It's official Parsers are illegal in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Leknaat

Guess they're not going to allow parsing whenever/if ever they make it possible for player add-ons lol

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Player add-ons were originally mentioned by Yoshi as UI add-ons... Not sure why people think the add-ons means parsers...

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Originally Posted by Magnesium02

I was in a Levi Ex party yesterday and one person posted a link to a program that apparently changed the camera angles so you could zoo
out further than normal. I didn't download it cause I prefer not to use 3rd party programs (do t5 with focus target, not app).

I assume that this program is also something ban worthy?

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That program directly modifies the client (being able to move camera more), so its actually less of a legal thing to use than a parser

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Originally Posted by Magnesium02

I was in a Levi Ex party yesterday and one person posted a link to a program that apparently changed the camera angles so you could zoo
out further than normal. I didn't download it cause I prefer not to use 3rd party programs (do t5 with focus target, not app).

I assume that this program is also something ban worthy?

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Probably... As it falls under things that a player normally can't do.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

except the announcement didn't say using parsers is a violation of the TOS like your use of bold suggests. the important part of the message is the part you left unbold... "to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game."

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No you're chosing to ignore the "parsers or other tools "

Basically it's now use at your own peril.

If you are so mad/insecure/butthurt over other people using parsers, maybe you should improve your DPS rotations. I for one would like a parser in the game. So many DPS's in game talks crap about tanks/healers/other DPS when there's a mess up, but they do abysmal DPS themselves.

I suppose DPS in this game tend to think staying alive = high tier dps

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Originally Posted by Leknaat

No you're chosing to ignore the "parsers or other tools "

Basically it's now use at your own peril.

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wait what? you can't just pick a few words out of a sentence and create a whole new sentence.

the statement said "Using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools to conduct actions players would not normally be able to do in the game is a violation of the Terms of Service, and will be dealt with strict disciplinary action." What the statement did not say is "using third-party programs, parsers, or other tools is a violation of the Terms of Service." You can't just skip everything in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

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Neither do I but because 1 person can do certain amount of damage with a certain class/job. When someone else that uses that same job can't do the same. Certain people tend to just straight up put them down or leave the group.

Which is where the problems lies. It gets taken to these extremes just to rush BiS gear and tome farms.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Wrong, it's obvious you never tried World of Warcraft the MMORPG Yoshi-P played to copy this setting, his words.
Parser (not official tool but allowed by Blizzard) is required in raid and people have really easy kick if you don't dps like a bat in the hell. Dps job on FFXIV is really too easy, people easily blame tanks and healers even when they don't deserve that. :p

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I played WoW from launch until just last year. I played through the dreaded Gearscore phase of it's lifetime, to the "Link achievement", to ilvl requirements, etc.

What a lot of people don't realize is that players will ALWAYS create ways to keep others out of content. It really doesn't matter if its parser numbers, ilvl, achievements, gear, or any combination of the above. These abusive and harassing players will not suddenly stop being abusive simply because you take parsers out of their hands. At most, you're just damaging the legitimate players who wish to use these tools in a constructive manner.

This paranoia and fear of creating a toxic environment is going to cause more damage to the game in the long run. Attempting to strip legitimate players of tools and options they can use to improve out of some self-serving fear won't help the game.

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Originally Posted by AznAirLines

They have to say that due to ToS but even Yoshida understands the use of parsers and said in an interview to not run around telling people you use it.

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Thank you. If the producer of the game himself said, just use them at your own risk and don't mention it to others in-game, then why is everyone crying a river about it?

Everyone should've known parsers were against the ToS day 1, don't know why people are still going on about this topic.

They need to keep parsers under 3rd-party tools, as one parser which I will not name, went over the line with a certain "tool" which is no matter however you look at it, a hack. If they didn't put strict rules

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Neither do I but because 1 person can do certain amount of damage with a certain class/job. When someone else that uses that same job can't do the same. Certain people tend to just straight up put them down or leave the group.

Which is where the problems lies. It gets taken to these extremes just to rush BiS gear and tome farms.

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Because players don't research and learn to play their jobs correctly. Trying not to sound elitist here, but if players don't put the time into learning their job and how to correctly play it, then they're also probably not as commited towards end-game content. It's this reason, why players have such a ridiculously poor tolerance towards others, as well as these insane artificial ilvl requirements.

