Coil ruined the craft.

LOTS more recipes used for vanity would be ideal, imo. Please keep in mind (as others have stated) that the cost of mats needed to craft these new 2.2 items are VERY expensive. They are also very demanding in terms of the crafter's stats (requires overmelded AF crafting gear). This is, in part, why the finished products are priced the way they are.

Players take a 100% loss when they purchase crafted gear. It can't be resold, and it doesn't hold value.

Why would you put money down on gear you might toss in the trash after a single successful raid?



If I could buy il90 gear for my BRD wear it for awhile; enjoy playing my BRD for a week then resale it and buy a different set of gear for another class you'd see a lot more market activity.

People would be willing to buy the crafted gear if they could liquidate it and get some gil back to gear up another class. This game is far too strict & permanent with how it handles gear & upgrades.

Apparently the solution to a crafter's goods not selling isn't to lower their prices, it's to complain on the official forum. Capitalism at work.

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Originally Posted by jgg1988

Before get philo tokens was very easy! now ilvl 90 requieres 1000 myth for craft 1 ítem only.... and is more difficult than before for get it. ignoring brayflox exploit.

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If you mean running the dungeon and leaving after first two bosses that is not an exploit. Look at CT and at how man players run it for the first two bosses and bail. Was that ever called an exploit? NO!. Why because players new CT was lol anyways it didn't care. Even though I do not personally run Brayflox that way I see nothing wrong with doing it in a PF settings. I.E. not abusing DF but using PF than ok.

i would have at least supported allowing crafters to make 1-2 crafted pieces per class, that were sub endgame. (-10 ilvl)

Not sure why you guys all glossed over a legit reply. The i90 crafted provides stat fixes like accuracy needed in later coils. If you aren't a dedicated raider, you probably don't care for i90 crafted, but that gear could be the difference between clearing this week or having to wait an extra week. Which is a huge deal in t8 as thats 1 extra week advance on a possible i110 weapon. Our whole raid uses 2-3 pieces crafted just to fix accuracy / bad sub stats the new i110 gives.

This gear is not for everyone, if you don't care about the large cost for a small gain your group probably isn't a dedicated progression group.

On the price note it is all about your servers wealth and what they can afford. If the profit margin isn't huge, people will be more inclined to buy. I personally spent about 10 mil master crafting all classes and re melding all my gear but I have already turn that around with about 30 mil in profit.

The problem isnt coil, the problem is crafters charging (on my server) 1.2 million for one piece of gear when the mats, if bought instead of farmed, cost about 150k.

It's just too expensive for a stop-gap solution. "Ideal" secondaries just aren't worth it when the gear isn't top ilvl. Unless it's HQ it doesn't even match the myth/coil drop primary stats.
Other than the acc cap secondaries hardly matter! So it's quite easy to just rearange stuff and farm coil/primals/myth to get an i90 piece that'll work for you.

Sure, after getting the Levi axe I've got a big acc problem that could be fixed with the Heavy Wolfram hat or pants. But why would I spend well over 500k to get an HQ version to keep my drop-i90 defence/str/vit levels when I could just switch a couple easily found, t1-4 or ex primal accessories?

Of course...if GSM hadn't gotten left out of the i90 crafted almost entirely maybe I'd be able to buy a piece or two.

I found crafted items very nice for alt jobs. As im raiding as smn, all my seconds coil drops / soldiery gear goes to it. It will take some time before i can get lockout healer gear, so the i90 crafts are a nice upgrade.

There's not that many rich players on the server who can just buy gear like that. Keep in mind most of the rich players are crafters themselves who would rather work towards crafting their own gear than buying it. I've made three pieces for myself and I have no regrets, even though I could have sold them.

Also, if history repeats itself, SE will make myth gradually easier to get, which will in turn drive prices down, so the market will be flooded with i90 crafted gear soon enough. Just enjoy the high prices while you can because it WILL tank.

I just looked at prices on my server; every HQ is over a million, most closer to 2 mil

And people wonder why they're not selling...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I just looked at prices on my server; every HQ is over a million, most closer to 2 mil

And people wonder why they're not selling...

