Did 2.3 create enmity issues for tanks?

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Originally Posted by Machetazzo

Of course DPS should watch their enmity level, but it's about difference in how enmity reacts nowadays.
We are rather discussing a case where tank is as well equipped as DPS and prior to 2.3 had quite some lead in hate (let's say half of the hate bar), after the change it seems to be on the edge of loosing hate in some scenarios while doing the very same thing as before.

I've been running couple of dungs with my folks to verify if it was one time scenario previously as after many many runs with them I have a feeling on how the hate stays and when I should do what. Enmity builds kinda odd in my opinion :/
Feels like an unintended change with the patch, same as lack of response from pets to commands (smash this button, smash it!)

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Or maybe this enmity change is intentional rise of skill cap? I don't know, I just wonder why people says that this has to be a bug.

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Originally Posted by silvach

Or maybe this enmity change is intentional rise of skill cap? I don't know, I just wonder why people says that this has to be a bug.

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From what I've read in the patch notes the only change in enmity should be a single target potency increase of BLM, which is not the issue based on posts in this thread. Fire/Blizz II were not boosted, nor were other classes.
Anyway, it does not make it impossible to tank now, but makes the job harder in my opinion. If it was intended, fair enough, but if not then it is something worth SE taking look at as plenty users have same impression it seems.

Seeing how behaviour changed in response of pets with the modification of their abilities (it is accepted bug asaik) I would say there is quite some chance that SE messed up some settings in code for Oaths/Defiance while modifying settings of those skills with automatic activation after death :)

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Originally Posted by Machetazzo

From what I've read in the patch notes the only change in enmity should be a single target potency increase of BLM, which is not the issue based on posts in this thread. Fire/Blizz II were not boosted, nor were other classes.
Anyway, it does not make it impossible to tank now, but makes the job harder in my opinion. If it was intended, fair enough, but if not then it is something worth SE taking look at as plenty users have same impression it seems.

Seeing how behaviour changed in response of pets with the modification of their abilities (it is accepted bug asaik) I would say there is quite some chance that SE messed up some settings in code for Oaths/Defiance while modifying settings of those skills with automatic activation after death

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I never, ever let the game do something as important as applying Shield Oath automatically. First time after the patch, when I had my Shiled Oath automatically applied after death I actually thought it can be UI bug that the icon stays there but the actual effect is not applied. Since then I always recast it (when entering any instance, or when dying). However, I don't have enough experience to say if even after re-applying the Shield Oath the enmity generator went down or not. Simply because majority of time I spend playing this game was pre 40 and doing dungeons pre Shield Oath with rolette full of ilvl100 DPS and healers was a true nightmare where I had to maximize everything and pay attention to every-single-mob (calculating the rotation and in-betweens CDs to maintain the aggro on pulls). Since lvl 40 it's so, so, so much easier that possible drop in enmity is not noticeable for me.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I normally never have hate issues on PLD but now I am. i95 weapon and I can't keep hate against anyone with an i100 weapon. I'm pretty good at keeping hate, at least I thought.... :(

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My friend and I were running expert roulette yesterday, and while he was on his PLD he was having hate issues. I was my SMN and even I got into the orange / red zone. He commented how he had to use flash a lot more this time around. Later went on my warrior, with the exception of Tam Tara where you have that one room with a crazy ton of adds..I had no hate issues.

Yes, I noticed it too. SOmetimes I feel like the shield oath was never on, it especially happens when I enter the dungeon with shield oath applied before instance, or after the wipe.

as warrior i haven't had any problems. while i've only played paladin for coil and ramuh since the patch, i haven't seen any issue there either. but maybe i'm just lucky or its the way i play? but regardless of what i do, i always do whatever i can to generate as much hate as possible so that could be part of why.

As a i lvl 103 tank with i lvl 100 weapon I have had some hate problems running dungeons as well so I had to change up my play style a little I have
Actually had to start using provoke. Who knows maybe just the machanics of the new dungeons to try and prevent speed runs. Ill let you all known how it is after I get my novus.

I've tanked some more since my post on page 2 and still didn't encounter any issues.