Parsers have been under Fight Club rule since XI times and it hasn't changed with XIV.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Party_Tools May be worth reading.

If we can't anymore use Parser, i will still use my intuition and my nose to find who are the bad one :D

You will be catch slacker :D

Exemple : A blm who will do, Ice III, then fire, fire, fire. Instead of Ice III and Fire III then fire.

I've been telling people it was ban worthy for a long time -_-

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

It will be nice if people will use parser also to help or to fix fight tactics issues

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Parsers don't really fix that. Parsers can only fix people's rotation so, damage dealers damage output performance is desirable, tanks are popping cooldowns to mitigate damage during certain mechanics to stay alive, and making sure healers are healing properly.
The only mod that can help with mechanics would be something akin to WoW's deadly boss mod.

Yet I don't know if that even exists. Yet that type of mod calls out ahead of time when you should dodge or look out for certain abilities. Doesn't tell you how to react to them though that something you need prior knowledge to. Which is something anyone can do already as long as they have a vocal person in their group. Which is why a form of vocal communication is already a sort of necessity for raiding. Yet that mod is less distracting and gets people to actually focus on those mechanics that are happening.

Yoshi said in an interview not so long ago that he doesn't mind people using them, but if they do they should keep it to themselves.

I see no harm in using parsers personally, but I think its more important to play your best and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Kamahil

Cool. I hope everyone that uses a parser is Parma banned

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Now no one will know about your terrible DPS!

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Because players don't research and learn to play their jobs correctly. Trying not to sound elitist here, but if players don't put the time into learning their job and how to correctly play it, then they're also probably not as commited towards end-game content. It's this reason, why players have such a ridiculously poor tolerance towards others, as well as these insane artificial ilvl requirements.

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Which is why that elitist attitude is a hindrance.

There's no such thing as doing "their jobs correctly". It's a game in which we will have different people from across the world. All with their own age and mentality as to how they approached this title.

So personally people playing badly is to be expected. There was no "entrance exam" in which people were judged to see if they were optimal for this game or not.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

It's okay to kick tanks from groups if they're not generating enough aggro. It's okay to kick healers from groups if they're not healing enough.

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no it's not this is an abuse of the vote kick system and can be reported.

The only good type of parser is a self-only parser, and that sort of thing should have been available in-game from day one.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Which is why that elitist attitude is a hindrance.

There's no such thing as doing "their jobs correctly". It's a game in which we will have different people from across the world. All with their own age and mentality as to how they approached this title.

So personally people playing badly is to be expected. There was no "entrance exam" in which people were judged to see if they were optimal for this game or not.

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No such thing as "doing their jobs correctly"?

That is one of the most ignorant and naive things I've ever read on the internet. Holy moly.

This game gives you an objective to kill a boss. In order to kill the boss, the group needs to deal a certain amount of damage. The healers need to heal the damage that the boss deals to the party. The tanks need to generate enough threat to prevent the boss from killing the party.

There are set parameters that need to be met in order for the party to be successful and each player in their respective class is given the tools necessary to meet these parameters. In order to successfully meet them, they need to perform the necessary actions at the right times. If the group collectively fails to do so, they cannot advance.

If you fail to adequately perform your duty, you prevent your team from being able to complete the objective and achieve victory.

So yes, there is such thing as "not doing your job correctly". If you don't do the right things, you will lose. That's how video games work.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

no it's not this is an abuse of the vote kick system and can be reported.

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Fair enough. If the problematic people cannot be legitimately removed, then the only option is for the good players who wish to complete the content to leave and try their luck with a better group. So, why do you scrubs complain when people leave fail groups?

S-E can only do so much to protect you from your own failures.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Wrong, it's obvious you never tried World of Warcraft the MMORPG Yoshi-P played to copy this setting, his words.
Parser (not official tool but allowed by Blizzard) is required in raid and people have really easy kick if you don't dps like a bat in the hell. Dps job on FFXIV is really too easy, people easily blame tanks and healers even when they don't deserve that. :p

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God, am I happy I never needed to do that. We used a dps-meter to reach the best set-up for a particular boss in Wow, but we never needed to see if someone was playing badly, because, you know, in "real" raiding you wouldn't have a member that played badly anyway. Most bad players can easily be spotted by their movement and/or skillusage (especially uptime of buffs/debuffs) and you don't even remotely need a parser for that. Also parsers have a huuuge downside. I've seen this in so many random groups it's not even funny, but a parser makes people play WORSE.

