Consern regarding Brutal Mode

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Wow the genre has changed 100% from what it use to be, where now vanity and mounts > progression.

When people think a title is a worthwhile reward for hardwork. Guess I am showing my age. SE should be adding options for variety in content, meaningful stuff to do. Why not have the coils 1-5 brutal mode drop Ilvl110 stuff. Give us more to do during the week instead of the current ungodly state of lack of content they seem to be keeping us in.

The problem with rewards is the whole ridiculous notion that everyone must have access to everything. Was one of the great things of mmos of the past the devs did not care if a part of the playerbase couldn't do something because of thier lives or skill level.

Either way I will do what some have said. I will not partake in the content, it is just meaningless and boarding insanity to do it in my eyes. I cannot see many people doing this content at all though, hardcore/midcore/or casual.

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I think there might be a disconnect then. From my understanding, they are doing this now because they don't have to do any new development, and want to gauge an interest. If there is enough interest, my takeaway from the interview yesterday was they would look at having the "brutal" mode and the "normal" version. I'm jumping to conclusions here, and have no basis for this, but what I would envision is this scenario if it were live today and not being considered for the future:

1.) Normal SCoB would be all 100 items. Some of the mechanics might be toned down slightly. Weapon is 110.
2.) "Brutal" SCoB would be all 110 items. Mechanics are tuned more tightly. Weapon is 115.

personally i think it will be a huuuuge error to add more ilevel difference... actually i110 stuff are useless outside of BC2... nothing outside the raid ask you this stuff. add more stuff that make you more powerfull for what? destroy more, any content outside the raid, that they will add later? it's stupid.
what they can do, is give the same armor (in stat) but allows the fact to dye the armor from the brutal. like this, people that did choose to beat the brutal will have an armor that can be dye and will look different.
for the weapon, add an effect on the brutal version. but outside cosmetic stuff, i think it's really an error that wow did in the past to reward more stats for complet hard mode.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I do not understand the crowd that wants to do it for the sake of doing it with no rewards.

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Mountain climbers don't have a pot of gold waiting for them at the end of the climb.

The crowd that is intrigued by Binding Coil Brutal is not a crowd that would even give a shit about whether or not it would give a reward. It probably could give literally nothing - the players that seek thrills and incredible challenges would rise up to it and do it anyway.

Plenty of FF optional bosses give you absolutely nothing - or functionally nothing, given that "If you can beat it you no longer need it". People still challenge them for the sake of challenging and defeating them.

If you do not understand what the crowd seeking a challenge finds rewarding about it, Brutal Coil is not for you. If it did have a somehow significant reward, you would likely find it endlessly frustrating for there to be something locked behind something like Brutal Coil, because you clearly are not the type to enjoy a challenge. And that's it, that's all there is to it.

Yoshi said you'll get exclusive titles for beating the bosses so that's enough to me. The fact that brutal mode is supposedly so hard that the devs can't even beat it means that the majority of players won't be getting past it most likely. I don't think the most epic things in the game should come out of things that nobody can beat, that's why we have standard coil, it's still hard and generally has all the BiS items. To me the only reason people will attempt brutal mode is for fun and bragging rights and regardless of just getting a standard fancy reward you get a title to prove you did it.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

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It's meant to be a challenge mode, simple as that. Its similar to swtor with nightmare ops. Drops the same gear as hard mode but its just there to challenge people who want the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkander

Brutal Mode should have no reward other than the title, and it's cool as it is. It is something that is not actually meant to be completed, if they put any kind of reward in it people will start complaining that it's too hard and it will eventually be nerfed, defeating the "brutal" purpose.

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The ones who wanted this brutal mode are the ones who said things were too easy in the first place so..let them have a challenge then complain it's not beatable. Then they can get a title..run past me so I can see...nothing because I have titles not showing in my config. But you're right there's nothing more they should be given but a title along with an ego boost. Best of luck to all who take it on though!

Some of the answers in this thread are pretty hilarious. It's like people are terrorized to the thought of items exclusive to the best players.

"Everything must be obtainable" by everyone is sadly the kind of thing that ruined modern mmorpg. Nothing to strive for, lazy players are rewarded, etc.

