sch has low heals? we mitigate damage

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

As long as you use regular base heal, you're right. But when the whitemage starts to use the other skills, his burst blows you away till he runs out of mana. Healing speedruns is way more easy with a whitemage than with scholar. In cases when dmg is low and the tank runs out of def cds, its heavy to impossible to keep him up with a scholar. Healing boss in T1 with 8 stacks before echo I also got managed with a whitemage only (and a bard next to me). Solo healing primaes. Much more easy with a whitemage.

The thing is: scholars damage mitigating is lower than the burst a whitemage can trow out. Fairy is also a big issue for me, as she do support only with heal. She's not mitigating (except one buff, but that do only reduce magical damage), what burn down scholars mana very fast, as he is doing mitigating alone.

I'm playing both healers in all content and my experience is: Scholar is not able to handle the same amount of big damage as a whitemage can. Not in partydamage and also not on single target. When there would be no healdebuff coming with deathsentence, Twintania would be also much easier with 2 whitemages.

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Damn mate I just can't agree less with what you are saying to be honest.
I think you misunderstood some scholar mechanics.
First of all scholar wont pull out amazing numbers on your screen, that doesnt mean their heals arent great. For example a single adlo will pull 800 + 800 shield, you add an average heal from the fairy (~700) it's already 1500 healing done and 800 shield. Thats not counting crits.


Scholar single target healing is just much stronger than whm; you pull the same numbers as a whm with mitigation + 3 off gcd 25% hp heal available every minute. Not even talking about the mana.

Concerning solo healing and stuff like that, the only fight scholar was behind whm was clearly ifrit EM, rest of 2.0/2.1 fights were easier or as hard to solo heal as sch than whm.

My point is not to say that scholars are superior to whm or anything like that. You need both of them to progress quietly in coil, just correcting some things I was not agreeing with.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

^ agreed. I think the only problem I can see from your post is spamming adlo. there's a time and place for it and going from a decent/good SCH to a great SCH requires knowing when to use it. but then again, if you're keeping everyone alive who cares if your HPS is considered by some to be low?

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I jump on that train, I dont care if my healer has low HPS, if he keeps me/us up the whole fight, i´m satisfied with him...

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

As long as you use regular base heal, you're right. But when the whitemage starts to use the other skills, his burst blows you away till he runs out of mana.

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If you seriously think this is true, you're deluding yourself.

For straight up spam throughput healing, WHM has Divine Seal (30% +heal for 15 secs every 60), PoM (not sure how much speed but it's only 10s every 300), Cure II (650 cure potency), and, potentially, Regen (150 every 3 sec).

So, assuming Cure II spam with Regen active, you're getting 775 cPot/GCD (650 + 150 * 2.5 / 3). With Divine Seal, you're getting 1007.5 (775 * 1.3) 25% of the time, which gives you 833.125 cPot/GCD (775 * 4.3 / 4) on average, over time.

A SCH has Lustrate (3 25% hp heals every 60s that puts you on a 1 sec CD) and Adloquium (300 pot heal w/ 300 pot shield that turns into a 450 w/ 900 on a crit). Eos brings along Embrace (300 cure pot every 3 sec) which gets beefed up significantly by Rouse (40% +heal from pet for 20s every 90), as well as Fey Illumination (20% +heal for everyone, pet included, for 20s every 120).

Assuming a 20% crit chance (crit stacked SCH), a SCH is going to be getting 660 cPot/GCD (300 + 300 * 1.2) from Adloq on top of 250 (300 * 2.5 / 3) from Eos. Before factoring in CDs (or Lustrate), the 910 cPot/GCD that SCH is managing is already nearly as much as a WHM gets while DS is active and more than they get with it over time. Rouse brings the pet heal up to 350 (250 * 1.4) while it's active or 272.22 (250 * (1 + .4 * 2 / 9) on average. Fey Illumination increases their existing cPot/GCD (660 and 272.22) to 792 and 326.66, or 1118.66 total, which ends up being 963.29 (1118.66 * (1 + .2 * 2 / 12)) cPot/GCD over time. And this is *without factoring in Lustrate* (it also ignores stacking buffs and only considered Fey Illumination for the active CD scenario).

