DPS Tool

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Originally Posted by Esmian

I'm honestly at a loss for what kind of player base wouldn't have people reacting negatively if they knew people were under performing by a large degree.

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Are you asking how many of us would insult someone else for having low damage instead of giving advice?

There is a difference between telling someone their damage is lower than it should be and insulting them.

There is already a report function/blist if people were being rude.

Wouldn't strike dummies with a parser help people increase their DPS tho? In a raid the parser wouldn't be available so it only for personal use. ATM people don't know what their DPS is and get burned by insults. The dummies can at least improve their DPS before joining a group.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

If you enjoy being insulted then good for you.

With this playerbase, a tool like that would hardly be used for constructive criticism.

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The problem with this playerbase is that it's extremely low-skill and carebear, not that it's "elitist".

@Gormogon: as always, you are making huge assumptions. Ignoring all of those, in your case where people complain when people with lower ilevel gear join your party - what is a better test of skill, a dps meter (which shows output) or just a base ilevel check (which, as I'm sure everyone agrees, does not represent skill)? People will stop complaining about that ilevel70 BLM who is in your speedrun when it turns out that s/he is doing 600+ dps.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Are you asking how many of us would insult someone else for having low damage instead of giving advice?

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Well I fail to see how people who say give advice don't realize that when they give advice they're vocally acknowledging that the person in question is under performing by whatever standards they've set and that they should accept the advice(whether helpful or not) to meet your expectations of how they should be playing. Whether you think you're being nice about it or not both methods are effectively criticizing how that person is playing the game by your own standards.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

Well I fail to see how people who say give advice don't realize that when they give advice they're vocally acknowledging that the person in question is under performing by whatever standards they've set and that they should accept the advice(whether helpful or not) to meet your expectations of how they should be playing. Whether you think you're being nice about it or not both methods are effectively criticizing how that person is playing the game by your own standards.

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Are you seriously implying that giving advice is the same as criticising or insulting? Compare these two statements and tell me if they're the same.

"Hey baning the spumes to the head/tail can increase your dps"

"Omg why didn't you cast bane on the spumes you noob? L2P."


Unless you tell me you have no desire to improve whatsoever as a player I fail to see your point.

I love the last paragraph of the translation :D. That is a great DPS checker! I can't wait to try it out :D.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

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In both cases you're singling out the SMN's dps not being up to par if the party isn't meeting a dps check for the encounter. And my point was that keeping parsers out of the game is pointless because regardless of the tone of the person there will always be player opinion of how much dps each class can do in a fight(unless you're telling players not to have an opinion), particularly with this game due to the many dps checks that exist. The only thing "official" parsers will do is help pinpoint where people can improve and reduce baseless criticisms because dps information would be readily available for everyone to see.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

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Singling out would imply I have a personal vendetta against that particular player. All I'm saying is that I don't see anything wrong with giving players advice so long as it's not done in a condescending manner, all the more if we are not meeting dps checks. How the other party chooses to interpret it is up to them.

And by offering suggestions does not implicitly mean they are a bad player. Take T8 for example. I usually do around 320 dps for that fight but I felt it could be higher. So I talked to a smn that cleared t9 and he advised me that auto attacking gave about 10-15 over the course of the fight. Guess what I tried it and it worked

Personally I feel what is holding many players back is how sensitive they take every piece of advice as an insult or criticism. I'm sure most of the top players weren't born with it naturally and also learnt from others and guides.

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Originally Posted by Docj

Perhaps functions could be added to the existing striking dummies allowing players to check their own DPS output while not in battle. Maybe, instead, create a special dummy that can be placed on estates that has this type of functionality. This would help players improve themselves and try out new rotations/strategies. This adjustment seems like it would fit in naturally with dummies since they currently serve little purpose..

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I think this is a darn good idea, it should be considered.

I don't get their stance on this. If a tank or healer mess up, it's easy to point finger which one is not doing their job but when DPS are not pulling their weights, they decide it's too toxic. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

There is a difference between telling someone their damage is lower than it should be and insulting them.

