Sightseeing Log - Its just not happening.

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Originally Posted by Fervid

I disagree. The problem is not the system at all. The system was designed to take time to complete. The problem is that people (like those in this thread) want to get the completion done within a few days.

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Hardly.

I wanted to do Sightseeing at my leisure, because this is a purely option piece of side content in a game. Instead? When I can be bothered to look at the Sightseeing Log and attempt to figure some out, I'm effectively punished for doing side content on the side, instead of scheduling my day around it. It's ridiculous. Instead of working something out and going to tick it off, I have to work something out and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. It's like the most obtuse scavenger hunt ever.

I wouldn't have blown through it in a day or two either, by the way. The only way someone can manage that is if they use a guide, and the only way someone can sanely complete the damn thing now is if they use a guide. But hey, whats wrong with people blowing through it in a day anyway? Again; It is side content. Do the Hildibrand quests take me weeks to complete? No. Did the Riddles quest take me longer than a day? No. Mail Mog, something which is pretty much a 1:1 comparison to Sightseeing (lore on characters, minion at the end)? No. Sightseeing is the only piece of side content they've done this with, and instead of people getting it done in a few days, they've got people condemning the content and not even bothering, but I'm sure that's a sign that the content is perfectly fine and there are no problems with it, right?

I honestly do not know what is both sadder and funnier, that SE even implemented it like this, or that people still find a way to defend it. Sightseeing is broken and flawed, you can claim that is "just my opinion" if you like, but it is also the opinion of the vast majority of people who actually care about the system, both here and in the other language forums (or it was back at release when I bothered to check). That itself warrants the issue to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

I am curious as to know what you considered fun about this? How was it fun for you? You enjoyed having to rely on weather conditions? Having to wait for the right weather to go out and then complete these things was fun?

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This I wonder as well. No doubt getting an entry is satisfying and fun, but the waiting on the RNG goods to bless you with Rain at 5PM in Eastern Thanalan? I found nothing fun about that, it was frustrating and completely out of my hands. To compare it to another piece of side content, the Riddles quests, that could also be frustrating, but it was frustrating because I couldn't figure out the riddle, not because the game didn't grace me with the right weather at the right time. At this point I don't even feel satisfied on the rare occasion that I do fill out an entry in the Sightseeing Log. There's no more "Yay, I figured it out and got it", just "Finally..." when the planets decide to align.

I also enjoy fishing in this game which also relies on timing and weather. I'm having a blast catching all the new big fish even though there is pretty much no point to doing so. Why? Because it's just a game. I see you guys stressing so much about this and for what? a minion? seriously? Don't like doing it, then don't do it. Leave the challenging content to those who enjoy these types of challenges. Don't be mad because I'm enjoying it and you think it's broken and flawed. So what. There's lots to do in this game.. go find something better to do with your time.

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Originally Posted by Fervid

I disagree. The problem is not the system at all. The system was designed to take time to complete. The problem is that people (like those in this thread) want to get the completion done within a few days.

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Um, no.

GW2 has Vista's that are much, MUCH better than SE's bastardized version, and while they dont rely on time or weather, they still take a heck of a long time to complete.

See, GW2 makes them tricky to find the path to, so its a lot more exploring, and puzzle solving, whereas SE took it and took that fun right out of it by tying it to things like weather and time and made it yet one more miserable experience.

GW2 did it better, by far, and it took me quite a while there to get them all, even at max level. The exploration factor is far more fun than sitting around going... "Is it raining on the plain in Spain yet at 4:00am?".

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Originally Posted by Fervid

Leave the challenging content to those who enjoy these types of challenges.

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Challenging content? Ha!

Oh, I'll admit working out the location can be a challenge, but that is where it stops. I'm fairly sure I've stressed this enough, and you're willingly ignoring it, but waiting is what ruins this content.

Waiting for weather is not a challenge, if you think it is then you're horribly misinformed. The Riddles quests were a challenge, waiting for weather is nothing but a blatant time sink. I'm fairly sure some twisted form of Stockholm Syndrome is keeping you from seeing this; "I put up with it, so it must be fine! right...?"