So, let's review (WHM v SCH).

Straight up spam w/ no CDs: 775 v. 910; advantage SCH (17.4% stronger)
Straight up spam w/ CDs active: 1007.5 v. 1118.66; advantage SCH (11% stronger)
Straight up spam w/ CDs averaged: 833.125 v. 963.29; advantage SCH (15.6% stronger)

*without factoring in Lustrate*

SCH is the de facto better ST healer. Without even bringing Aetherflow into consideration, SCH is stronger than WHM. Hell, a SCH just doing Physick spam (400 + 250 = 650) is throwing out the same cPot/GCD as a WHM doing Cure II spam (650), which is a pretty strong clue that, as soon as the SCH starts using their *stronger* heals and larger toolbox, they're going to be doing a helluva lot better. The only possible way for a WHM to be better at ST healing than a SCH is if the SCH is letting their pet languish while simultaneously not using their Aetherflow stacks *or* CDs.

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Healing speedruns is way more easy with a whitemage than with scholar.

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No, it's not. For Bray HM speed runs, the healer of preference is SCH explicitly because it provides stronger ST heals. The only reason that WHM was preferred for WP speed runs was because of Holy, which allowed them to assist in nuking down the packs faster; it had nothing to do with their healing.

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When there would be no healdebuff coming with deathsentence, Twintania would be also much easier with 2 whitemages.

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The most dangerous part of t5 (from a healing perspective) is the baseline damage from Death Sentence (there's at least 2 GCDs between DS and Twintania's next attack). The only tool that a WHM has to mitigate that is Stoneskin. A SCH has Adloquium, which is a helluva lot stronger, as well as weaker Stoneskin. Furthermore, as previously mentioned, a SCH using its pet and Physick will throw the same exact amount of cPot/GCD as a WHM spamming Cure II so, preshielding aside, SCH is still stronger. Lustrate just speeds up the recovery that would be significantly slower otherwise.

If you want to make claims that the collective experiences of the forums are wrong, you better bring in more than anecdotal evidence, especially when you're straight up wrong with most of it (saying WHM is preferred for speed runs, lol).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

No, it's not. For Bray HM speed runs, the healer of preference is SCH explicitly because it provides stronger ST heals. The only reason that WHM was preferred for WP speed runs was because of Holy, which allowed them to assist in nuking down the packs faster; it had nothing to do with their healing.

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I know I'm getting off topic here, but I wanted to expand on this a bit more because I disagree with this point.

I personally prefer running Mythflox SRs on WHM because I feel the WHM toolkit does it better than the SCH toolkit. Holy, when weaved correctly, provides a straight 10 seconds of stun time on every single mob, as well additional damage (further compounded if you have a BRD using Foe Requiem). When combined with Divine Seal + Convalescence + Regen + Medica II, you're looking at least 1,000+HP/tick, as well as Benediction in a pinch (save this for pull #1, don't need if for pull #2). Even without Foe Requiem (I believe the preferred group is WAR BLM BLM Healer), you're now helping down mobs faster thanks to Holy AND providing a straight 10 seconds of 100% mitigation while your HoTs are ticking.

I am wondering how the SCHs toolkit excels past this, because I personally cannot see it and I would like to understand the "why". I've done the SR with both healers (though I admit that I have done it more with WHM than SCH) and would like to further my knowledge of the SCH SR tactics.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I am wondering how the SCHs toolkit excels past this, because I personally cannot see it and I would like to understand the "why". I've done the SR with both healers (though I admit that I have done it more with WHM than SCH) and would like to further my knowledge of the SCH SR tactics.

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Adloq + Stoneskin for the pull on the run (tank is safer when they're positioning); Sacred Soil for reducing damage taken from the massive packs (because incoming damage is so high, it's stronger than Lustrate; plus, damage not taken is better than damage healed) as well as a lower CD on EfE (means you can use it for boss fights as well as trash); Shadow Flare and Miasma for damage (and reducing attack and movement speed); Succor is significantly more useful on the diver packs (I've seen clothies die before you even have the chance to get a heal off on them) than Medica II is and AoE healing is not high so WD is more than enough for those healing needs.

