Bard's DPS in endgame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blowfin

Pretty sure they calculated it manually with an abacus.

---

Not sure I follow, sorry. Just trying to learn some new things and wondering how they calculated top DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EvianEverdeen

Not sure I follow, sorry. Just trying to learn some new things and wondering how they calculated top DPS.

---

Most people that parse use either Advanced Combat Tracker or FXIV App.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menriq

We run with two BRD's, SMN, BLM, DRG. Instead of popping Dex pots, we pop X-Ether, and can keep Foe Req up for most of the fight. The SMN and BLM last night on T8 were both almost over 400 DPS, with me being close to 360, and the other BRD (an alt) was around 300. Ultimately, there are several comps that work, and as long as the ultimate goal is reached (boss is dead), it shouldn't matter too much. With that said, with skill and gear being equal, I would never expect a BRD to be at the top of the DPS unless there is a lot of movement.

---

Yeap I understand that. In fact our first kill was a double BRD kill as that week our WAR left us after clearing T7 and thus we pulled a FC member in for T8 clear. We had a different tactic thou - with me being the main BRD (and being more geared), I only play foe req and uses X-Dex, while the other BRD focus on Paeon/Ballad. After which we are all unique DPS class comp (MNK/DRG/BRD/SMN/BLM) and we pushed more DPS and skipped phases and did not see the last tower (we did 2 mines 1 AoE for 7th, skipped the dreadnaught). But since the forum guys are primarily interested in min-maxing and there are groups out there struggling with T8's DPS demands, double BRD won't be my recommendation VS 2 melee DD comp cos a melee DD such as MNK would bring much more DPS in compared to a prolonged for req for mages (unless the melee is a complete flop).

But yeah, for a near dummy T8 fight, I'd expect BRD to be at the bottom of the table if every of the DPS knows their stuff well enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErnestoGiovanni

Yoshi-P did say that Bard's DPS is lower to provide mobility. Actually that's not true but it sounds better than what really happened, there was a massive community outcry because Bard could top the DPS charts since they technically have no down time, they can attack and move on dodge heavy fights despite their toolkit being only fairly limited for a DPS, so all weapons in the Bard's armory had their innate damage lowered so they can never really top the DPS charts unless they are constantly spamming abilities and everyone else is busy running around.

---

We have a sad community, in which we (BRD) makes some people lol at us for not putting out huge numbers. I was told I sucked on Ifrit Ex at 184 dps (whatever that mean). Mind you, I was last alive with 4HP remaining. The last tick of my Venomous Bite killed Ifrit, yet they said he'd BEEN dead if my dps was higher.

There was an argument about the programs used. One guy said his numbers reset each phase while another guy say his only track the initial hit of a DoT attack.

Things like this kills morale!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taban

The bloodletter nerf was just a tooltip error iirc. Nothing got changed, but people freaked out for a bit since it happened at the same time that the bfb and ir nerf went in.

IMO the reason for the bard nerf (and all the people thinking bard was super OP) was Titan HM. A large portion of the community was stuck on that fight at the time, and it was messing up most of the other classes because of the amount of movement involved. Once people started getting into coil bards fell behind because they didn't scale as well as the other classes. I'm hoping we get a small buff at some point in the future, especially with blm's getting buffed in the next patch.

---

I'm fine with how BRD is. Many BRDs forget that they play a support role as well. Many BRDs even admit to not wanting to use Paeon or Ballad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

There was an argument about the programs used. One guy said his numbers reset each phase while another guy say his only track the initial hit of a DoT attack.

Things like this kills morale!

---

Neither of them understand how to parse, then. If it's resetting between phases, they need to increase the timer before it resets, and if it only tracks the first hit of a dot, he's using an old version and needs to update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Neither of them understand how to parse, then. If it's resetting between phases, they need to increase the timer before it resets, and if it only tracks the first hit of a dot, he's using an old version and needs to update.