My boyfriend said he had lots of issues as an i103 PLD before the patch a few days ago. I have an i92 PLD, which is clearly significantly less geared than his, and I've found that BLMs are ripping hate off me like crazy, even after the fix. It's almost as if they buffed their skills but didn't balance their enmity properly. They're the class that cause me the most stress, but I found that even an i95 Summoner and Dragoon can come incredibly close to ripping hate now. I don't remember having this much trouble in Bray HM.

I was in ST the other day as a PLD fighting the second boss, and I ran to the spawn point for the clockwork squire. The second he spawned, I lobbed and comboed over and over trying to keep him where he started, which is where you want him. He ran a bit, turned around, and started hitting me. Great! Then, while I was still doing combo after combo, his aggro icon suddenly turned yellow, his target switched to a SMN in another alliance on the other side of the map, and he ran away from me. I provoked, it did nothing. I ran after him, and I could not get him to stop hitting the SMN no matter what I did. As a result, we wiped, and I felt like a total newb. The SMN, btw, was well out of targetting range for me, so I don't think he could have been even attacking the Squire, and I don't see how he could have DoTed it since he was never in range until the aggro shift.

I still have no idea what happened there. Has anyone experienced anything like that?

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Originally Posted by Destinova

As a i lvl 103 tank with i lvl 100 weapon I have had some hate problems running dungeons as well so I had to change up my play style a little I have
Actually had to start using provoke. Who knows maybe just the machanics of the new dungeons to try and prevent speed runs. Ill let you all known how it is after I get my novus.

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During my coil 2 runs I did not have any aggro problems.

Maybe it's just because people have easy acces to ilvl 100 and 110 weapon, try to tank with a zenith weapon against against dps that has unweathered sold weapon => You're going to have enmity issue.

In my point of view i didn't notice any change in my enmity since 2.3.

I have absolutely been having issues tanking on my pld. I do the same combos I usually do but it's mostly an issue keeping hate on group mobs. I noticed it most in Tam Tara hard mode, where there are 2-3 monsters connected by a line to another monster. So I go in there with shield lob and spam flash and do the mp drain move that I can't remember right now and I'm still losing hate on some of them.

Either I lose one or two or I'm really struggling to keep them all. I even had the healer taking hate off me and he could not have been above i90. At the time I was i92 and all I could think was that I guess my dps friends are just much better geared then me and that's why I'm losing hate but they are about i95 or i96.
I would think I would still be able to keep hate effectively at that difference. I've since tried to raise my gear as much as possible but I still feel like I'm having trouble keeping hate. I'm now i94 or i95

Our group didnt notice any enmity issues, enmity is same as before but ppl have easier acces to higher ilvl and since tank enmity scales slower than dps enmity due to using vit accessory it can cause some problems for lower ilvl tanks. You can always use some dps accesory anyway cuz you dont realy need 10k hp except for i think coil9(we are at t8 still). Our tanks usualy stop going for vit at 7,2/9k hp and use dps accessory.

But what we encoutered is some weird mob behavior since 2.3 or one of the hotfixes after it in T6 and T7.

What is happening in T6 is that when slugs spawn and our offtank uses cyclone to get aggro, they go for main tank(0 enmity since hes not attacking them) and once they reach him do nothing and then go back to offtank that have fullaggro whole time. Similar thing happen in T7 with adds that on spawn they go for random party member, usualy our bard or smn(again they dont even started to attack those ads = 0 enmity) do nothing to them and then go back to offtank. Its not like before patch when you didnt react fast enough before the mob "activation" and they gone usualy for healer, hit him with skill and go back to offtank. This is not the case, our tanks have 100% aggro on them.

I noticed this after patch, adds go to MT always in my group but do hit him and go back to OT. It was probably intentional to prevent adds from going to healers.

Do NOT hit...(can't edit on phone wdh lol)

I think since the update the update cycle for enmity seems to has been adjusted. So when a tank looses hate anytime during a server check the mob will always turn no delay, so maybe an adjustment to priorty between finishing current qued actions compared to enmity. I doubt its related to the blm umbral tick but that is the only actual update to time scales we have recieved. The issue with peeling enemies off in the new dungeons though I think is a reflection of the strength of those mobs compared to previous so damage enmity compared to healing enmity healing enmity would be uneffected by the mob as it is generated with out influence from the mob.