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Until you try crafting one yourself, you have no grounds to complain. It is a huge time and money investment to be able to even craft one piece of i90.
For starters, you basically need every craft at 50, then you need at least two crafts mastered (the one that is creating the item and alchemy), which costs a ton of money or a lot of time.
Then the craft itself depends on a lot of RNG for at least two base components (terminus putty and 1000 myths worth of crafting materials).

These items are worth more than 1-2m in terms of the cost/time involved.

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The problem isnt coil, the problem is crafters charging (on my server) 1.2 million for one piece of gear when the mats, if bought instead of farmed, cost about 150k.

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lol HQ terminus putty alone goes for 150k on my server. myth items are about 90k. That's 330k already. And the cost of getting every craft to 50 + mastering two crafts? You're already talking a 1m+ cost investment. Which sure, it might make you profitable after a few sales, but not by much and the demand is lacking.

The prices will go down when they make myths easier to get.

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Originally Posted by Bufkus

Until you try crafting one yourself, you have no grounds to complain. It is a huge time and money investment to be able to even craft one piece of i90.

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lol

Look back on page 1.


Also, I have all crafters at 50, and will be working on getting WVR, LTW, ALC and ARM able to do 3*s when I finally have time to do so. Getting Atma and doing Coil and Levi have taken up a nice chunk of time so far.

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Originally Posted by Bufkus

Until you try crafting one yourself, you have no grounds to complain.

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We don't have to complain when we just don't buy and you sit on the item.

Your time/cost involved making the product doesn't reflect the cost of it, demand does. Part of crafting is playing the market game if you want profit.

let's say the crafter don't charge too much, you will have the part at 200.000-250.000 each. who gonna spend that much money on stuff, that will be change if you farm a bit your myth or coil?
what the point? especially if you think that you need to pentameld the item for make it better and that it will cost you way more gils behind.

the trouble are not the item, nor coil, but the politic of SE that simply did give us amazing crafting class that worthless actually since they must'nt go at the same level than raiding gear. but still ask ton of rare component and work and gils... at the same level than raid. what the point? why the reward is not at the level of the work asked for get this stuff?

they need to rework the materia system, they need to give a true role to the crafting class and more important, they need to decide if the crafting must be hard or not... if it's hard, the crafted equipement need to be better!

Demand determines the price, don't craft something if it isn't profittable. That isn't the systems fault. If your profits are bad then you are creating something with little demand, or you are overpaying on materials. The market is a game within a game, not craft x - profit x. Be smart about it. On some servers low level equipment is highly profitable right now since everyone wants to compete for the i90 sales.

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Originally Posted by Casper

God you are so lucky. On Phoenix, about 3 body for tanks sold, all for about 2 millions.

The thing is there is a HUGE investment for any of those pieces, so obviously they will not be a lot of demand. If you want to sell more, advertise by shouting for people that would bring their own myth items, if you can 100% HQ, then sell your services at a reasonnable price. I would love to have the opportunity to acquire some of those gears, but at those prices it is just not possible.

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Legacy Servers have more money, as we've had a two year head-start to accumulate gil, therefore there's generally more money being thrown around.

Why not just let crafters make i100 but make them rare/ex (unique/untradeable) until say the next patch.
That way crafters can only make the gear for them.
Problem solved. No more buying high end gear. Gotta level these crafters and earn it.

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Originally Posted by jgg1988

Yeah, you are right, but I'm talking about make money not about a lot of things for craft... People is not buying! I can craft all and they still dont buying....

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prices on even the simplest things have skyrocketed on Excalibur....not sure what you're talking about.

So sure, maybe someone didnt' buy the robe you crafted (and are probably overcharging for), but there are plenty of other things, gathered, crafted, and farmed that are selling fast, and for good gil atm. LOTS of things.

i see people spending millions for the HQ version and a few more millions trying to meld them just to do Second Coil, its fine as it is, it is better than First Coil gear if you can afford to penta meld it.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

http://i.imgur.com/M8bTh0o.png

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WHO THE CRAZY GUY THAT BOUGHT THAT FOR 7.500.000

I crafted saurian belt of aiming and boots because this items with melds are better than myth/allagan gear or almost be melded.

Depends of...how many hardcore players there are on your server?

A hardcore player, will spend money to improve his gear and melds to get more dps, heal, hp, ... (example blue garter)

Semi-Hardcore he will craft his own gear or will use the actual gear more soldier items.