At least with Fishing you end up with a bag full of Fish for all your (futile if you didn't land the prize) work. At least Fishing in this game is somewhat more true to real life. I'd post another analogy of how ridiculous Sightseeing is, but I've already posted plenty, and you'll probably just ignore this one, too. Fishing, like Sightseeing, is intended to be side content you can do at your leisure; you can sit down and Fish whenever, can you go to a Vista and get a log entry whenever? I'm aware there are some Fish with time/weather requirements, but not every single one of them, fairly sure I said in the previous thread that I'd be OK with some of these Vistas having such requirements (Urth's Fount in Hopelessness should be in the Log dangnabit), just that all of them having it is ridiculousness taken to 11.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

I've quit trying this altogether and my life has never been better.

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My sentiments exactly. I completed the first 20 entries shortly after they were released... and then promptly realized doing 60 more entries was the most boring, tedious thing I could ever do to myself. You can keep your minion, Square.

Sightseeing is never happening for me because they want us to position ourselves in ridiculous places.

Seems simple to me.

1. Log in.
2. Check weather NPC or http://na.ff14angler.com/skywatcher/.
3. See that the weather I want for the entry I'm hunting isn't up in the next hour.
4. GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.

Seriously we have this wonderful weather NPC now. There is no reason to be sitting around waiting for anything.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Seems simple to me.

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Just so you know, some of use aren't using a guide, so we can't exactly check the Weather NPC and go down a list of what is and isn't possible. Some of us actually go out and find a Vista before working out the weather (because rarely is the time and/or weather remotely apparent in the clues), and are effectively turned away upon arriving at a Vista.

And yes, I can do something else while waiting for the RNG to grace me with the right time/weather. That's exactly what I do. That's not a complement to the system though, that's just another flaw. Rather than going; "I want to go Sightseeing" and actually going Sightseeing (like I want to), I'm going "I want to go Sightseeing... Nevermind, I'll check back in later when the NPC updates" and doing something completely different for an indeterminate amount of time. The game effectively goes; "You want to do this? <dice roll> Nope, sorry, come back later".

Waiting at the Vista. Waiting at the Weather NPC. Crafting while you wait. It is all still a waiting game. Waiting is the constant in Sightseeing, the variable is where you are/what you're doing while you wait.

If the locations looked visual different during times, and only a few where gaited by times. I could understand this. However many places are inside a cave that doesn't graphicallly change at all based on time of day, or outside where 9 am looks the same as 6 pm.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

If only SE had just stuck with the fun explorer formula that GW2 uses for this sort of thing.....

Oh, wait... this is SE.. what was I thinking... :rolleyes: ROFLMAO... (They've got to make anything fun into a miserable grind.)

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http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...33-d32tvet.jpg
Seriously...go play WoW or something if your so sick and tired of WORKING for your stuff...god.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...33-d32tvet.jpg
Seriously...go play WoW or something if your so sick and tired of WORKING for your stuff...god.

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Um, working isnt a problem, look over my character... I've put in plenty of "work" here.

Sightseeing is a horrible grind item and compared to GW2's Vistas, sucks Moogle balls in how it was implemented.

Sitting around waiting for something to happen, not fun.

Exploring and moving around to find something, fun.

If you dont like other people's opinions, best to stay off the forums so your Lala panties dont get tied in a knot. ;)

Can't express to the devs enough just how much of a massive disappointment the sightseeing log was. Sightseeing, to me, is going along and seeing things YOUR way, not someone elses way. I dunno, the whole thing stinks, I may get it done only because I'm off work for two weeks so can leave myself standing at vistas while I do other stuff... otherwise I wouldn't bother. If I don't get it done in these two weeks... I probably wont. Even the lure of a minion... nope, dull quest is dull

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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A waiting game you've chosen to play by not referencing player information to find the correct time and weather. I understand you are trying to "do it yourself" but you need to acknowledge that you are deliberately and purposefully making it harder on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

Seriously...go play WoW or something if your so sick and tired of WORKING for your stuff...god.

