Holy trinity.. Or maybe not.

I hope SE Ninja fixes ramuh exm to make this a non viable strat. I say this as a DRG btw.

Oh noes, how am I going to deal with it? Maybe I should pick up my bow or staff and wipe my tears with them while killing ramuh.

The only problem I have with this is that is making the fight way too easy and i've heard the fight was already easy even without this method. Ramuh must be the most disappointing primal ever.

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Originally Posted by Mishari

Goldsmith does not exist in this game? D:

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Goldsmith is GSM...

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Originally Posted by Edli

Oh noes, how am I going to deal with it? Maybe I should pick up my bow or staff and wipe my tears with them while killing ramuh.

The only problem I have with this is that is making the fight way too easy and i've heard the fight was already easy even without this method. Ramuh must be the most disappointing primal ever.

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If it's so easy, people wouldn't come up with the idea of using Titan-Egi to get two more DPS in order to meet DPS-checks.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

If it's so easy, people wouldn't come up with the idea of using Titan-Egi to get two more DPS in order to meet DPS-checks.

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People would come up with everything if it means to make it even easier. If people could they would find a method that would allow them to sleep during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Edli

Oh noes, how am I going to deal with it? Maybe I should pick up my bow or staff and wipe my tears with them while killing ramuh.

The only problem I have with this is that is making the fight way too easy and i've heard the fight was already easy even without this method. Ramuh must be the most disappointing primal ever.

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IMO its certainly harder than any primal before it. Not that it says much.

I hope this method gets nerfed into the ground.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Goldsmith is GSM...

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It's GLD in the german version. :)

I hope this method doesn't get nerfed, it's cool.

If you're fighting what's currently the last primal in the game chances are you have a second 50 you can take. The beauty of the 'everyone can be everything' system is that even if players find a way to exclude tank classes/jobs they (generally) haven't excluded tank players.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I hope this method doesn't get nerfed, it's cool.

If you're fighting what's currently the last primal in the game chances are you have a second 50 you can take. The beauty of the 'everyone can be everything' system is that even if players find a way to exclude tank classes/jobs they (generally) haven't excluded tank players.

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While the method is fun, I've tried it once to see if this was actually a thing, it literally cheeses every single mechanic in this fight and makes it comparable to hard mode. What's the point of having an "extreme mode" if it can just be cheesed to the difficulty of hard mode, it makes no sense and it isn't fun after the first few times, it's just like, wdf SE. It literally allows you to ignore every single mechanic aside from cleanse and rolling thunder, while completely trivializing the later.

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Originally Posted by Mishari

It's GLD in the german version. :)

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/stubborn on
But we're writing in english!
/stubborn off

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Originally Posted by NOC_EU

FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn Hotfixes (Jul. 15, 2014)

The following issues have been addressed:

An issue in “The Striking Tree (Hard)” and “The Striking Tree (Extreme)”, wherein the damage taken by pets was abnormally low.

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Well then.. It seems like they were paying attention! Haha...

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Originally Posted by NOC_EU

The following issues have been addressed:
- In The Striking Tree (Hard) and The Striking Tree (Extreme) the damage taken by pets was abnormally low.

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So, SE has spoken.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Well then.. It seems like they were paying attention! Haha...

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Great news!

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Well then.. It seems like they were paying attention! Haha...

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Honestly, considering the timing between when people figured out this method and the fix, I think they knew about it already from internal testing.
Probably didn't consider it so big an issue as to delay the 2.3 release though.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Honestly, considering the timing between when people figured out this method and the fix, I think they knew about it already from internal testing.
Probably didn't consider it so big an issue as to delay the 2.3 release though.

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I can see that, I'm just glad it was acknowledged as a serious problem.

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Originally Posted by MissE

It has nothing to do with elemental, unless you are being sarcastic.