There is already a report function/blist if people were being rude.

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There is a difference between how things should work and how they actually do.

On paper any issue caused by a tool like this can be controlled, but the practice tells otherwise.

SE peeps don't want to lose or ban elitists, but they don't want to lose casuals either.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

The problem with this playerbase is that it's extremely low-skill and carebear, not that it's "elitist".

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I'm not sure if we're talking about the same game here.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

Well I fail to see how people who say give advice don't realize that when they give advice they're vocally acknowledging that the person in question is under performing by whatever standards they've set and that they should accept the advice(whether helpful or not) to meet your expectations of how they should be playing. Whether you think you're being nice about it or not both methods are effectively criticizing how that person is playing the game by your own standards.

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But I never said giving criticism about under performing is wrong, whether you're being constructive or destructive is what matters here. A tool like this immensely helps with the first, but they cannot simply ignore the second when that could cause them a loss of players.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

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I'll be honest, I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. lol. Clearly you're pro parsers, you agree that they can be key in figuring out why a group isn't meeting dps checks and that they benefit players regardless of how players choose to interact with each other about it. So I'll just save myself some time and say "yes, you're right".

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Originally Posted by Alukah

But I never said giving criticism about under performing is wrong, whether you're being constructive or destructive is what matters here. A tool like this immensely helps with the first, but they cannot simply ignore the second when that could cause them a loss of players.

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And what I'm saying is that it's pointless to not release it because of what players might do because they'll form some metric in which to evaluate and judge others regardless of if they have a parser or not.

Haha I actually have no idea which side of the fence you're on and I don't think we're arguing. I'm actually fine with them not implementing parsers cause most serious raiders already use them and the only use of an official one is that it's standardised and probably more accurate.

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Originally Posted by TestSubject09

You can't kick people for being bad in Duty Finder... its not a valid reason. (unless they are obviously trolling) .... if you do, they can report you for harrasment

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Well of course not. It's not a valid reason but lo and behold people still abuse the living hell out the kick system now do they?
See CS threads for example. We can report them and all, but people don't care also the innocence who get kicked
still have to wait for so long to do another run because their dps is low? This game needs much less people
to find a reason to bully others.

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Originally Posted by Alise

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Good and bad is not something that's exclusive to NA. Yet the whole elitist mentality born from over competitiveness is something that you can notice a lot in gamers brought up in the American culture for obvious reasons more than other nations that do house their own form of it because of how obviously "vocal" they tend to be.

Yes I don't use parsers because I don't care for them. Parsers aren't gonna let the group know that I used virus or lethargy on the boss, eye for an eye or apocatastasis on a group member, that I avoided some mechanics with manawall, manaward, aetherial manipulation. That I'm off healing because the tank is low and the healer has died and we can drag it out and still down the fight. As well as the fact that everyone's dead and instead of allowing myself to die at 2% I kite and scathe and finish it off. Parsers don't take these kind of situational occurrences into consideration. Parsers are primarily used so people can know their MAX DPS Numbers.

There's a difference of letting a person know that implementing an ability in their rotation would allow them to do more damage over "omg wtf is your problem noob? Don't you know how to DPS? Play something else or uninstall".

there are already third party tools for parsing anyway and to be honest, strict DPS doesn't happen until you do high end content like coil / primals..etc. No need to implement if it further segregates the community. But I agree that it'll be great to allow training dummies to show your DPS numbers.