Casual gamer: Differents opinions, a casual gamer who want become a hardcore and don't wanna waste time farming Coil 1-5 to get the best gear.
the casual gamer who don't buy items ilvl 90 because myth and coil 1-5 is enough.
Rich casual gamer who spend a lot of money for vanity and walk on Limsa/mor dhona :D

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Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

The problem isnt coil, the problem is crafters charging (on my server) 1.2 million for one piece of gear when the mats, if bought instead of farmed, cost about 150k.

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Welcome to a little bit of XIs AH marketing philosophy injected into XIVs MP, 1.5 million after 150k in mats would be a better guess in that game.

This is a kneejerk reaction on the part of crafters obviously in relation to them not having recipes which match the top drop gear at endgame, I am not suprised at all.

As more crafters slowly craft these recipes, the prices will come down if only by undercutting sans any other reason.

I know crafters aren't going to win the idea of having crafted gear being better than coil 1-5. But how about make the mats cheaper?

Just about anyone you could ask would say that people enjoy some flexibility on gear. I'm not asking for crafted gear to be better than coil 1-5 or the myth af sets, but maybe if we made the mats cost less myth, people would buy our crafted gear so they could min/max their stats some more.

For instance, for 825 myth tomes, you can get the af body piece that is i90. OR, you can spend 1600 myth to buy the myth tome mats, then take them to a crafter and hope they don't break it by accident when making you a chest. Then if the crafter does a good job, it would be the nice thing to do to give them a tip (more stuff to shell out).

The crafted HQ pieces aren't bad at all. But do people have a reason to get them? Unless you are made of money or spend 8hrs a day farming myth, you aren't going to have a full set before you get most of your soldiery/high allagan gear. On the other hand, you could farm 1-5 and get decked out in a day with i90 allagan gear. That isn't balanced.

I think many people would argue that the HQ crafted i90 sets fall into the hardcore category. How many are hardcore enough to spend that much money/myth to possibly get slightly more secondary stats? Most are not hardcore.... So why cater to the 5% of people that will buy this gear from you? If someone could make a full set of them, they might have a slight edge (if capped with materia IVs), for like maybe a few weeks until they replace it all with soldiery gear. But for the other 95% of us, we aren't going to have a full set unless we are sitting on a small fortune and buy other people's mats. Farming all the myth ourselves really isn't a option in the time frame that this gear would be relevant.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

snip

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QFT.

10 char min. 1000 char max.
*sigh*

I haven't played much lately, but isn't this a typical catch 22 moment?

To make the big money, you need to craft. To buy end game items you need money. Which means to afford to buy someone elses product, you need to level crafting first and make money, and at that moment the reason to buy from other crafters disappear. The only real market a crafter have to sell to is legacy players and people without crafter friends who are damn good at grinding dungeons for gil. At which point they probably also grind gear and lose the incentive to buy as well.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I haven't played much lately, but isn't this a typical catch 22 moment?

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And such a situation gives birth to a situation where a fully functional economy is impossible.

Honestly if they made it so that you could only pick one Discipline of Hand/Land, and only one forever and if you switched it you would have to level the old one from 1 to 50 again if you switched back, and THEN made it so only those with the set DoH/DoL could gather the materials for those, then they may have a shot at one.

On my server it's better to sell myth mats than the 3 star gear itself. Since the materia cost for grade 4s are around 150k each for savage aim, might, and heaven's eye, very few players want to purchase the gear.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

I know crafters aren't going to win the idea of having crafted gear being better than coil 1-5. But how about make the mats cheaper?

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If what happened to old philo items is any indication, these materials WILL get cheaper over time, to the point where 3 star items will be dirt cheap. They will very likely increase the rate at which you can obtain myths in 2.3 and they might even do that in 2.25.
The stuff is expensive now to make it rare and in demand, so people can make a lot of money from them. Just like how 2 star items were when the game launched.

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Originally Posted by Chayala

-snip-

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I think you are looking at things far bigger than I was. I was only saying only talking about the money making game. Unless the access to goods is severely limited and the price of goods are changed to meet that accordingly, then you'll always have this situation.