My own suggestion regarding Brutal Mode is this: if it's meant to be the original version of the challenge, then there should be a maximum ilvl implemented for it. The first coil should be capped at i90, for example. No facerolling this stuff by overgearing.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Sadly, unless there's something in the mechanics of these fights to prevent it, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the announcement of Brutal Modes with special title rewards was... "Oh goody, one more thing for power guilds to sell to the masses along with EX's and Coil Turns".

Be curious to see just how fast the first shout for it goes up in Mor Dhona.

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I doubt it will happen if they only give titles. But if they start add minions and vanity, more people will wanna try/buy it.

This sounds very intriguing to me. I'd go for it, though have yet to enter Coil 2.

For those that say there aren't reasons to do this type of thing beyond the potential for better gear, what about all the videos on YouTube of record speedruns? Or record time kills on Titan Ex? Or solo'ing a 4-man dungeon with SCH? Or people doing CM or Prae with 7 healers and one tank? Or Titan HM with 7 healers and one tank? Or countless other little examples.

People like doing stuff. Sometimes its wild or unusual party make-ups; other times its just for the thrill of doing something as fast as possible. There will be plenty of people (not majority and probably not even half of the gaming population, but enough) going at these brutal modes just for the sake of getting the title. If there is one thing that will grow ego from the seed of battle, this would be it.

And as someone earlier mentioned, I also encourage this type of aspect implemented. Heck, I will probably never do it myself, but may just give it a go if the content is available to me.

I won't chance a lockout on this content until I'm actually geared up from the weaker version of it.

If anything they should be separate lockouts with the "Brutal" version having limited attempts per week or something. That way people can still do the weaker version and continue to get gear to work towards the harder version.

I like this concept. Now we can find out who among the "XIV is too easy" crowd can back their words up and who's just--in the words of the great James Brown--talkin' loud and sayin' nothin'.

It should be title only. If there is gear, it would feel like another gate to the content. But I don't think that is the intention.

My ideal brutal mode: No gear loot, just title or cosmetic. No stupid lockout either please. If you are going to release a fight that isn't progression based but challenge based, at least let people try it whenever, however many time, and with whomever they please.

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Originally Posted by Dude

It should be title only. If there is gear, it would feel like another gate to the content. But I don't think that is the intention.

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That's why I have no problem with vanity drops. It doesn't feel like you have to do it to be considered "viable"... but it would give those players some flashy stuff to show off with their title. It might also give them a reason to repeat the content... to get vanity drops for various slots and/or jobs.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Wow the genre has changed 100% from what it use to be, where now vanity and mounts > progression.

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Meh... the way this game is set-up is that gear is received on farm RNG/tokens based and not because you cleared some interesting battle. If they include the gear, the sense of 'accomplisment' isn't there anyways... why? Oh hey look, your friend got a shiny sword. Now you have to do this shit again for 100+ plus times for said shiny sword unless the RNG gods are kind to you.

Oh... tokens you say? Meh, still farming said content for more than you need. Unless doing 'insane' content 10 times in a row is some sort of accomplishment for you.

Have the super hard battle... have the title so your done with it once it's done and can show it off to your friends. AT LEAST the high allagan will be useful for SOMETHING other than making second coils more farmable...

I agree with everyone saying there should be no gear discrepancy, I want nothing more than a color variant or minion or some kind of vanity physical reward.

Same here, this version of coil 2 was intended not to be beat by even the developers. Its exactly the same situation as IWTBTG where the game developers created impossible mode and somebody beat it and the developers response was something of the line of "LOL WUT? Dude you have no life." So I think content shouldn't be locked behind it, I think its nice that even when we get our best in slot for a particular patch we'll still have something to shoot for rather than more gear thats only useful shortterm next patch.

Now in terms of this game wiether anybody will complete this is a different story. In this game players have a WAY different play style than the game developers (Garuda Ex comes to mind) so what the developers find impossible the player base will probably find solutions for. Only time will tell.

Sorta on topic I find how you spelt the title to be super adorable Amy lol.

On topic: I am fine with it being just a title but if they add something more like you're suggesting then I have nothing against that either. I prefer if it was added for it to be vanity but if isn't then it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkander

Brutal Mode should have no reward other than the title, and it's cool as it is. It is something that is not actually meant to be completed, if they put any kind of reward in it people will start complaining that it's too hard and it will eventually be nerfed, defeating the "brutal" purpose.