No, it didn't. Haven't had any issues what so ever.

Maybe there's a bug, but weapons are becoming more important for threat as the current ilevels mature. A Zenith relic isn't good enough to hold threat against high powered dps. And while average ilvl is important for tank survivability, it's a bit misleading. The weapon ilvl is the main factor for building threat.

I still have no idea why FFXIV doesn't simply bump up tank threat generation. In almost no other MMO do tanks have to fight so hard for aggro. Usually tanks are responsible for using their abilities, interrupting, positioning, targeting the right enemies. As long as tanks are attacking, basic aggro isn't a problem. Tanks usually need to worry about gearing up their armor more than making sure their weapons are top notch ... and then FFXIV tanks still have terrible dps (compared to real dps classes) even with decent weapons ...

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Maybe there's a bug, but weapons are becoming more important for threat as the current ilevels mature. A Zenith relic isn't good enough to hold threat against high powered dps. And while average ilvl is important for tank survivability, it's a bit misleading. The weapon ilvl is the main factor for building threat.

I still have no idea why FFXIV doesn't simply bump up tank threat generation. In almost no other MMO do tanks have to fight so hard for aggro. Usually tanks are responsible for using their abilities, interrupting, positioning, targeting the right enemies. As long as tanks are attacking, basic aggro isn't a problem. Tanks usually need to worry about gearing up their armor more than making sure their weapons are top notch ... and then FFXIV tanks still have terrible dps (compared to real dps classes) even with decent weapons ...

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Don't get me wrong, but I was doing 8m dungeon last night and had this ilvl110 BLM in my team. I have ilvl55 weapon and had no issues with holding the aggro. He was above the average of anyone else but not even half-way to me in the aggro table for the entire fight. So it's either boss related / dungeon related issue or you should work up your enmity per gcd.

As a Warrior tank, I haven't had any problems, or noticed anyone any closer on threat then pre 2.3. Threat seems the same. My PLD co-tank has mentioned that he feels something has changed with AoE threat for him. I'm not sure. He hasn't had any issue in T6, and has spoken mostly on Expert dungeons.

There does seem to be something that has changed with mob pickups though. For instance the T6 slugs definitely run toward boss/MT first, even when they haven't been touched by MT. This has happened in both our FC raid groups.

In T7 I definitely noticed odd behavior with Lamia pickups. I'd hit with a Skull Sunder within .5 seconds of its spawn, and it'd run out to mid and back. This isn't the usual, move because of slow pickup, or healer built aggroe, it was on me and had me targeted 100% of the time. It would happen with Tomahawk pickups from far one as well. Nothing unmanageable, but just messed up starting threat/IB mitigation a little. I noticed this problem in another one of our FC raid groups, so it wasn't just me there.

T8 nothing weird with Dreadnaught pickup. Ran straight for tank in both groups.

T9 I don't really recall any strange behavior on Golems. They seemed to stick and not run around much in both weeks since patch.

Syrcus Tower, no issue on any threat gen or add pickups. I usually tank everything at once, and never lose threat unless an impatient DPS/heal pulls the trigger before the group gathers.

Expert dungeons, I have no issues. I just noticed things are spread a little different, with more mixed range and hitboxes. Also they generally form different triangle spread out formations that cause AoE threat moves to miss if the group isn't brought together right. So in my opinion, there could be a phantom ShO/Defiance error that snuck in (happened before, so possible) but I personally am not noticing or seeing it.

My experience is my PLD aggro gone worse.