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It was sarcasm, because logic clearly has no place in a video game... and SE apparently agrees and has already nerfed it :(

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Originally Posted by Amarathval

It was sarcasm, because logic clearly has no place in a video game... and SE apparently agrees and has already nerfed it :(

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Yeah, well not in this game. I remember the first time I was using fire to fight Firemane in Halatali .... lol

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

While the method is fun, I've tried it once to see if this was actually a thing, it literally cheeses every single mechanic in this fight and makes it comparable to hard mode. What's the point of having an "extreme mode" if it can just be cheesed to the difficulty of hard mode, it makes no sense and it isn't fun after the first few times, it's just like, wdf SE. It literally allows you to ignore every single mechanic aside from cleanse and rolling thunder, while completely trivializing the later.

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Fair enough, I haven't tried it myself. If it makes it as easy as HM then yes it should be nerfed somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

/stubborn on
But we're writing in english!
/stubborn off

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Was ist, Deutsch wenn nicht eine älter Englisch?
(I really hope I typed that right.)

The fact that people were even willing to do this as more than a joke is telling of far deeper gameplay issues. Right now, tanks are not only undesiriable to play, they're undesirable to HAVE. Nobody wants a tank! We'd rather have another DPS, or even another healer. But not a tank.

I think to make tanking fun AND to make more interesting fights in the future, tanks need to have stats closer to melee dps. Right now, boss attacks and adds are finely divided into "You need to tank this because it will kill everyone else in five seconds" and "You don't need to tank this because the damage it does is a joke and you can probably second wind it off". I don't like it.


The core reason people complain about fights that require two tanks is because tanks, right now, don't contribute anything outside of being something for the boss to hit, and that needs to change. Hell the final boss of Stone Vigil HM is pretty much proof that the entire tank role is holding the game BACK.

I actually think Frontlines is the most fun a tank can have. You're ACTIVELY defending people by boosting their defense or debuffing the enemy's damage or immobilizing them, while at the same time being an unkillable pain in the ass. You can also do this to a limited degree with the Steropes fate by holmganging him when he goes berserk (In theory. I didn't try it. But you SHOULD be able to, because it's awesome). This is the kind of stuff tanks need to be doing more of to justify ever having more than one of them, or even one at all. And fights and stats need to be balanced to REQUIRE it. If Testudo was a PvE skill you can be sure a PLD offtank would be a lot more desirable than it is.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Does anyone else find it odd that Ramuh is now actually easier to do if you kick the tanks to the curb?

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Titan-Egi is still a tank. The holy trinity stood regardless if it was a player or not.

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Originally Posted by Immut

The fact that people were even willing to do this as more than a joke is telling of far deeper gameplay issues. Right now, tanks are not only undesiriable to play, they're undesirable to HAVE. Nobody wants a tank! We'd rather have another DPS, or even another healer. But not a tank.

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God forbid someone take that 5k damage hit that would one shot every other player. Yeah, we don't need players like that. -_-
Of course people would take more dps if they could, but It doesn't mean you'll survive the fight. The monsters hit very hard and you need someone to take that hit and to hold monsters in one place to make dps positional requirements easy to meet. On those point alone it is very desirable to have tanks. Period. Even Titan-Egi was a tank in the Ramuh situation. Without the tank you're all going to die.

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Originally Posted by Immut

The core reason people complain about fights that require two tanks is because tanks, right now, don't contribute anything outside of being something for the boss to hit, and that needs to change. Hell the final boss of Stone Vigil HM is pretty much proof that the entire tank role is holding the game BACK.

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Well, the purpose of a tank is to tank sooo....

Also, not too sure you are aware of this but each tank class has a tank "stance" that can be turned on or off, so tanks that know what they are doing are able to switch that stance appropriately in the fights where they are swapping. Sure, this is never going to push out as much dps as an actual dps class but what would be the point of a high dps tank class? Then you would see an extreme over abundance of people playing that class, because it would pretty much eleminate the need for real dps classes that do not have a huge pool of hp and defense.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

God forbid someone take that 5k damage hit that would one shot every other player. Yeah, we don't need players like that. -_-
Of course people would take more dps if they could, but It doesn't mean you'll survive the fight. The monsters hit very hard and you need someone to take that hit and to hold monsters in one place to make dps positional requirements easy to meet. On those point alone it is very desirable to have tanks. Period. Even Titan-Egi was a tank in the Ramuh situation. Without the tank you're all going to die.