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I'll call the Oxford University Press tomorrow and let them know that the definition of "Working" needs to be changed to "Not doing your intended task while external forces out of your control determine when you can finish your intended task, purely at random". I'm personally looking forward to sitting around doing nothing and getting payed for the hard work I'm clearly doing; "Sorry boss, I can't do that until I roll 3 fours, waiting to roll 3 fours is still working though; ask Scootaloo".

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

A waiting game you've chosen to play by not referencing player information to find the correct time and weather.

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No. It's a waiting game regardless of how I, or anyone, decides to go about doing it. Even if I used a guide, I'd still be waiting. Absolutely nobody got this done without at some point waiting for the right time/weather. If they got lucky and got the right time/weather every time they turned up... By a lottery ticket for Christs sake...

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

You do that, oh and you may want to inform them that they should use your own definition of "Working" which is "I get what I want with little to no effort and nearly instantly"

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Nice strawman. Would probably have more impact if I wasn't the person clearly claiming to put effort working out the clues to find Vistas, instead of going down a guide online.

You really think waiting for the RNG to give you the right weather at the right time involves effort though? Wow... Just... Wow....

Perhaps I should apply for the job; Sitting in my garden waiting for it to rain between 5PM and 6PM... I hear a lot of hard work goes into that, so the pay is sure to be good.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'll call the Oxford University Press tomorrow and let them know that the definition of "Working" needs to be changed to "Not doing your intended task while external forces out of your control determine when you can finish your intended task, purely at random". I'm personally looking forward to sitting around doing nothing and getting payed for the hard work I'm clearly doing.

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You do that, oh and you may want to inform them that they should use your own definition of "Working" which is "I get what I want with little to no effort and nearly instantly"

@Scootaloo: When have you given up on this content?
I dont see the minion in your Profile, do you do one log entry a day or how do you wait for it?
I mean, if you are defending the content, it must mean you have fun in doing the content. If you have fun in doing so, you are still doing logs... dont you?

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

You do that, oh and you may want to inform them that they should use your own definition of "Working" which is "I get what I want with little to no effort and nearly instantly"

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Why do people always take it to the extremes? That wont make your point any less invalid.

No one is saying it should take no effort and be nearly instantly, it's just that the weather requirement is only there as a time sink, it serves no other purpose.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

No. It's a waiting game regardless of how I, or anyone, decides to go about doing it. Even if I used a guide, I'd still be waiting. Absolutely nobody got this done without at some point waiting for the right time/weather. If they got lucky and got the right time/weather every time they turned up... By a lottery ticket for Christs sake...

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Yes, you might have to wait a few hours. It's a lot different that sitting in one spot, in the same zone, for hours on end simply because you aren't 100% sure of the time and weather. When you already know the time and weather you can simply check the weather npc's, see that it's not up for the next hour, and get on with your life. That's what I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Yes, you might have to wait a few hours. It's a lot different that sitting in one spot, in the same zone, for hours on end simply because you aren't 100% sure of the time and weather. When you already know the time and weather you can simply check the weather npc's, see that it's not up for the next hour, and get on with your life. That's what I was referring to.

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I know what you were referring to, my point is that is doesn't matter; no matter how you go about it, Sightseeing still has a blatant and meaningless time sink that you seem to be defending for... What reason exactly?

Honestly, the fact that you're just encouraging the use of a guide just further damns this content in my opinion. This is a Sightseeing side-quest, not a freakin' Atari game.

Three things:

1) The game is built on a follow the dotted line principle whereas GW2 was far more open in its original progression structure and encouraged exploration.

2) GW2 vistas were platforming challenges, which have a clear goal point. Vistas do not have this benefit.