"If I move out of this AoE I will lose some DPS! Stupid heal can heal me so I am 1st in DPS!!!!" (and yes, in raidfinder for example the guys with the highest DPS were nearly always the ones with most damage taken)

TL;DR: A good raidlead won't need a parser. While it might be helpful at squeezing out those last 1-2% only weak players will need it to judge playskill. No offense to you, but your comments sound ignorant of this and you do sound like one of those "OMG IM FIRST ON DPS L2P PARTY LOL" dudes^^

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Fair enough. If the problematic people cannot be legitimately removed, then the only option is for the good players who wish to complete the content to leave and try their luck with a better group. So, why do you scrubs complain when people leave fail groups?

S-E can only do so much to protect you from your own failures.

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i find it rather rude to bunch me with people from me merely correcting your false statement.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Player add-ons were originally mentioned by Yoshi as UI add-ons... Not sure why people think the add-ons means parsers...

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Add-ons cover a LOT of ground. Parsers, DPS meters, threat meters, raid tools (DBM, Big Wigs), Custom UI stuff (raid frames and pop ups for procs), class and job tools (PallyPower, CLC Ret), minigames, the pokemon addon. That's mentioning a few.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Fair enough. If the problematic people cannot be legitimately removed, then the only option is for the good players who wish to complete the content to leave and try their luck with a better group. So, why do you scrubs complain when people leave fail groups?

S-E can only do so much to protect you from your own failures.

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The problematic people can easily be removed. Guide them. If you're such a good player you should be able to do so.
I admit that sometimes there will be morrons that are playing badly and misbehaving when you tell them KINDLY(!) that they're screwing up, but they're not met that often that it would be a huge problem.

If a group really gets dragged down by one person why not ask them if they would be kind enough to leave? It happens and it might be due to various reasons you don't know of.

At this point I'm fairly sure you're either a scrub or a troll, but for the sake of the argument. Generally speaking most people that call others scrubs are the ones that need to hide their own mishaps. Those are also most often the people posing with their parsers from my experience (how often have I read "One fail = kick!" and directly in the 1st try the person that started the group would fail, die and type something like "lol, sorry, had a huge lagg!").
While this might or might not be true for you, your ignorance is unmatched here, congrats :) People like you are the poison that spoils the community and keeps a lot of players from getting better.

Parser is necessary also for yourself: you will notice or understand what is wrong in your rotation.

I've always said this and I'll say it again: First to cry parser wins.

Amazing how many times I'd hear about parsing and arguments between people in 2.0. Not so much now.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with parsing as a tool to improve one's dps as well as a variety of other reasonable uses. I guaranty Yoshi and the game designers have in game development tools that do the same thing. It's a valuable tool for creating new builds and strategy's as well as monitoring ones own growth and development.

The one and only problem is that some people choose to use this information to ridicule and demoralize people. That right there is the only way people will ever get in trouble in the future for parsing. When someone reports you for trolling them and they have a chat log that implicates you as having parsed. I doubt they will ever develop or maintain perimeters to actively search for clients that are parsing.

I think its safe to assume that anyone who using parsing as a tool for themselves and their FC mates as a learning tool only it should not be an issue. Just don't troll some random in game for having bad dps.

I've already seen insane EPEEN attitudes thanks to Parsers, it's disgusting... people tunnel visioning boss and refusing to kill adds just to get their number at the top.

gross.

This has been widely known since launch...

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

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All you did was rant pointlessly over 4 words. You provided me with nothing I already didn't know. On the other hand you neglected a dozen of variables because you let that pointless rage cloud your judgement.

Maybe if you stopped being such an elitist you would notice it but it seems you wont.

Call me ignorant and naive. Lash out at me all you want. It is not gonna make all the bad players go away nor will it magically make them better. Though thanks for that hilarious notion you consider enlightenment.

So nice to see the parser debate continue. See SE has no problem with what the parser does. Just as a company they cannot endorse a third party program. As a side now te, no parser except their internal one is accurate. Those if you claiming that parsers can read dot damage are highly mistaken. Dot damage in parsers is estimated by the parser.

