

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The one and only fight that FORCES you into a dps stop is Ifrit Ex. In EVERY other fight you get to choose. If you guys aren't able to keep your focus up and,for example, kill the levi adds while he dives, then it's not the games fault. Your gear is definitly good enough to handle this kind of situation.
Also, if one of your raidmembers has to watch ONE little thing more and call it out for skipping 3 other mechanics it makes the fight easier. But this works only if you really understand how the fight works. From what you've said in all your posts i get the feeling that you and your group just learned all those fights from video guides and tweaked those premade strategies to your own needs without really analyzing the whole fight. Otherwise you wouldn't have to cry about something like this because most of those issues can be solved nearly on the fly (maybe2-3 wipes inbetween but those can also happen if someone isn't focused enough - i just say "voice" at this point).

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

No, but my wife and the rest of my real life needs attention. So yea, after weeks and weeks of doing coil successfully, I kind of want to faceroll a little bit. So I can hang out with them and not say "sorry babe, still progression. I hope you understand"

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After weeks of succesfully clearing coil it's not progression raiding anymore. At this point you have that content on farm.


Oh and also Burst checks and DPS stops are valid encounter mechanics, which means it's totally fine if some encounter force you to "just stand around".
So either learn to analyze fights properly and adapt, or dps stop to keep your old phase push timings. And if you want to just faceroll stuff... maybe hunts would be better content for you guys.

Frankly it's a fail on SE's part. The better yours groups gear the harder it is when everyone pushes DD. We shouldn't have to hold dps for 20 seconds or w/e to wait on a boss to use her skill because we are pew peeling too hard. I think if you hit a certain phase the skills from the previous phase should either be omitted or automaticly synced to the new phase.

Levithan is horrendous for this situation. Pugs don't hold dps normally. Some premade groups derp and don't. It is punishment for high dps no matter how it's sliced and I'd like to know SE's reason behind it.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

Levithan is horrendous for this situation. Pugs don't hold dps normally. Some premade groups derp and don't. It is punishment for high dps no matter how it's sliced and I'd like to know SE's reason behind it.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

It's like you guys think high dps is the only measure of skill in this game.

If you know the fight and know the mechanics you shouldn't be wiping over and over.
If you are, it's because you're not skilled enough to pay attention to the phases.

Sorry you don't get an easy ride for having decent gear. Unfortunately you're playing a game that requires paying attention.

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There's your answer. Easiest example of this being blatantly true: Titan EX. Paying attention to mechanics is KEY to clearing him, even if it's just memorizing a pattern.

Other example: T6. Blighted Bouquet is a nice mechanic to prove that not ALL fights can just be facerolled/zerged through.

We got INSANE dps in Coils and are dealin with Allagan field + tower. I mean if you cant even use mantra + virus on Avatar + soils + adlo + stoneskin to save the day, why are you dpsin that hard then if you cant prevent damage taken too ?

The only "problem" is the voice at 35% on Melusine, I mean, just wait to get the voice and dps again. Its like what a 5 seconds wait ? Does it honestly lower the dps that much ?

No, no it doesnt ..

OP is about 2 months too late into realizing that t7 has weird phasing mechanics, and many years late in realizing that slowing DPS for correct phasing is a valid encounter mechanic in raids.

Also I'm pretty sure anywhere between few to no-one cares about sick record-breaking DPS on t7, it's a execution fight and people know that shriek RNG screws individual DPS anyway.

But thats the thing you dont need to slow down dps in any fight. Literally in any of them.

Like, if renault is / are about to be unpetrified, make the bard use shadowbind or your summoner simply swiftcast tri disaster and carry on. Yes, it work. Have to be also really really quick and aware but doable.

Can't say that I have much endgame experience but I think it's ridiculous that DPS believe that they should be able to go full-throttle for every single second of a fight.