3) The current setup of the game runs contradictory to the entire purpose of hide-and-seek style gameplay. When end game progression becomes so tight that players must find the most efficient use of their time to overcome it, a challenge where the distance/time to the goal is uncertain and runs counter to the gear treadmill is going to be heavily discouraged as an option. The palpable dread of losing one's place in the gearing hierarchy due to the vertical progression just makes these kinds of efforts to enrich the game a total waste.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying they should stop trying to do these interesting things in the game, but they have to realize they've built their own worst enemy.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

A waiting game you've chosen to play by not referencing player information to find the correct time and weather. I understand you are trying to "do it yourself" but you need to acknowledge that you are deliberately and purposefully making it harder on yourself.

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"Youre not trivializing content by looking up the guides online so its YOUR fault not the developers horrible design decision"

... /sigh ... this is what MMO's have become. Yeah sorry, I try not to look up answers for the video games I pay(ed) good money to play. Didnt do it to beat Sephiroth, or Sin ... shouldnt need to do it here. Then again, I suppose youd think it'd be ok if the developers required players to get to them at exactly 6:45PM to actually fight them.

Its funny how what some of you consider to be "work," the rest of the world considers lazing around doing nothing.

Seriously guys it's just a bunch of riddles meant to be done for fun. If is not fun then stop. It's not like it's serious content with serious rewards. Mountain meet molehill.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Seriously guys it's just a bunch of riddles meant to be done for fun. If is not fun then stop. It's not like it's serious content with serious rewards. Mountain meet molehill.

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And many people stopped because it's not fun, but yet again you're missing the point of where the problem lies in.

No one is complaining about the riddles, the main complaint is that the weather requirement is killing the fun of the riddles that were meant to be done for fun.

Devs want feedback and this (and many other) threads are meant to give feedback, to let them know why less than 1% of the playerbase is enjoying this and perhaps hope for a change.

Or I can tell the developers that it's not fun, and they can address that issue.

Seriously, please do explain what about waiting for time/weather you find so integral to the fun of Sightseeing? What reason to you have to oppose any change to Sightseeing? We've asked people like you this question plenty of times, they never grace us with a response. Why would you rather have to follow a guide while waiting at the weather NPC, instead of working out the location, going there, and getting it done? Please do explain exactly why you like Sightseeing as it currently is, and how the removal of strict time/weather requirements would destroy that.

The fact that it isn't serious content is all the more reason these requirements make no sense. Coil has lock outs because it is there for gear progression. Sightseeing is purely a side activity, yet it has worse lockouts; more people have High Allagan gear than have the freaking minion. How is anyone defending this farce?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Seriously, please do explain what about waiting for time/weather you find so integral to the fun of Sightseeing?

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Some vista's simply don't make sense without the right time and weather. That's the entire point of some of them. If the vista is all about witnessing the sun rise then the entire point would be missed in the middle of the day or during a rain storm. Therefore they have time and weather requirements. It's not that hard to grasp that a "vista" is a certain picturesque view they want you to see and therefore those view isn't always available at all times of the day and all weather conditions.

It has nothing to do with the "fun" of sight seeing. It has everything to do with the intended view they wanted you to see. It seems like you guys are determined to ignore that simple concept just because you want to complain about the requirements.

For the record I've never opposed any changes to vista's so some people need to read a little more closely. I simply think complaining about the weather and time requirements is a giant waste of time and not productive for anyone since it completely ignores the entire point of Vistas. Better riddles to help you determine the information more easily and the weather NPCs should be enough.

Oh, so that's why you need to wait for a certain time and weather to view the interior of the Leatherworking Guild. Now it all makes sense...

Go back a reread the part where I said I'd be OK with some of these having such requirements. Also, actually read the riddles and realize some of them give little to no indication to time and/or weather. Also, go check entry #019 again; the place you view the Vista, and the picture you receive are completely different. While we're on that subject, you get a picture when you complete a Vista, oh look, I'm seeing it with the "right" time and weather. Or heck, we have this power called the Echo which lets us see past events... I could go on, but I'm done with this joke.