Haukke manor, ONE only mob, full rotation on it, and that dies with blm aggro at 90%. BLM were leveling and not synced i100. I were used to even don't notice any aggro on party members if one mob only. Something changed for sure.

yeah blm buff happen, been in one of the lower guildhests and could not hold aggro on single mob againts blm and i even have +30 str
without shiled oath/sword oath and ofgcd abilities .... and dont talk me about the giant guildhest where you dont even have the shield lob, i forgot about it and did not flash at inc, could not hold aggro at all T_T

Hmm... haven't seen any problems not as going as a tank or a dps. also haven't heard anything from tanks in the party. The mobs already before 2.3 had the bad habit of going straight for someone else at the start even if tank pulled it - so about 1-2 second aggro lag.

Also same as before in standard dungeons - on low lvl paladin's can't hold aggro against dps. And on high dungeons - if I am OP gear wise in relation to tank i pull aggro at the start, but after that they easily overtake me. if the tank is on the same ilvl as me there is no problem.

So might be a random glitch.

Hope this won't be used as a standard reply by tanks when they lose aggro from now on ;)

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Originally Posted by xnonamex

Hope this won't be used as a standard reply by tanks when they lose aggro from now on ;)

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Exactly this. Lazy people tend to blame game mechanics other than themselves. I had not problem with tanking pre patch and post patch even on the lvl50 dungeons with ilvl55 weapon while having ilvl100 dpses. My friend warrior does not have any hate issues as well. So unless it is a glitch that happens once out of hundreds times you should think about changing something about your tanking.

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Originally Posted by Traek

In T7 I definitely noticed odd behavior with Lamia pickups. I'd hit with a Skull Sunder within .5 seconds of its spawn, and it'd run out to mid and back. This isn't the usual, move because of slow pickup, or healer built aggroe, it was on me and had me targeted 100% of the time. It would happen with Tomahawk pickups from far one as well. Nothing unmanageable, but just messed up starting threat/IB mitigation a little. I noticed this problem in another one of our FC raid groups, so it wasn't just me there.

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Yeah this def happens, I think the best way to keep them under control is to queue up BB and then hit them as they spawn/move towards the middle. Kind of run with them as BB goes off, then back away towards your desired position and tomahawk. Ive had mild success with this, and keeps them from running around all crazy like.

We had the aggro issue in Ramuh Ex on Sunday, it was okay the first round but after we wiped and restarted, tanks couldn't establish hate no matter what. We did discover though that after reset, the tanks would re-apply Oath / Defiance and there wasn't an issue after that. Hate was solid. That's what I have been doing with my own tank jobs, when I die I just re-apply defiance / oaths and I don't seem to have any problems holding hate.

I hope this helps aggro issues after death, not sure about initial hate, I haven't experienced the issue myself or seen it with the tanks I run with on sch / whm.

Yeah, I haven't had any aggro issues since I started re-applying Shield Oath regularly. I do it after death, after level sync, and after zoning, just to be safe.

I have also been having that odd "initial target" issue with Slugs and Lamias.

I normally tank Rafflesia past 40%, so when the Slugs spawn, they go right after me, and return to the PLD tank after they hit me once. I compensate for this by holding Raff in the center until I see that they slugs hit me, usually 3 small hits within 1 second, then I move her back.

As for Lamias... ugh.
As Traek said, they seem to target someone "as" they spawn, and even if I have aggro on it as soon as I can target it and hit a combo'ed Skull Sunder, it will still run across the arena to some seemingly random person... more often than not, it goes after our bard kiter / renaud placer, gives them an angry look (but doesnt actually hit them), then comes back to me.
All in all, this tends to cost us about 2 gcds, and is slowing down our kill speed on the adds.

One other thing to note. I dont recall this kind of behavior occurring right after 2.3, instead it feels like it started after the hotfix to raise Mark HP, and make them immune to Provoke.

I highly doubt that this was intended, as it makes endgame fights feel very clunky. Any chance of seeing a quick dev/GM comment regarding this issue?

Quick update:

Did T7 again tonight. If I try to get initial aggro on a Deathdancer using a melee range attack, like a combo'ed Skull Sunder or Steel Cyclone, it will just run away from me, go to someone, look at them, and come back.

If I use Tomahawk, it will start running to someone, BUT THEN, it actually comes back to me as soon as the attack connects... Sometimes it takes 2 if there's a bit too much healing aggro at that moment. But Tomahawk seems to fix this issue for T7.