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Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Well, the purpose of a tank is to tank sooo....

Also, not too sure you are aware of this but each tank class has a tank "stance" that can be turned on or off, so tanks that know what they are doing are able to switch that stance appropriately in the fights where they are swapping. Sure, this is never going to push out as much dps as an actual dps class but what would be the point of a high dps tank class? Then you would see an extreme over abundance of people playing that class, because it would pretty much eleminate the need for real dps classes that do not have a huge pool of hp and defense.

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Seriously, I don't get how people can completely miss the scale of the post like this.

You can already substitute a highly geared warrior for DPS in most content. People don't do it because the survivability of your DPS doesn't actually matter. They aren't expected to get hit by anything that actually does damage. With the current game design, the only difference between a dps class and a tank class is the sliding scale of defense vs damage and the ability to generate enmity. There is more difference in gameplay between a ranged dps and a melee dps than there is between a melee dps and a tank.

Imagine Testudo was a PvE skill, and then imagine a fight with many adds. Strong ones that don't die in two hits and too many of them for two tanks to reasonably handle. The PLD uses Testudo on the Dragoon, their survivability goes up dramatically and they're able to tank an add or two themselves. That adds dynamism to the roles. It also gives PLD a reason to show up, even if they're not tanking the boss, because it would enhance the survivability of the entire party for each successive tank, and it makes armor and HP actually matter for classes that aren't explicitly tanks.

The fact that each role in this game is so pigeonholed is the reason why fights need to be so mechanical and gimmicky.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

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Because you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

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Trying to break away from the Holy Trinity has been tried and failed before numerous times. the latest being GW2 where the majority of encounters simple became a giant game of dodge all the mechanics.

Note: going to use dealing damage as an example of an added ability to tanking

A tank needs to take the hits at the cost of dealing damage. If a tank can deal a worthwhile amount of damage, then the meta would be to have all tanky dps. Now that everyone can take the hits, the point of tanking becomes trivial and it's now just a game where everyone tries to survive.

Strategy gets tossed to the wind when the status que is changed...

You just can't make tanks be more then what they are, something to strategically take the hits for others to survive.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

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Because your suggestion is terrible with serious repercussions in the way fights are handled. The status quo exists for a reason. Tanks give players the ability to control the fight and the means to develop and execute specific strategies. Simply put it's because it works. Without that tool fights would turn into nothing more than zergs which would be a chaotic and stupid way to handle end game fights.

If you like zerging so much then go fight fates. Serious battles are not zerg fests, and should not be zerg fests. They involve planning, strategy, and execution. Removing the primary linchpin of the process would be a bad move. Homogenizing the tank and dps into one class makes the game more boring because everyone is the same.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

If you like zerging so much then go fight fates. Serious battles are not zerg fests, and should not be zerg fests. They involve planning, strategy, and execution. Removing the primary linchpin of the process would be a bad move. Homogenizing the tank and dps into one class makes the game more boring because everyone is the same.

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Ok first off, I never said to do that. I said to blur the lines and make tanks more teamwork-oriented instead of being totally self serving.

Second, if the game were entirely Conjurers and Lancers with all their AAs, not only would it be a better game, but the only thing you would need to change about any given fight are the numbers involved. That's how badly tanks are designed right now.

Edit: I say conjurer and lancer because that's what we had in beta phase 1. But arcanist and marauder would be way more fun.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Ok first off, I never said to do that. I said to blur the lines and make tanks more teamwork-oriented instead of being totally self serving.

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You mean like working together with a second tank to swap and handle extra adds? Woah, dat teamwork! You don't seem to have a very good idea of how much teamwork I have to do on many fights. I constantly work with the other tank to make fights go smooth. Sure it's not in all fights because honestly sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's a little more simple than the others but it is there in many battles. If that isn't teamwork to you then you might need to look up the definition of the word.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Second, if the game were entirely Conjurers and Lancers with all their AAs, not only would it be a better game, but the only thing you would need to change about any given fight are the numbers involved. That's how badly tanks are designed right now.