Really, all they need to do is give a recipe for top end equivilent gear, and make the mats very rare drops from the toughest content, thus the content would still need to be farmed many times, making the crafted gear just as, if not more-so, rare as the gear drops themselves. Also, it would add more to the player to player market.

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Originally Posted by Tygg

Really, all they need to do is give a recipe for top end equivilent gear, and make the mats very rare drops from the toughest content, thus the content would still need to be farmed many times, making the crafted gear just as, if not more-so, rare as the gear drops themselves. Also, it would add more to the player to player market.

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I don't think that would solve anything. Because the gear is equivalent, that means that the raid gear you already gear will be equal to or just as good. Which brings the question, why go through the hell of getting this when I could just get the gear from the dungeon? Then you add the fact that anyone will be able to roll on it, and you have something on the market going for 999,999,999gil and people asking why its not selling.

Everything ruined the craft! :(

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

I don't think that would solve anything. Because the gear is equivalent, that means that the raid gear you already gear will be equal to or just as good. Which brings the question, why go through the hell of getting this when I could just get the gear from the dungeon? Then you add the fact that anyone will be able to roll on it, and you have something on the market going for 999,999,999gil and people asking why its not selling.

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Because then you have a reason to level a crafting class to create decent gear for the next battle class you intend to level. I don't see any reason not to do this, all it can do is nothing or help the situation.

Well apparently I got a warning for calling it how I see's it. guess I'll put it in a nice way since my email told me about it. Gotta love SE's loveable intimidation tactics as well as their ability to lose customer faith year after year. Bullying people who see huge flaws in your game(big way to keep yourself in business. last time i saw it work was 1.0. Funny huh?). This will probably disappear as well.

To what ultimate says, they're a bit off on choosing only one crafting class. IMO they should handle it like FFXI in a way. Maybe choose one that can be cap level and others end up with a lower cap. This will allow you to make the basic materials. The biggest problem is that they don't keep the basic materials low and you need to HQ them and people already have their HQ gear and they already did all that work. You have a bunch of jerks saying crafters don't belong in the game(Either by saying it flat out or saying stupid crap like not getting crafting in their game, or that crafters feel entitled).

In most games crafters provide very good gear, or utility, or the ability to diversify. You could get a dungeon set or upgrade that to a crafter set and the gear that is above that would be raid set. WoW which they claim to idolize in it's best incarnation made the previous raids easier by adding in better instances that geared you up with better stats than previous dungeons (And in a few cases some of the low end raids) which allowed you to topple the rougher parts of the low end raids. Low end raids often didn't get counted by the high end raiders and they would find pugs. A tank and a few people running pugs through because they were after a specific item would lead to pugs getting more experience and more loot. A natural progression that allows others to go through them even if not super. These people could then go on or lead other pug raids. This was done in EQ, EQ2, WoW, AO and pretty much every other game that had a non toxic community of self entitled jerks who think that they should be able to get everything they want because they pay for the sub, rather than they pay for the sub to explore the world(wow is it bad that I now consider WoW Vanilla Barrens chat to be a haven of civility and tolerance compared to the people who play this game? I'm not targeting anyone. this is the truth from what I see. 'OMG NO SPEED RUN? NOOB'. No relic or Ilevel 90 armor? NOOB! Go make a DPS!)

But none of this can be fixed. Square has made too many bad decisions and they need probably 4-5 expansions to fix it unless they wanna push off msot the people who keep playing(Because they saw what happened when 1.0 finally lost it's players.) This is impossible to do otherwise because they've already screwed the pooch on crafting, gathering, the ratio of mythology/philo stones to mats and the difficulty of getting the gear stacking price, time and effort against crafters. WHY ARE THEY EVEN IN THERE? All because of selfish people who think they shouldn't have to be accountable(as long as i party finder and can get through CT and apparently now coil with echo buff I can be an ass and roll greed on everything or do what I want and it's not like I'll see em again). Yes crucify the crafters for wanting to make a modest profit from the money it took to level the craft, for the time and money it took to get the materials and actually get the armor/melds for their armor to be able to MAKE them. Yes villianize them because you don't want to be beholden to other players because you are all a bunch of people who don't care about anyone but yourself. As proven by the leviathan weapon thread which shows how lazy and greedy you all are and the one about people with level 70+ items rolling greed over someone who can use it and have it at 50. the majority of people responding think it's ok for people not to know the basics of common courtesy. This is likely my last check up on the servers here until my friend tries to get me black and then i just point to the forums t show the type of people I'd rather not deal with.