You're not opposed to change, but you're actively arguing against people calling for it. Hilarious. Getting a pretty good laugh out of "Complaining about the requirements is a giant waste of time" too, considering the requirements are solely there to waste time themselves. Would a side by side comparison of the Lonely Giant in the two arbitrarily different types of rain convince you that you're defending a completely stupid system? I'd love to know how it being exactly 5~6PM can even be told during rainy weather, too. That's a hell of a specific time to require considering rain has a tendency to make any time of the day look similar.

Sight seeing log - 009 "Knew it was my calling ever since I was knee-high to a goobbue. When cloudy days sunky my spirits, I'd sneak into the guild, climb as high as my legs could carry me and watch the tanners and tawers at work below." Such were the craftsman's words, and I would see as he saw.

You're watching them work. During work hours. Granted it's a game and the NPCs are going at it at all times, but if it was a real place it would have real work hours. Clearly that's what this one refers to. While yes 12-5PM seems a bit limited in that scope it still makes some sense. It's work hours. Also, some of these riddles are clearly connected to stories such as the weather requirement in this case. Your focus on "interior" ignores everything they were going for because you don't want to deal with it.

Unreal... You're defending #009 of all things... Absolutely unreal...

Because it's not difficult. I log in, I check the weather, see it's not going to happen in the next hour and I move on with my life. I'll try again tomorrow or maybe later in the night. I don't sit around stressing because I missed something that will take me all of 1 minute to accomplish once the conditions are right. If you are stressing yourself out over these then you are taking this content far too seriously. It's supposed to be a silly diversion. Just something extra to do. The rewards aren't even good. The system may not be perfect but I don't for 1 second want them wasting time improving content that is nearly meaningless to begin with. It's a giant waste of development time.

Just as you have a right to let them know it's a problem for you I have a right to step up and let them know I disagree and that it's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It's supposed to be a silly diversion. Just something extra to do.

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That is exactly the point though. It isn't a silly diversion. It isn't something extra to do. Waiting for the Weather NPC to give you the go ahead is neither of those things.

If it was something extra to do, I'd be doing it right now; instead I'm not because it isn't set to Rain in Eastern Thanalan a 5~6PM today. At best it is something extra to wait to do, and that waiting is exactly what we're complaining about.

Hildibrands quests are a silly little extra thing to do. The Riddles quest was a silly little extra thing to do. The Mail Mog quests were a silly little extra thing to do. Neither of those piece of content had you waiting for a completely meaningless and arbitrary alignment of time/weather. Your progression in those piece of content was purely down to your personal pace, there was absolutely no waiting on the RNG Gods to bless you with their consent.

No sh*t it isn't difficult. Difficulty isn't the problem we've been complaining about; the pointless time sink is. The pointless time sink you're defending by claiming the interior of the Leatherworking Guild has a different atmosphere depending on the time and weather. It. Doesn't.

Yes, it is a completely 99% useless silly diversion. Many players have never even touched it because it's so superfluous. The ONLY thing you get from it is some achievements and a minion. That's it.

Also, God forbid something in this game isn't immediately doable 100% on demand. The horror!

It's like nothing else in game makes people wait. Oh wait...
Gardening
Botany high end nodes
Mining High end nodes
Fishing certain fish
Various daily allowances
Various weekly allowances
and I'm sure more I'm forgetting

You need more patience.

I've been arguing with you for the past while (and people like you since its release), I think I have plenty of patience as is.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Also, God forbid something in this game isn't immediately doable 100% on demand. The horror!

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Even if you removed all the requirements, it wouldn't be 100% doable on demand. You'd still need to find the locations (something you do by effectively cheating). You'd still need to figure out the jumping. You'd still need to figure out the emote. You'd still need to go back the the quest NPC after completing the first 20 to unlock the rest. And so on, and so on.

Oh, now you're comparing progression/economic content with, in your own words, "silly diversions". Cute.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It isn't a silly diversion. It isn't something extra to do. Waiting for the Weather NPC to give you the go ahead is neither of those things.