Also, SCH has the option to swap out Eos for Selene without appreciably reducing their ST healing output. Especially for BLMs, Selene is going to increase kill speed (both boss and trash pack) by a noticeable amount.

As to Holy compared SCH AoE contributions, Shadow Flare + Miasma 2 provide 390 pot (20 *2 + 10 * (10 + 25)) of damage every 30 seconds. If you spend 45 seconds on a trash pack, you're effectively getting the same damage from a SCH that you are from a WHM.

The major value in SCH, however, is derived from the boss fights. SCH has superior ST damage and are capable of devoting all of their time in a boss fight to DPS because the fairy and Lustrate can take care of any healing required. Having a SCH on those boss fights is like having an extra DPS. WHM has to throw out heals on their own and has absolutely horrible ST damage besides.

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When combined with Divine Seal + Convalescence + Regen + Medica II, you're looking at least 1,000+HP/tick, as well as Benediction in a pinch (save this for pull #1, don't need if for pull #2).

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That's less than what Eos will provide with a Convalescence on her lonesome without Rouse (WHM = (150 + 50) * 1.3 * 1.3 = 338 cPot every 3 secs; Eos = (300) * 1.3 = 390 cPot every 3 secs). The value in Regen and Medica II is derived from their ability to affect multiple targets at once whereas Eos can only Embrace 1 target at a time. Any time you talk about what Regen + Medica will do for a single target, you're going to have to realize that Eos will provide more.

I appreciate the well thought out reply, it's a nice change from the "LOL OMG" responses that happen in many forums as a whole. I will also definitely take some of these thoughts in mind and refine my SR tactics on SCH as I get more time to do so.

Some comments I thought I'd bring up:
-Graniteskin from WHM should be equivalent to Adlo (assuming no crit if reapplying while running) + Stoneskin from a SCH thanks to the additional 8%. This can have some implication depending or not if your tank decides to tag mobs for enmity on the way in or not. If no tagging, a crit Aldo + Stoneskin from SCH will be more beneficial as you will most likely sprinting to the camp spot. If tagging, a WHM can reapply Stoneskin twice more during the run to the first camp spot, SCHs may only be able to pick between Adlo or Stoneskin doing this (most likely Adlo).
-Holy should far surpass SCHs AoE contribution during the trash pulls. You're talking about a spell that does 200 potency of damage each spell. Within that 30 seconds, you're able to Holy 10 times for 10 * 200 = 2,000 potency of damage versus SCHs 390 in the same period of time. This doesn't include the fact you've now add 10 seconds of 100% mitigation thanks to Stun on the mobs (will contribute more versus 15 seconds of 15% from Sacred Soil or the 5% slow from Shadow Flare for 30 seconds). You've probably also reduce the amount of times you need to kill that pack, thus making an appreciable difference in amount of healing required (though Selene will do this as well in a 2x BLM grouping).

It doesn't change the fact that SCHs will be able to contribute more because their toolkit is better designed for multi-role functionality and better single target heals/damage, however, I did want to bring these nuances to the table because a WHM toolkit can still accomplish SR goals in a different but comparable way. I'd like to think I can do WHM SRs as well as I do SCH SRs, but I will try to change my tactics a bit on my next few runs and see what I can shave off in the end. Once again, thank you for your post.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

-Holy should far surpass SCHs AoE contribution during the trash pulls. You're talking about a spell that does 200 potency of damage each spell. Within that 30 seconds, you're able to Holy 10 times for 10 * 200 = 2,000 potency of damage versus SCHs 390 in the same period of time.