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Originally Posted by Failia

. They intended for dungeon gear to be better than crafted gear

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True, but when you then get items like the Wolfram Mask for the Dragoon, if melded correctly, is in fact better than both of the i110 Helms. People underestimate crafting too much. Proper and correct i90 penta-melds are far superior to some i110 items. Crafting items aren't useless, not one bit. People just don't know how to optimise them.

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Name          STR    DET        CRT        SS        ACC        VIT        Weight
High Allagan        24        0        18        0        25        28        27.672
Astrum Helm        24        0        0        25        18        28        28.45
Wolfram Mask        18        12        21        21        18        20        29.922

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Wolfram mask, being an i90 craft comes out on top.

A WAR, correctly melded in Wolfram can reach a surplus of 590 Skill Speed, meet accuracy caps AND have high Parry Rates. The increased SS is beneficial for WARs as they can get inner beast stacks out quicker, especially when Selene is out. 590 ss = 2.26 GDC. And with Selene: 590 * 1.3 = 767 SS = 2.09 GDC. So, a normal WAR with Selene will have 501 SS = 2.35 SS. It takes this WAR 14.1 seconds to get 5 Infuriate Stacks. The penta-melded WAR, will do it in 12.54 seconds, or 6.75 abilities in the same time.

So in 30s, WAR 1 would of pulled off 2.1 inner beasts, but WAR 2 will have 2.39 inner beasts. This value adds up a lot in longer fights.

Those are two examples of where Crafting gear can out perform normal coil gear. No one theorycrafts item melds, that's why. Thus, the community just sees the lower numbers and devalues everything.

Chiming in from Zalera server here; at the moment, I'm THE market board 3-star crafter for weaving. The main trick for me has been to set an approximately fair price given the base mats involved. It definitely took a while to get the market rolling, but I've been profiting pretty well since 2.2 hit. I started selling the Cashmere Robe of Healing at 1m gil, and since then I've dropped the price down a touch to 900k gil for the usual 2x terminus + 2x cashmere items. I'd say on average, one item per day sells... which given Zalera, isn't that bad of a thing, lol. (Sometimes it's more, occasionally it's none.)

The biggest annoyance I've had to deal with thus far has been the myth mat sellers. Toward the beginning, sellers were asking 280k per 500 myth item, 100k+ for tawny latex... which would sap a lot of my profit. It's fortunately now down to about 180k-200k per fleece, 70kish per tawny latex; sells have started picking up now that I've been able to drop the price accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Shioban

The gear is perfectly fine as-is. The i90 crafted gear when melded is a great benefit for The Second Coil of Bahamut.

However it's too expensive, it's a slower market and there ARE people who want to buy this gear but it's a HUGE investment.


Excalibur Prices;


http://i.imgur.com/URL3qYA.png

http://i.imgur.com/M8bTh0o.png

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Holy shit, someone just freely tossed 7.5 mil away at whim? Goodness.

Anyways, the economy's gone to hell since 2.2. Prices shot up like crazy since patch. No one even has cash really to buy ilv70 gear anymore, so buying ilv90 crafted gear itself is kinda an after thought. 150k weapons for relic and 50k materia don't help either. Although if anything, I'd rather make an investment first in relic first, as opposed to crafted gear, simply because getting a better weapon makes a bigger difference and a better investment in the long run, cause they're harder to replace. Although, I do understand some reasoning for crafting gear being so expensive because some of the materials required to craft certain crafts drop at such a low ratio, or are just near impossible to find.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

True, but when you then get items like the Wolfram Mask for the Dragoon, if melded correctly, is in fact better than both of the i110 Helms. People underestimate crafting too much. Proper and correct i90 penta-melds are far superior to some i110 items. Crafting items aren't useless, not one bit. People just don't know how to optimise them.

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You aren't taking into account that items also have defense parameters. And 110 ilvl item defense is better than 90 ilvl no matter how melded it is. Yes, it matters.

Has weekly Reset been taken off of Coil?