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Can you explain why do you think that the Sightseeing Log is not "extra content"?
I'm wondering, because if it's not "extra content/silly diversion", it's therefore "main content/serious stuff".
In which case, I believe that you are missing the point of the purpose of this content and the way it's meant to be completed.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Sightseeing. In fact, it was probably my favorite addition to the game to date. It took me about a 3-4 weeks total after it was released to complete it. Four days to get my last two entries (the two towers in Coerthas). Upon completion, it felt like quite the achievement. Not only that, I built my own web app to help me keep track of my progress because nothing else existed besides a spreadsheet at the time. I meant to release it to the community, but I never got around to making the final few fixes necessary (like mobile display). It's sitting at ffxivsightseeing.com if you want to check it out.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Can you explain why do you think that the Sightseeing Log is not "extra content"?
I'm wondering, because if it's not "extra content/silly diversion", it's therefore "main content/serious stuff".
In which case, I believe that you are missing the point of the purpose of this content and the way it's meant to be completed.

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You've completely missed my point; Do you consider waiting for the bus a silly diversion or extra content in your day? Yes you can listen to music, or check your phone while waiting for the bus, but that is to distract you from the sheer inanity of waiting for the bus. Sitting there, literally just waiting for something, is what Sightseeing is at its core. At least a bus has a time table they rarely keep to, Sightseeing puts you purely in the hands of a RNG.

If Sightseeing was actually something you could do, rather than waiting to do, then it would be extra silly content.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You've completely missed my point; Do you consider waiting for the bus a silly diversion or extra content in your day? Yes you can listen to music, or check your phone while waiting for the bus, but that is to distract you from the sheer inanity of waiting for the bus. Sitting there, literally just waiting for something, is what Sightseeing is at its core. At least a bus has a time table they rarely keep to, Sightseeing puts you purely in the hands of a RNG.

If Sightseeing was actually something you could do, rather than waiting to do, then it would be extra silly content.

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No. He isn't. What you've done however is fail to answer a simple question and instead disparaged him and provided a strawman instead.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You've completely missed my point; Do you consider waiting for the bus a silly diversion or extra content in your day?

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"The Sightseeing Log is not extra content!"
"Can you explain why? Because if it's not opionnal, it means that it's mandatory..."
"NO! YOU MISSED MY POINT!"

... what?

Besides, comparing the Sightseeing Log to taking the bus is ridiculous.
Taking the bus in something you need in your everyday life. You HAVE TO wait for it because it's MANDATORY for you to be able to move around the town (according that you can't go by foot or by using your own car). But the Sightseeing Log is far from being mandatory. In fact, it's completly the opposite.
Your comparison makes absolutly no sense. And by saying that, you just proved me right: you are taking that content way too seriously and are missing the point of its design.

Jesus, people are still whining about this? I knocked out my Sightseeing log in a week or so a few months ago, and I didn't even have a weather NPC to easymode it. If you don't think it's fun and/or the rewards aren't good enough for you, then don't do it. Just don't complain about it to the people who did enjoy it and argue that it should be taken away because you'll get no sympathy from us.

There's a really huge problem with this "I don't like this thing and therefore you shouldn't either" mentality.

If you want a direct answer, instead of me explaining the point he missed. No. I don't consider Sightseeing to be content, at all.

Waiting is not content. Waiting is waiting.

I consider the clues, lore and minion to be fun pieces of extra content that have been completely f&cked over by a shameless time sink, a time sink some people seem to want to defend.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Jesus, people are still whining about this? I knocked out my Sightseeing log in a week a few months ago, and I didn't even have a weather NPC to easymode it. If you don't think it's fun and/or the rewards aren't good enough for you, then don't do it. Just don't complain about it to the people who did enjoy it and argue that it should be taken away because you'll get no sympathy from us.

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How about the people who did enjoy it and have got their Log filled just avoid these threads, instead? I'll defend my points, if you've already cleared the content I don't really see why you're here or care. The could replace the entirety of the Sightseeing Log with a cutscene of a pink elephant that hands out the minion and it wouldn't effect you.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

There's a really huge problem with this "I don't like this thing and therefore you shouldn't either" mentality.

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Not what I'm saying at all, but your side of the camp seems to love straw mans, so whatever.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/small-violin.gif