When the games major fights are built around DPS checks, you NEED to have everyone perform at somewhat the same level. It's not to bully people, it's to clear the friggin' content. For example, I did a Duty Roulette today and got Haukke Hard. I was an i90 WAR, paired with an i90 WHM. However, BOTH our DPS were about i50 (the lowest ilevel required for Haukke Hard is i48). We did okay at first, albeit slow. The first boss almost wiped us due to the amount of skeletons that ended up being spawned, because we killed it so slow. Second boss took a long time, though it wasn't out of hand like the first boss. Okay, it's a slow but decent run so far. Then, we get to the final boss. DPS was so slow we barely managed to drop each add to 20% before the boss absorbed them. (Which results in a very high amount of Blood Rain damage), sometimes flat out killing the BLM we had due to his 2.9k hp. We made it to the final phase only to have the boss use an Enrage mechanic which I have never seen before because it took so long. (She uses Fatal Allure on your party members and 1 shots them, healing HP to herself). We did this TWICE, once with me using DPS accessories and the WHM DDing half the fight. The DPS left because they realized they didn't have what it took to clear this dungeon, and it was simply because they could not do it. In 8 man raids, it's good to signify an issue if there is one, and clear it up. If a guy is too undergeared or inexperienced to clear content, he should be made aware of this so he can improve himself.

i think when you sign up for an MMO, you agree that you may be subject to some judgment , that being said, yes, SE does need to be worried about hurt feelings

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Originally Posted by Zell1226

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to be fair, if the i50 players could queue into DF then they were geared enough for the content, they probably wasn't doing their rotations correctly or weren't utilizing their skills enough. That's why I think a training dummy with maybe tutorial on rotations and DPS parsing numbers would greatly improve everyone's skill base.

Let's just make the DPS tool personal. I want to see my personal dps, i don't need others to know about it or know theirs. Then, people will be able to shout their number if they want or not.
Improving dps is not only about rotation, it's also how you react and use your time to dps in encounters (my main dps is BLM). Giving numbers only on dummies woudn't help me that much.

People really need to take a step back and decide what "elitist" means since it has become such a loaded term.
To most it means people that spend time theorycrafting, look for the absolutely the best rotation, and min-max everything. Most likely in a top end progression FC.
For some it seems to mean anyone who actually cares about how well they do their job.

If elitist means feeling that i shouldn't be carried though content and caring about how my DPS stacks up against par for the job I am playing then I guess I am guilty as charged.
BUT the truth is that I am not an elitist. I have played other MMOs where that name (the positive side of the term not the negative side) would apply to me so I definitely know the difference.
Regardless of how you play the game you should care about whether you play your job well or not.

You look at a tank and if he doesn't have the HPs or can't keep agro he isn't doing his job (even though if we could do a DPS check it may be because the DPS is just awesome and he can't keep hate).
You look at a healer and if people are dieing, they are dieing, detrimentals aren't being cleansed, or they are running out of MP then they aren't doing their job.
But god forbid if I ever mention in party chat that mobs seem to be taking a long time to die. HOW DARE I.
If the healer couldn't heal a group they would be kicked and that is without any quantitative evidence that shows they aren't performing as opposed to other people causing the problem.
If a dps gets kicked because of a DPS meter at least there is evidence to support the reason and not a gut feeling.

Parsers are a great tool for improvement but people are hung up on the one time in a hundred it is going to be used negatively.
If I am playing a DPS class and we are failing because of DPS problem I want to know if I'm the cause.

This has nothing to do with dps-meters. This has to do with peoples decency.

If we were to restrict everything because people are the ones abusing it, well... You can figure this one out yourselves.

Im from Europe myself. It's the "Western" servers where people like to go all elite on others. Just like it's our servers (EU/US) where there is massive RMT spam (because there is a market). It's a cultural thing. And no, I can't move to a JP server. Have done it up to lvl 38, lag is just too much.

I think SE just needs to implement it and punish people hard when they use it for the wrong reasons. On the other hand, telling someone "your dps is on the lower end" is something people should be able to take. Plenty of us to go over rotations.

so basically. the "elitist" just want to win things with people that can properly play their class and not deal with wipes after wipes. so when the "elitist" as for such a thing in pf and basically see that you are not up to par the "elitist" get burned at the stake.

....crazy.

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Originally Posted by rockso

so basically. the "elitist" just want to win things with people that can properly play their class and not deal with wipes after wipes. so when the "elitist" as for such a thing in pf and basically see that you are not up to par the "elitist" get burned at the stake.