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As a completionist, I still feel like I'd need to complete it just to get the title, but with the title being the only exclusive reward, I honestly don't feel like I HAVE to complete it like I do with standard Coil. So I am completely fine with how it is right now.

What's wrong with just the title? I'm nowhere near hardcore about this game, even if I log in 60-70 hours a week, but I kind of want to do this just to get that title to say, "Hey, I did this!" I'd venture to guess there are others like me who want that badge of honour, even if they aren't a hardcore player of this game.

brutal mode is merely meant to appease hardcore raiders who have been complaining that this game lacks difficult content. I think it'll attract plenty of players without needing to offer better gear drops. and I don't think it should offer better gear drops. it's not meant to be part of the vertical progression.

Reading this thread makes me facepalm.

People actually trying to argue they deserve a way to gloat and mock others in the way of special drops. Why not just ask SE to make the reward an emote to flip the finger? Same effect.

Drops should be easy to get because of:
A) Stronger gear makes the game easier, so bad players are the most in need of it, while good players don't need it.
B) If content is too hard for you, you can always enjoy vanity. Unless someone is stupid enough to put the vanity behind even harder content.

Title only is perfect and shows SE is on top of the game. The amount of players who play only for titles and would quit the game because they can't get one title, is probably in the tens. People quitting over vanity or gear is probably closer to thousands.

I would accept dropping tomes and stuff though. I.e. same drops as other places so there is no "forced" reasons to do it.

Or, you know, you could just do it for fun. I know that word is blasphemous in this game, but it can exist.

It isn't meant to be a serious thing for progression, it's there for those who are serious gamers and want a damn good challenge; especially one that even the developers can't beat.

I'm disappointed with the way it's going in based on the description. What they should have done was done a brutal version of the original coil, then you would have 2 raids running side by side with a seperate lockout and loot. Since the idea is brutal will be extremely tough to beat, and the fact that it will always be a patch behind the current coil it's not like you would gear up too quickly with this.

Had another question about this:

If it is brutal, developers can't beat it so even the most hard-core players and progression players may take one to two months to beat it...uhm, why is there a lock-out even being considered? So you can't beat the impossible/improbable twice in a week?

"You just beat the improbable. You weren't supposed to. Therefore, you cannot try again until next week."

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

People actually trying to argue they deserve a way to gloat and mock others in the way of special drops. Why not just ask SE to make the reward an emote to flip the finger? Same effect.

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So if someone has something you can't get, it's mocking? Really? I can't tell if serious

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Originally Posted by AlrikRouge

Had another question about this:

If it is brutal, developers can't beat it so even the most hard-core players and progression players may take one to two months to beat it...uhm, why is there a lock-out even being considered? So you can't beat the impossible/improbable twice in a week?

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Assumedly, Brutal Coil is going to be implemented before the lock-out is removed from the standard-difficulty Coil, and the turns of Brutal Coil will still give the same loot as normal.

Even if it's way harder, if it suddenly became farmable because of a lack of lockout, people'd do it for the gear, and it'd kill the "the real reward here is the challenge and title" aspect. And people who can't do it would complain that they're being set back unfairly.

Brutal mode is for people way at the top and are bored with the regular Coil runs. If you're not running Second Coils through in one night I think it doesn't matter.

It's a challenge for the bored hardcore players.

Brutal Mode T9.... that's going to be awesome to see in video as I'll probably won't clear T9 as it is anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

So if someone has something you can't get, it's mocking? Really? I can't tell if serious

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Why else is it important that it is unique and special? Clearly it is for "special snowflake" people who need to be able to tell others they are better than you.

People who don't need to gloat, don't need special drops. They can take the same ones as the easier modes because they play for fun and not gloating.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkander

Brutal Mode should have no reward other than the title, and it's cool as it is. It is something that is not actually meant to be completed, if they put any kind of reward in it people will start complaining that it's too hard and it will eventually be nerfed, defeating the "brutal" purpose.

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1,000 times this.

This content should be purely for challenge. In it's current form; Reward, if anything, should be purely titles/vanity.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

It's for the people who did stuff like 1 tank 1 heal titan em during 2.1, it is certainly not the path of least resistance but a fun extra challenge and it's target audience don't need a carrot.