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WHM is only going to be contributing the huge AoE deeps is you're spamming Holy the entire time. If you compare the 3 stuncasts that a WHM would be providing (btw, it's only 7 seconds of stun: 4 + 2 + 1 = 7; PLD can do 10 secs of stunlock because their stun starts at 6) to the continual DoTs damage that a SCH will provide, it basically amounts to the same over time (if you only focus on the stuncasts, SCH will actually provide more).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you want to make claims that the collective experiences of the forums are wrong, you better bring in more than anecdotal evidence, especially when you're straight up wrong with most of it (saying WHM is preferred for speed runs, lol).

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It's half-true; people still want to abide by the old PLD WHM BLM BRD standard for speed runs because... I dunno. It's the standard, stop asking questions. Regardless of efficiency.

People still have their 2.0 prejudices.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

WHM is only going to be contributing the huge AoE deeps is you're spamming Holy the entire time. If you compare the 3 stuncasts that a WHM would be providing (btw, it's only 7 seconds of stun: 4 + 2 + 1 = 7; PLD can do 10 secs of stunlock because their stun starts at 6) to the continual DoTs damage that a SCH will provide, it basically amounts to the same over time (if you only focus on the stuncasts, SCH will actually provide more).

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Hurm, always thought it was six. That's what I get for not remembering tool tips. I shall need to adapt accordingly.

I'm trying to figure out how you think the two AoE damages are comparable though, based on your example. I can usually get six to seven Holy's in succession in a group of mobs while keeping my tank stabilized without issue, so that's 1,200 to 1,400 potency per target versus SCHs 390 in a comparable 30 second window (it usually takes me thirty seconds to stabilize the tank before I begin my spree of Holy's). I would've already surpassed the SCHs damage in those same 30 seconds on two Holy's if you only account for the SCH using Shadow Flare + Miasma II. And your Bane'd DoTs will not be able to hit all ten mobs in the pack due to target limitations, but would certainly balance the two classes better.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I can usually get six to seven Holy's in succession in a group of mobs while keeping my tank stabilized without issue, so that's 1,200 to 1,400 potency per target versus SCHs 390 in a comparable 30 second window (it usually takes me thirty seconds to stabilize the tank before I begin my spree of Holy's).

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Holy is a 3 sec cast. If you're getting 6-7 successive casts in, that's an 18-21 second window where you're not healing, ~12-15 seconds of which the enemies aren't stunned (chaincasting Holy gives you a 4 sec stun that's cut down to 3 with the reapplication of a 2 sec stun). If you can get away with not healing for 12-15 seconds, you're not in a situation where healing is anything approaching a concern and where a SCH would be able to DoT + Bane with abandon to provide a similar benefit to what you're getting out of Holy spam (if not more, over time, given how the 3 DoTs amount to ~800 potency when Bane cleaved) because you're obviously not in the middle of a pull large enough to render Bane ineffective in comparison.

The scenarios we're talking about, the damage from Shadowflare + Miasma II would be roughly equivalent of what a WHM could pump out with the occasions in which they're able to cast Holy, which is what I'm referring to. If you can keep chaincasting Holy after the stuns have worn off, you're not in a situation where your healing really matters all that much.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

~Snip~

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I actually can because in the middle of the 5th Holy, I can Benediction the WAR at 11K HP and keep going without missing a beat in my chain Holy. Additionally, in that chain casting of Holy, my HoTs are still going off (even if they are less potent than Eos / Selene healing). I will get some reprieve during the 7 seconds of stun for HoTs to roll over as well.

My normal rotation on the first pull for Mythflox is as follows:

-Divine Seal
-Regen
-Cure II until tank is full
-Medica II
-Regen (Divine Seal should still be active)
-Cleric's Stance
-Holy until dead

*Insert Benediction as needed between 4-6th Holy
*Esuna Paralyze when needed in the time Divine Seal is up

You won't need Benediction for the Goblin Pull after the first boss, but you may need to drop Cleric's Stance for a Cure III or Medica. My opening rotation still remains though. I tend to be able to chain Holy through the 2nd Pull without issue too off the power of Regen + Medica II.