....crazy.

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Exactly.
Where "elitist" would be considered an average or above quality player.
But I forgot we live in the age of participation medals and not caring if you perform well doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Nabician

Let's just make the DPS tool personal. I want to see my personal dps, i don't need others to know about it or know theirs. Then, people will be able to shout their number if they want or not.
Improving dps is not only about rotation, it's also how you react and use your time to dps in encounters (my main dps is BLM). Giving numbers only on dummies woudn't help me that much.

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This is really the best option I'd think.

Yes, a DPS tool can be great for improving your own performance, but that's the only purpose it needs. So long as things are dieing, and your group is clearing the content, team member DPS amounts are not relevant to the overall team. Groups can choose to share the info amongst themselves, especially simple in the case of pre-made groups, but PuG's are choosing to go into places with random groups. Take what you get. Among randoms, a dps comparison only feeds the drama.

PC gamers already have access to tools such as the FFXIV app; however, PS3/4 gamers have nothing.

So this kind of tool is already available to a large portion of the community. If anything, SE making an official tool like this in-game would be leveling the playing field as far as this is concerned.

Not sure it is good or not if they add combat result (same as the one after each PvP match) after each content.

But better performance will result faster fight (speed run) so maybe some players will blame this idea?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yes I don't use parsers because I don't care for them. Parsers aren't gonna let the group know that I used virus or lethargy on the boss, eye for an eye or apocatastasis on a group member, that I avoided some mechanics with manawall, manaward, aetherial manipulation. That I'm off healing because the tank is low and the healer has died and we can drag it out and still down the fight. As well as the fact that everyone's dead and instead of allowing myself to die at 2% I kite and scathe and finish it off. Parsers don't take these kind of situational occurrences into consideration. Parsers are primarily used so people can know their MAX DPS Numbers.

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That's not true though - parsers can tell you all of the above.

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There's a difference of letting a person know that implementing an ability in their rotation would allow them to do more damage over "omg wtf is your problem noob? Don't you know how to DPS? Play something else or uninstall".

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You're presenting a worst case scenario as an argument against far more common average scenarios.

I really think this is being discussed to levels that aren't really realistic.

Is SE going to create/allow a DPS measuring tool of some kind?: Probably not. Why? Just look at these forums, so much verbal abuse. They are smart to limit what is allowed in this way. Each game has a demographic, and apparently ours for this game is a bit abusive.

Are DPS tools in general a bad thing in other games like WoW, Rift, etc?: If other developers allow them in their own games, it's totally up to them and it's not a bad choice. It can be a useful thing to have in those games.

To me, this is basically the right to bare arms debate. Are guns dangerous? Yes, they are. Do guns kill people? People kill people, guns just make it easier. If used appropriately, guns can enforce order (ex. Police, Army). I think these forums prove we probably would use such a tool inappropriately. Until such a time that we would use a DPS tool properly, I doubt SE will budge on this issue.

Ultimately though, it's those people that would use a DPS tool for abuse towards others that are preventing SE from allowing us from having one for legitimate use.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Parsers aren't gonna let the group know that I used virus or lethargy on the boss, eye for an eye or apocatastasis on a group member, that I avoided some mechanics with manawall, manaward, aetherial manipulation. That I'm off healing because the tank is low and the healer has died and we can drag it out and still down the fight. As well as the fact that everyone's dead and instead of allowing myself to die at 2% I kite and scathe and finish it off. Parsers don't take these kind of situational occurrences into consideration.

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If you're going to argue against something, at least educate yourself as to what it entails. Parsers do, in fact, display every single bit of information you just mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Zell1226

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I honestly doubt that would be fixed with a DPS meter, the problem there lies in the ridiculously low ilvl requirement and how badly ilvl is calculated, Copperbell and Haukke HM difficulty should either be toned down enough for i48 players or change the ilvl requirement, while expert dungeons should be toned higher, the first time I did expert dungeons I couldn't believe they were so much easier than high level dungeons, it's beyond logic.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

I think SE just needs to implement it and punish people hard when they use it for the wrong reasons. On the other hand, telling someone "your dps is on the lower end" is something people should be able to take. Plenty of us to go over rotations.