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Would people still do brayflox if it didn't drop tomes to get i100 gear?

People are people, I'm so tired of this Casual Vs Hardcore argument. I'm not even going to ever get to run "brutal" mode, even if there was a good carrot to get from it. Even so, I think there should be one. I won't get all hurt to see people running around wearing/using whatever it could be. I don't know a single person in 10 years of MMOs that ever got excited about some title, with the rare exception that it rhymed with their name or something.

If they aren't going to put a good carrot in for it, they shouldn't even put brutal modes in there. I'd rather personally that they spend their time making content people will actually do.

It's hard enough to establish seven other people that want to be in a static and run stuff every week, for the *easy* mode stuff.... :/ Brutal modes won't get done in this game's community without a good carrot. Only group that might not *need* a carrot would be some group that is going for a "world first", and then brutal mode will never be done again... lol

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Would people still do brayflox if it didn't drop tomes to get i100 gear?

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Before the novus patch was release I did farm brayflox even after being soldiery capped and having to spend myth since I was always nearing the 2,000 cap. It's like you believe doing something for the sake of doing it is just such a ridiculous notion.

People want a challenge and that's the carrot Brutal mode offers. The icing on the cake is the title that goes with it as evidence to completing that challenge which isn't needed but it is still there. Same with coil giving gear. You don't need coil gear to down coil. The gear is a reward for being able to tackle it and completing the challenge.

I miss the good ol days where gear wasn't gated behind raids.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

It's hard enough to establish seven other people that want to be in a static and run stuff every week, for the *easy* mode stuff.... :/ Brutal modes won't get done in this game's community without a good carrot. Only group that might not *need* a carrot would be some group that is going for a "world first", and then brutal mode will never be done again... lol

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You just provided another carrot; I'll look forward to proving you wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I miss the good ol days where gear wasn't gated behind raids.

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*sigh*
Good old days... Anyone up for some MUD fun?

it isn't mandatory... so if you don't want to try it don't do it... it is pretty simple concept LOL
It provides a challenge for people who like a challenge... not the easy mode everyone cried for after beta phase.. Like Yoshi said himself this is how it was intended to be originally ... so if you want to really see how it was meant to be go ahead and try!

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Originally Posted by Radacci

If it was human nature to take the path of least resistance, humanity wouldn't have moved out of Africa.
People wouldn't be working-out, or climbing mountains.

People aren't going to skip brutal, cause it's the most resistance. They ARE going to do brutal, BECAUSE it offers the most resistance, because they find normal-mode, to easy and boring.

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As a long distance runner, gamer and a concept artist I can second that. Everything worth doing in life is kind of hard and success IS the reward.
Did anyone diss XI quests because they did not give loot nor xp most of the time?
No. Everyone did them just because completion felt rewarding by itself.

Why design content that only an extremely tiny portion of population will do lol.
I forsee brutal coil just being a massive RNGfest .

Now can SE design it so that it is like peak wow well designed raid? I really doubt it.
The current "balanced "coil 1-9 has some of the fights completely broken(turn7,turn5)
How will the non balanced coil be better i dont see it.

If they can somehow make a raid of non broken not rng fights good job...But i think they have the best chance desigining a new raid not old one.

Mini twintania mount for beating brutal coil? or even an ADS mount? Title is not really an epic reward(unless they make it standout) . Not to mention most people will have zero clue that the title is from brutal coil. Most wont even care. But now a nice mount gets peoples attention and it gives no advantage to those who have it.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You just provided another carrot; I'll look forward to proving you wrong.

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Go for it, I'd be the first to congratulate you... lol

If you already clearing turn 9, which I imagine you probably are to say that. I'd imagine you'll have better luck than many of us in finding seven people that want to do it.

My personal experience is my static that I was working on turn 9 with mostly quit for wildstar and other games... So I'm happy at least some people still are having better luck than me with having friends that enjoy the game still.

Maybe I'm still just sad to see the friends I had been playing since nearly launch just up and quit the game because they were bored and weren't happy with the development cycle/etc. But yea, I realize some people still are having fun.

I hope it stays that way for you.