---

Can also still have it reset quickly (separating the phases), then just add up the separate parse periods (their time and damage) into a single measure if you don't want to count the deadtime. As long as the enrage timer counts based upon the boss's time on the ground, rather than from the start of combat, that's technically more accurate. (Though I think most have enrages based on the start of combat?... Can't remember.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I'm fine with how BRD is. Many BRDs forget that they play a support role as well. Many BRDs even admit to not wanting to use Paeon or Ballad.

---

We aren't the only class with support, nor are we a pure support job I'd trade Paeon for battle rez in a heartbeat =p

DPS classes should be (somewhat) balanced, having a few noticeably ahead of others just isn't good design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taban

DPS classes should be (somewhat) balanced, having a few noticeably ahead of others just isn't good design.

---

So I guess we should give the other DPS jobs just as much utility you guys bring then. Balance doesn't mean making every jobs capable of doing the same thing. There have to be trade-offs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemon8or

So I guess we should give the other DPS jobs just as much utility you guys bring then. Balance doesn't mean making every jobs capable of doing the same thing. There have to be trade-offs.

---

I'd be fine giving other dps classes more utility. Being able to do similar dps is not the same as every class being the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taban

I'd be fine giving other dps classes more utility. Being able to do similar dps is not the same as every class being the same.

---

The issue is that the effectiveness of a particular dps is content-dependent. In the first coil, and the extremes, bards and their dps versatility was more valuable. Bards have no content restrictions for their damage. Every fight is the same for a bard. On high movement fights or, to a smaller extent, aoe fights bards can shine in comparison to other classes. In the second coil you have more fights where it's easy to keep up melee buffs, limit blm movement, etc. Those classes are able to reach their max potential easier than they could in the first coil.

The diversity in the dps classes is good and pretty well balanced right now (blm can use/is getting some tweaks). Hopefully content will continue to be diverse and keep every class relevant.

bard does much less than monk and summoner unless they are being forced to move alot.

Bard dps is just low. Theres no trick to it. dots, heavy shot, bloodletter, buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akirakogami

bard does much less than monk and summoner unless they are being forced to move alot.

Bard dps is just low. Theres no trick to it. dots, heavy shot, bloodletter, buffs.

---

Depends on the content. BRD does quite well even in fights that don't require that much movement if there are lots of things to dot. Hit 370 in Levi ex just yesterday. :)

Bard has a good DPS in fights with several non-packed targets.

4 targets, 2 dots on each, repeat.

I have never understood threads like this one. There are ALOT of people who chime in who have done little to no testing of their own and simply retype something that they have read somewhere else. Or they think something that they were told is law.

Disclaimer: All groups and all players are different. Not every group will work the same. Parsers are a grey area, so discussing them can be taboo. Take your specific group out to a dummy or test during farm content to see differences week by week (don't just take my or someone else's word for it). That being said, it takes a several pulls to get an average. I personally don't use anything under 5 pulls on a dummy with each change and often times use 10+ depending on the free time of those who come with.

People need to stop looking at an individual's numbers. Rather, look at raid-wide numbers. I personally could care a less if ZOMG monk can pull out 5-10 more dps if it costs the raid 30-40 dps.

Foe is the ONLY song that will increase the group's dps. IMO, no other song should be sang unless there is a death or people are playing badly. If you include the loss of 20% dps to the BRD from singing AP or MB this will NEVER be higher then the gain to another group members dps + the loss of time you could be singing Foe. Please test for yourself with a full raid group if you think I am wrong or misinformed. Any time spent singing AP or MB is a loss of RAID-WIDE DPS. If your group has 2 casters in it the 10% increase to each of their dps (roughly 30-40 short term dps each) from singing Foe and the 20% (roughly 60-80 short term dps) loss from the BRD if he has to sing anything else. Singing Foe for every drop of MP you can gain in a fight will be higher in every example. These numbers get even further apart if you throw BV into the equation. This example does not include good healers who are at a minimum keeping their dots up at all times. If it did, the numbers would lean further towards Foe being the song of choice.