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That's entirely subjective and you are allowed to have that opinion. I personally think that would be a bad game, boring, and would be worse than what we have. You clearly want zergs. Go do fates.

I remember when the "holy Trinity" was tank, healer, mezzer (crowd control). DPS wasnt part of it, but a given.

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Originally Posted by Codek

Trying to break away from the Holy Trinity has been tried and failed before numerous times. the latest being GW2 where the majority of encounters simple became a giant game of dodge all the mechanics.

Note: going to use dealing damage as an example of an added ability to tanking

A tank needs to take the hits at the cost of dealing damage. If a tank can deal a worthwhile amount of damage, then the meta would be to have all tanky dps. Now that everyone can take the hits, the point of tanking becomes trivial and it's now just a game where everyone tries to survive.

Strategy gets tossed to the wind when the status que is changed...

You just can't make tanks be more then what they are, something to strategically take the hits for others to survive.

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That's exactly what I was getting at, but worded way better.

Ten points to Leviathan!

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Originally Posted by Immut

Ok first off, I never said to do that. I said to blur the lines and make tanks more teamwork-oriented instead of being totally self serving.

Second, if the game were entirely Conjurers and Lancers with all their AAs, not only would it be a better game, but the only thing you would need to change about any given fight are the numbers involved. That's how badly tanks are designed right now.

Edit: I say conjurer and lancer because that's what we had in beta phase 1. But arcanist and marauder would be way more fun.

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Ok, I'm getting really confused, first you say keep tanks, then you say the game would be better with only one DPS class and one Healing class, no tanks at all. Which one is it?

Also, call me crazy but I'm not sure how soaking up all of the damage a boss is dealing so the team doesn't wipe is self serving for a tank.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Also, call me crazy but I'm not sure how soaking up all of the damage a boss is dealing so the team doesn't wipe is self serving for a tank.

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Quoted for truth.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Ok, I'm getting really confused, first you say keep tanks, then you say the game would be better with only one DPS class and one Healing class, no tanks at all. Which one is it?

Also, call me crazy but I'm not sure how soaking up all of the damage a boss is dealing so the team doesn't wipe is self serving for a tank.

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All I seem to get from his post is to make mobs hit less so DPS can "tank", which then removes tanks. However, it would be kinda boring at that point.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Tanks could go out of tank stance and be fairly robust DDs with the strat. Not as good as a DD but it still has the advantages of the Titan egi strat.

I think most tanks would be keeping strength accs by now for older content. Use those!

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If the player runs tank + heals its unlikely that he will have any decent strength accessories. All his tomes would be going towards tank and healer stuff, and he'd be the last person in line for DPS equipment in Coil. So I think expecting a tank to have DPS accessories is a bit unrealistic without personally knowing the tank in question.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I personally intend to leave an 'open' spot for tanks in the PF, and put that a tank may join if they are willing to go Sword Oath / No Defiance.

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Challenge accepted

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Also, call me crazy but I'm not sure how soaking up all of the damage a boss is dealing so the team doesn't wipe is self serving for a tank.

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I'm starting to see why SE feels the need to dumb down tanking so much.

Isn't the whole point behind tanks are so that the healers aren't exhausted trying to keep up with the damage for entire parties? Keep it mostly on one point so they don't overextend their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

If the player runs tank + heals its unlikely that he will have any decent strength accessories. All his tomes would be going towards tank and healer stuff, and he'd be the last person in line for DPS equipment in Coil. So I think expecting a tank to have DPS accessories is a bit unrealistic without personally knowing the tank in question.

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...? You can get a full set of i90 Accessories from doing Coil + Myth + old-ex primals. None of which have a cap, and is what most people refer to when they talk about putting on DPS accessories (Because to be fair, your i110 Tank accessories won't have better stat weights than the +13 STR you can get from a single ring)

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Originally Posted by Azure_dragon-

Challenge accepted

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Sadly not an option anymore with SE's nerf =p

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Sadly not an option anymore with SE's nerf =p

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It's alright, our group already did that before the hotfix, and we did it with two tanks ;p

I'm glad someone is willing to take a tank or two and use this strategy, sadly it's all history now.