But anyway the main problem SE has with these third party parsers is the harassment players receive. Honestly of people weren't being harassed daily for "bad DPS" these discussions wouldn't exist.

Attempting to ban players for the use of a simple tool designed to gauge the effectiveness of themselves and others around them just because it can be used to show someone bad at dps that they're bad at dps is pretty stupid. If they're going forward with this one they may as well ban the use of keyboards, you can hurt peoples feelings with those too.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

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That's not a problem with the parser, it's a problem with the person. And while I agree with you that parsers can often become a catalyst for toxic behavior, that doesn't mean that they can't be used constructively and responsibly. Some people see parse results as way for players to flex their epeen and compete with one another when they should be cooperating with each other, but you fail to see the value in players having a DPS metric to evaluate themselves and each other.

I also understand that some players don't care about being the best player they can be. Not everybody plays this game at the same level of intensity as I do. This is fine and I respect that.

However, the absence of a parser creates a double-standard where tanks and healers are required to perform but DPS is not. If a tank sucks, he will fail to manage aggro or not position properly and the group will criticize him for it. If a healer sucks, people will die from lack of healing and the group will criticize him for it. If DPS sucks, nobody knows because they don't have or can't talk about the statistical data to show it. Even if you were allowed to talk about it, remember: parsers are generally frowned upon by the average player and you have a good chance being considered as an elitist and a toxic member of the community.

The end result: DDs are exempt from the stardard of play that the Tanks and Healers are held to. Unlike Tanks and Healers whose inadequacies are obvious, when a DD is incompetent at his class, this fact is hidden from everyone including the DD himself.

How is this fair? Can you not see how this would affect the enjoyment of Tanks and Healers who are actually trying to learn their class? In both video games and in the real world people are MUCH MUCH MUCH more open and receptive to criticism if they know that everyone else is being held to the same standard and that constructive criticism is a two-way street.

Criticism is not spread evenly amongst all players. The weight is put on half of them. Wait, did I say "half"? It's actually much less than half as evidenced by DPS queue times, probably because nobody wants to play a class where they can't learn and improve on the same terms as DPS. It's a matter of fact: The lack of incentive for DPS to improve affects the willingness for everyone else to improve.

This is why parsers are needed by anyone who plays this game at any level of intensity. I understand and agree that sometimes it's abused and a catalyst for toxic behavior but it's no difference than people who berate tanks and healers when they fail at their job.

Punish toxic behavior, not parsers.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Attempting to ban players for the use of a simple tool designed to gauge the effectiveness of themselves and others around them just because it can be used to show someone bad at dps that they're bad at dps is pretty stupid. If they're going forward with this one they may as well ban the use of keyboards, you can hurt peoples feelings with those too.

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My guess is they're trying to set precedent to discourage addons. After talking about addons and then doing this effective 180, I can't say I am pleased.

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Originally Posted by Kamahil

You must be a parser user since you defend them.

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lol sounds like you've been told your dps sucks one too many times...

Thing is "if" addons are still on the cards ... (its gone very quiet on that front)

There is no way they will be able to keep parser out of the game and its even more unlikely they will be able to detect them either.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

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The absent or parsers isn't that bad. It doesn't go to those extremes.

Regardless I agree toxic behavior needs to be punished or at least attended to. Sadly there's no efficient way to do so.

Good luck discovering accuracy caps.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

The absent or parsers isn't that bad. It doesn't go to those extremes.

Regardless I agree toxic behavior needs to be punished or at least attended to. Sadly there's no efficient way to do so.

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The absence of parsers IS bad. Maybe not at the casual level, but this game is supposed to appeal to players who play at all levels of intensity, is it not?

The importance and usefulness of parsers for the purpose of evaluation and self-improvement (and the improvement of your teammates) cannot be understated. Behind all the pretty sprites, flashy graphics and cool animations is a vast game of mathematics. Mastery of this game depends on understanding and applying math, and none of this is possible without access to numerical data.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

This is why parsers are needed by anyone who plays this game at any level of intensity. I understand and agree that sometimes it's abused and a catalyst for toxic behavior but it's no difference than people who berate tanks and healers when they fail at their job.

Punish toxic behavior, not parsers.

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At your level of intensity, you shouldn't need a parser to watch what is going on... As a tank, you should be able to watch what is going on around you. And while it is much easier to see a bad tank or healer, it really isn't difficult to find a player lacking in skill.