To the people saying ZOMG my monk can do like 40-50 more dps if I give him AP. You are reading numbers from a short parse or real-time parse. If we take an average geared group with the T8 example, as it is the closest thing to a dummy fight that this turn provides. The difference over the course of the fight (10-11 mins) in giving a monk AP whenever he wants/needs it vs. not giving it to him at all is roughly 10 dps depending on your monk. If he is intentionally starving himself or trying to sustain will also change this number. Our group has seen a number closer to 3-5 dps, as I have already trained my monk to stop asking for it. now if you have 2 monks "going crazy" or a drg who is bad and cant sustain himself along with your monk. AP will make a larger increase to their dps and will bring the numbers closer to if not a small increase in raid-wide.

ZOMG my SMN can pull 40-50 more dps if I sing ballad for him. My friend, your SMN is bad or you are wrong (the numbers just don't work that way). If you want to single out your SMN for a dps increase: watch his dots, put up foe every time right before he refreshes them and give him a kick of ballad no later then the 8 min mark inside of his dot timers. extend Foe through dot sets when your mp allows, just make sure it is up every time he puts his dots up. guess what, you are not there strictly to increase your SMN's dps. This example is worthless outside of a dummy just to see how high he can go. Yes, I have done this for hours on end and the SMN in my group. He can sustain over 400 dps on a 11 min parse (his best is just over 420, i101 I think). Does it compensate for my loss of dps and the loss of dps to the raid in a raid environment... heck no. is it fun to do on a dummy, you bet!

The only time/times that ballad should be used: During progression, people are being silly and dying a lot, people are standing where they shouldn't or your tank is not using CD's correctly and healers are having to spam large heals. 99% of the time a good healer should be able to control their own MP enough to never run out. If your group has good healers who also dps in the middle. They too should never need ballad, they are already smart enough to dps when able.


Do I ever sing the other songs? You bet I do, we are a semi-support class. I am here to bring someone up after they screw up and get them back into the fold as quickly as possible. I do however, minimize the time that I do anything other then dps and sing Foe. I get them back up and move on. Remember we should be focusing on raid-wide dps, not just that person who screwed up. It is up to you to figure out the best way to get back into your Foe rotation after this happens.

---

If you want to have a discussion about dps. Sitting on a dummy for 5 mins with no: group, outside debuffs on the dummy, food or potion. A BRD standing alone and unafraid against a dummy. in i90 gear he should be 310-320 and higher if lucky with procs. By the time i105 came, we were seeing numbers right around 370-380. If 1 or more parsers were used on T8 and we were to have a DRG in the party. I would tell you that I was 399 on a just under 9 min kill and yes I was slowing dps to sing, not just focusing on myself. As a bard with gear roughly equal to the other members in their group. You should be falling in #2-#3 on each turn this tier. If you out or under gear the other members you will be higher or lower.

I'm a Lv 42 Bard there is still a lot for me to understand. I'm still a noob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

IMO, no other song should be sang unless there is a death or people are playing badly. If you include the loss of 20% dps to the BRD from singing AP or MB this will NEVER be higher then the gain to another group members dps + the loss of time you could be singing Foe. Please test for yourself with a full raid group if you think I am wrong or misinformed.

---

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerker

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

---

Thank you for teaching us what an exception is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerker

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

---

Most likely, yes.
This is the perfect example of people playing poorly, doing something incorrectly or not adapting to current gear. You are actually compensating for poor play by hurting the potential max raid-wide dps.