I'm willing to bet this is a problem with the new "automatically re-apply Defiance / Shield Oath" mechanic, because I haven't had any issues, or seen any issues, but I know people like me just refresh Defiance upon entering a duty or wiping out of habit.

I've just got out of SV(HM)and experienced an enmity rip issue with my healer, who was barely doing anything. Haven't run with any other ranged outside of ST so not sure, but the healer rip has never happened to me before. Ripped off of Steel Cyclone + Overpower before first enemy died.

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Originally Posted by Uliq

I've just got out of SV(HM)and experienced an enmity rip issue with my healer, who was barely doing anything. Haven't run with any other ranged outside of ST so not sure, but the healer rip has never happened to me before. Ripped off of Steel Cyclone + Overpower before first enemy died.

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Doing Steel Cyclone + Overpower you do 1575 enmity in 2 gcds. When opening with Flash+OP you would do 1950 enmity.

Not saying you do it wrong. But unless you crit, you should not open with SC.

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Originally Posted by silvach

Doing Steel Cyclone + Overpower you do 1575 enmity in 2 gcds. When opening with Flash+OP you would do 1950 enmity.

Not saying you do it wrong. But unless you crit, you should not open with SC.

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Isnt SC strongest aoe enmity skill since 2.1 ? How the hell flash + OP would be better than SC + OP ?

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

Isnt SC strongest aoe enmity skill since 2.1 ? How the hell flash + OP would be better than SC + OP ?

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SC has 200 potency without any enmity multiplier. It's further reduced by defiance (however not fully). Flash is equal to 500 potency skill multiplied by defiance and not reduced by the 25% debuff. Do the math, unless you are unchained and Maim / Berserk buffed you will not do more enmity with SC than with flash.

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Originally Posted by silvach

SC has 200 potency without any enmity multiplier. It's further reduced by defiance (however not fully). Flash is equal to 500 potency skill multiplied by defiance and not reduced by the 25% debuff. Do the math, unless you are unchained and Maim / Berserk buffed you will not do more enmity with SC than with flash.

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sc have enmity multiplier since 2.1 i think its x3, also its not reduced by defiance like IB which means its a lot stronger than flash

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

sc have enmity multiplier since 2.1 i think its x3, also its not reduced by defiance like IB which means its a lot stronger than flash

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My bad. It does more than flash then (17% more). Sorry for that.

Flash is ~495 base potency, reduced to 75% by Defiance, then doubled... So 742.5
Steel Cyclone is 200 base potency, 3x natural hate mod, no reduction from Defiance, and doubled... 1200

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Quick update:

Did T7 again tonight. If I try to get initial aggro on a Deathdancer using a melee range attack, like a combo'ed Skull Sunder or Steel Cyclone, it will just run away from me, go to someone, look at them, and come back.

If I use Tomahawk, it will start running to someone, BUT THEN, it actually comes back to me as soon as the attack connects... Sometimes it takes 2 if there's a bit too much healing aggro at that moment. But Tomahawk seems to fix this issue for T7.

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Mmm, I don't really think it fixes it. I am pretty positive last night when helping another group that I saw multiple times, (and it happened to my WAR when I picked up) that the tomahawk would still hit and have the add run to even a BRD at times who literally didn't have it targeted but was just in the vicinity.

I agree with the Skull Sunder/SC though. Just some weird target acquisition going on or something. I hope SE looks into this. It isn't game breaking, but definitely a little sloppy. The T6 issue I notice is also a pain for PLDs trying to keep aggroe over AoE healing WHMs. If the MT doesn't sit next to the party till the slugs hit them, the OT can really only get one flash before they run way out of range to run straight back to the PLD.

As far as straight enmity, I'm still not seeing it. Sounds like what people are reporting is the similar glitch of SwO > ShO before. Buff shows up but not the effect, and maybe something similar now with Defiance. Turning the buff off, then back on, was also the fix for that before. So if people are wanting a temporary answer, that is the best one. Hopefully SE looks into this and gets back to us.

Is flash multiplier the same on war and pld? War doesn't give the blind status.