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I think that's exactly what they want to avoid, having to hire more people to patrol this when this tool isn't even a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I think it's about HOW we're being told. Saying something like, "pop your offensive cds" is better than saying "dude, you suck as dps". This kills morale. That person may leave, now you have more downtime.

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I am aware of this, but again this is the infuriating side of this community.... "There are bad eggs, so we shouldnt get voice chat or combat logs" .... its sickening... I guess we shouldn't have chat at all because that upsets people just as much. communication between annonomous humans via the internet should not be allowed.

dismissing features because people are so sensitive is bad... and while it may put off a few it won't put off anywhere close to everyone. MOBAs.... the most toxic communities out there... are now bigger than MMOs.... clear indication that just like in real life YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE OF ALL KINDS... not living in some censored shell.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

this tool isn't even a necessity.

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Says someone who's never done Coil.
If a group is not meeting the DPS checks in the end-game content, they need to know why, there's no debating that. It's SE who designed these encounters and chose to include DPS races (and proceeded to pretend that players should think DPS doesn't matter.) If we don't want people to parse, then there shouldn't be any soft or hard enrage in a fight.

And it's a moot point. The people you're worried about, elitists, 99% of them are already using parsers. It's already possible for people to cause all of the problems people are fearing. The only thing this is doing (and I realize SE wouldn't make an official parser, but as someone mentioned earlier, release the API already!) is depriving the decent players of accurate and reliable numbers, and preventing people who are afraid of using third party programs from having actual, verifiable ways to track their improvement and skill.

As a console playe, I would love to have a parser or a way to assess my DPS/performance. As it stands, I don't really know how well i'm doing. I just have to hope that i'm doing my rotations efficiently enough. PC players are going to use parsers anyway so they have a pretty big advantage.

Honestly parsers already do exist they always will and while not officially condoned its a don't ask don't tell. So those who care about that sort of thing probably already have it. That said while they can't talk about it nothing is stopping them from stepping out of the duty and removi g you with out telling you why in the case of party finder. It's not harassment to remove someone fro. Your pre made group and all you will be left doing is wondering why groups keep kicking you. I for one would rather be told why I am being removed rather than just zoning out and finding I am no longer In The party.

someone said that you have to deal with all sorts of people like in RL, when you accept this you accept that you will meet good, bad, average, some enjoy the game without asking themselves too many questions, others are just anal about it, others are perfectionists, we are all different, parsers will just give a reason to people to look down on others and believe they are invested of some godly powers that entitles them to get rid of this or that player, ust because you know they are so godly, same as I dont believe kick function should exist, same I disagree with the parsers. the idea may be good but the use that will be done wont be. Tha tool would be too adult for some to be left free for use

Mei

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Parsers do, in fact, display every single bit of information you just mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

That's not true though - parsers can tell you all of the above.

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Yet how many times is it used for that over, "muh dps"? Since all throughout this thread there's been nothing but the mention of it being required to JUDGE DPS.

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DPS checks

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DPS Tool

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DPS

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Considering all the hard DPS-Checks in the game, this tool is kind of needed. Throw in the portion of players that dont know thier rotations... It's no wonder people are complaining about not being able to beat T5 with Echo.

As far as harassment stemming from a DPS tool, some people are still going to get frustrated from not knowing whats wrong in thier raid group and get angry/harass anyway.

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Originally Posted by Silvanoshi

Considering all the hard DPS-Checks in the game, this tool is kind of needed. Throw in the portion of players that dont know thier rotations... It's no wonder people are complaining about not being able to beat T5 with Echo.

As far as harassment stemming from a DPS tool, some people are still going to get frustrated from not knowing whats wrong in thier raid group and get angry/harass anyway.

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The only reason they want it to be forced in is so they can justify the harassment. Happens all the time.