That is where my first statement of "all groups are different" comes into play. If your DRG can't sustain him/her self, your MNK is no where near able to sustain themselves and for some reason your BRD can't either. It might better to sing AP for a short time. Keep in mind however: AP is the most inefficient song that we have. AP gives 30 TP every 5 seconds. So, it will be 10 or more seconds per ability that they gain access to. Depending on how much MP you have, you should be able to keep any song up for about 60secs (full MP bar - 0 MP). It takes just over 150sec to regen your MP bar from 0. As a side note, I rarely sing myself much below 1k MP until late in the fight (there are times and phases that I go oom). This way I always have a buffer should someone die or poop hit the fan until we have the fight down to an art. I normally only sing for a max of 30 seconds at the cost of 75 seconds to regen while learning.

If you use those numbers: 30 secs of singing = 3 abilities that they gain access to and it will be another 75 seconds before you can sing again. This is the part where AP is a major waste of your MP and it kills your raid wide dps. If they are close enough on TP that 3 abilities make a difference, they are close enough to learn to sustain. If they are so TP starved that they are doing nothing for the bulk of the fight... They really need to learn to play their job better.

In your specific example, I'm assuming you run a BRD, MNK, DRG, caster for dps. AP: sustains 2-3 people, debuffs-1 person. Mind you, I just showed, you really aren't buffing anyone, just debuffing-1. Foe: buff-1 to 3 people, debuff-0. Your example might be one of the extremely rare exceptions to the rule. 6 hits at full damage that otherwise would have not been there and 12 hits at a -20% damage. This should not be higher then 12 hits at +10% damage (+20% if voiced) and 12 hits at normal damage (+20% vs AP/MB). Assuming your healers aren't dpsing while Foe is up. If they are, throw 5 -10 more dots into the +10% list as well as any casts that they might get in. As far as the hits gained from singing AP. They are actually still there if you don't sing.... just slightly slower going out. The 6 hits don't just magically appear, in reality it is probably more like 3-4 hits that would have not been there (assuming 2 melee and 1 brd need TP and over the course of an entire fight). They still have to worry about GCD's. For this example I am comparing 30sec of singing AP vs. 30sec of singing Foe.

As the BRD in the group, the only time I had TP issues was when I was unlucky with drops and had retarded high SS. It wasn't that big of a deal to work with, I still never went an extended period low or out of TP. Adapting to current gear and maintaining high DPS numbers is most likely the hardest part of this game atm.

As I said in my original post: Never take someone else's word for it. Get your group together and go test. Do a few parses singing AP when needed and squeaking in Foe when MP allows (make sure to attack a second dummy to simulate the Dreads). Then do a few parses only singing Foe. See which one has a higher raid-wide number. This is the only way to tell which is truly better based on your specific group and the gear that they currently have. If one group (melee or casters) refuse to go to the dummy with you so you can test... I say sing the song for the group that goes with and to heck with the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Thank you for teaching us what an exception is.

---

Anytime, bub. Saying no other song should be played leaves little room for exceptions though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

Most likely, yes.
This is the perfect example of people playing poorly, doing something incorrectly or not adapting to current gear.

---

I don't think it's any of those, the majority of melee DPS I've talked to and many threads I've read all complain of TP issues during T8. My bard has 469 SS and combined with Selene being out, I am consistently sitting at 100 or less TP around the time the second dread spawns. Even just doing my rotation on a target dummy without Selene, I hit 0TP for a good 20-30 seconds before I can use invigorate a third time.

The 30 TP might not seem like a lot, but it's the difference between being able to keep your dots and straight shot up or just having to spam heavyshot till invigorate is back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerker

Anytime, bub. Saying no other song should be played leaves little room for exceptions though.

---

Yeah, I wasn't being super serious. I do think most content doesn't require Bard songs, it can just make things far easier, especially for progression. It's always tough when theorycrafting things like this to balance out:

1) Gear. Is the party overgeared or undergeared?
2) Experience. Is this a progression party or a farm party?

It's like the debate between using Selene and Eos. Eos is, imo, a fairy you use when your party sucks or is flying completely blind. Her healing boost is completely unnecessary for me personally. But the two questions above really change what you want your fellow party members to be doing or using during a fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerker

Anytime, bub. Saying no other song should be played leaves little room for exceptions though.