I should point out, if no one else has yet, that SCH does not have low heals. Our Physick + Embrace is equal to a Cure 2 for almost no cost, and we can spam that nearly infinitely

You should not care about your parsing numbers that much, especially as a healer. This tool is mostly for dps classes, because, unlike Tanks and Healers, there is no reliable way to tell who is doing enough dmg and who can't carry their own weight. It comes in handy if you want to optimize your play, but it is not really necessary.

Also, as stated many times, Scholars don't not have low heals. You can bring lots of healing with smart use of Eos, Lustrates and basic Physick/Adloquium spam.

Next thing, both healers can (contrary to popular belief) help each other in areas they are not supposed to shine just fine. Whm can help with mitigation through Virus, E4E and Stoneskin while Sch can help with AoE healing through Eos (FI, WD) and Succor.

Myself being a WHM I like reading topics like this. It's really interesting to see how my end-game will turn out before I'm even there, so I can start getting used to some of the changes I will have to make to get the best out of working together fluently. Great job guys! Keep the posts coming! :D

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Originally Posted by Kitru

*snip*

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You haven't even factored in the benefits of Shadow Flare and the 5% slow it inflicts on all targets in the area of effect. That definitely helps with additional damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by AldoVonAlexandros

..should i leave my fc because they are telling me this? should i just explain to them?

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I think you should leave your FC in you were not happy with them.
I think maybe they just said you were low heal (the number) but not sch low heal,
because a lot of sch say that they do 1200+ on every single heal button so explaination should be useless.^^;

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My normal rotation on the first pull for Mythflox is as follows:

-Divine Seal
-Regen
-Cure II until tank is full
-Medica II
-Regen (Divine Seal should still be active)
-Cleric's Stance
-Holy until dead

*Insert Benediction as needed between 4-6th Holy
*Esuna Paralyze when needed in the time Divine Seal is up

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I have better combo for you.

1) divine combo.
-an eye
-divine seal
-medica 2 (time it with mobs attack)
-regen
-cleric stance
-swift cast
-holy
-shroud of saints
-presence of mind
-holy x 4 - 6
-benediction if needed.
-holy (save mana 10 - 20%)
= end of the fight.
-stoneskin if needed.

^-^

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

I have better combo for you...

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Just want to mention, a lot of i90+ bloody tanks will take all cone dmg,
they just need cure2cure2cure2cure2cure2 or they will die immediately ^^;

yolo

at the end i did changed fc, i wasnt doing anything there

now a selfie =)

http://i.imgur.com/fuUjwIl.jpg

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Originally Posted by AldoVonAlexandros

yolo

at the end i did changed fc, i wasnt doing anything there

now a selfie =)

http://i.imgur.com/fuUjwIl.jpg

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gratz! you look happy now^^
maybe take this chance to plan for your own fc, i think building your own fc house is interesting.

if you are having trouble with your heals being low try making a physick + embrace macro. it basically serves as a SCH version of c2 but with hate split between you and the fairy and low mp cost you are alot more free to spam it

on the subject of dps, if you wish to DPS comfortably get used to using stoneskin instead of adlo, its mp cost is a bit lower and it is not affected by cleric stance. also learn to rotate your fairies cool downs. once you hit lvl 50 you also have access to lustrate which is not affected by cleric stance.

in a non speed run environment, i dps exclusively thru entire dungeons without ever casting a single adlo or physick. properly timed lustrates and making sure to always keep stoneskin up on my tank allows me to never leave cleric stance.

with cool downs and proper mitigation with eye and virus your fairy can solo heal every single 4 man encounter in the game

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Just want to mention, a lot of i90+ bloody tanks will take all cone dmg,
they just need cure2cure2cure2cure2cure2 or they will die immediately ^^;

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+1!

This is so true, you made me laugh lol
I know some tanks are smart, they kite mobs in circle to minimize the taken damage.
But, when it's bad... I'm all like "cure 2, cure 2, cure 2, regen, oh snap, he is about to die!, benediction, cleric stance... Nope, bad idea" lol

And that tank is like -> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...d=0CF8QMygdMB0 < commendation to me guys