I don't think it's any of those, the majority of melee DPS I've talked to and many threads I've read all complain of TP issues during T8. My bard has 469 SS and combined with Selene being out, I am consistently sitting at 100 or less TP around the time the second dread spawns. Even just doing my rotation on a target dummy without Selene, I hit 0TP for a good 20-30 seconds before I can use invigorate a third time.

The 30 TP might not seem like a lot, but it's the difference between being able to keep your dots and straight shot up or just having to spam heavyshot till invigorate is back.

---

A rough Quote from my first post:
No other song should be sang, unless someone dies or people are playing poorly.

Running into TP issues is a problem for a lot of "average" players because they think they have to spam their buttons no matter what in order to maximize their dps. They don't see the larger picture. Prioritizing your shot choice before you get so low that you can no longer do anything is what sustaining is. You just stated that you don't or are unsure of how to do it (by the statement that you run out yourself). Just because you can put damage out every 2.5 seconds(or less) doesn't mean that you have to. 3 attacks is NOTHING, which is the part of all of my posts that you are missing. If you are at the point that 3 attacks are making a difference... you messed up a long time ago. The damage you loose by slowing down a little for a few seconds is nominal compared to the damage that you are loosing by debuffing yourself, your healers and your casters. The exact same thing is correct for MNK and DRG. Your statement leads me to believe that you are not adapting to your gear and the new play style that you have to use. 469 isn't crazy high, I have seen BRD's with 550 SS (before Selene). They never used TP song and were able to maintain their dps.

I have been saying it for the several days that I have been posting here. GO TEST. If your specific group with your specific gear and specific players just cant manage without TP song. Then play it. However, learning to manage TP and singing Foe will be a raid-wide dps increase every time. Putting in the time to learn how to play with the intent of maximizing themselves with changes in gear seems to be too much for some people though. (not directed at anyone in specific, just a blanket statement about the average player in most MMO's)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerker

Even just doing my rotation on a target dummy without Selene, I hit 0TP for a good 20-30 seconds before I can use invigorate a third time.

The 30 TP might not seem like a lot, but it's the difference between being able to keep your dots and straight shot up or just having to spam heavyshot till invigorate is back.

---

If you know this is an issue, why do you continue to do the same thing over and over? Why don't you work on sustaining? Run your first 400 tp with all your glory, pop invigorate. Slightly slow your rotation. maybe hold on to that Straighter Shot proc for a few seconds, or until the timer is about to expire instead of right as it comes up. Maybe let your dots fall off the boss for 1-2 maybe even 3 seconds a couple of times between your first and third invigorate. Maybe put up Foe a couple of times for 30 secs, missing 1gcd of damage while casting the song isn't much, but if you are trying to make up for the three shots that you gained from singing AP, you just gained 2 of them right there. Doing small things like this will only drop your dps a couple of points over the course of the fight. But, in doing so, you just sustained yourself and actually raised your dps because you don't have to sing TP or go 20-30 seconds only using HS. These are the kind of things that I am talking about when it comes to Maximizing your and your raids dps.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Even if you sing tp song the whole fight whenever possible, people will still run put of tp as they will compensate by lowering their use of invigorate and use higher tp consuming skills. In a normal scenario for t8 now, tp song only needs to be up for approx 15s if everyone is managing their tp to tide them over before the next invigorate. Other times you should be singing foe's or a bit of ballad.

going to thru the max priority rotation for bard. you can use to up to 2invegorates. by that time you will run out of tp eventually before the 3rd invegorate is up.

this is normal in t8. and yeah put up tp song till 3rd invegorate is up.

and exactly by around this time if you have a SMN in pt they run out of mp and would call for Ballad.

so while waiting for 3rd invegorate: 1) tp song. 2) invegorate is up, use it. 3) ballad for smn (if required). after that. Foe whenever possible.